Oppinions on abortion?

[Keronians]

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

I put the idea of a girl being forced to carry her rapists child right up there with the old Jewish law that let men off if they married their rape victim.

That's all great. I'm just attacking that argument.

Saying: "we cannot say that abortion is wrong because you've never been pregnant" is like saying "I cannot say that rape is wrong because I've never been raped".

[The Murtunian Tribes]

WAAAAAAAAAAY to goddam long to quote. PLease start breaking up your responses or something.

1. I'm failing to see your point. Wanting the baby dead is not a valid reason in it of itself, just as wanting a full grown adult dead is not a valid reason in it of itself to commit murder. I'm sure you're gonna say that somehow translates into abortion being wrong, and news flash, you're probably right. But as it has no apparent negative side effect to society (indeed, we could do with a lower birth rate), that doesn't translate into it being illegalized. Wrong=/=illegal. Infanticide however has to be illegal basically because the line DOES need to be drawn at some point. I'm sure I COULD sit here and give a dozen reasons why infanticide could be legal, but I wont because it invites too many questions. How old is too old? What do we do with the bodies? What kind of forms and paperwork needs to filled out? Do both parents need to agree, and how could pre-nups affect this agreement? On and on. I think personhood is a perfectly valid place to draw the "Not ok to kill" line at.
2. A logical reason is 1) Has an apparent or provable negative consequence to society at large and 2) Is not based on falsifiable or debatable facts. Anti-abortion arguments are based on the fact that a fetus=a child, or the even more ridiculous assertion embryo=child. Both are categorically untrue. A fetus only equals a fetus; an embryo an embryo. If you want we can also sit here and argue about whether or not human rights even exist at all. That's the fundamental problem with all pro-life arguments. It assumes an ethical maxim (where life begins) that, bottom line, is not a given fact and is only subjectively true. Whereas pro-choice arguments assume that either doesn't exist (like Great Nepal, I think) or it's irrelevant to the law (myself).
4. I guess that might be a valid point, although to be fair it would still only apply to people who are in the custody of the US government or it's states, as opposed to all persons universally. People arrested in the DPRK, for example, still do not have this right, despite the fact the Constitution says they should because they're people. I think it's probably better to not look at it so much as a given right as a restriction on the government's rights to prosecute people, be they citizens or foreign nationals. But that's not really the point; it still falls on you to prove that a fetus actually constitutes a person. Also, as another point, the right to life is not explicit, even to citizens, as evidenced by the death penalty.
7. Again, prove it. PROVE that a fetus=a child. Then PROVE that that should mean something in the eyes of the law. And by prove, I want empirical, objective evidence, not opinion. If you can't provide any, I have no use for anything you say.

[Shuggy555]

kk sorry i couldn't respond to people but i was sleeping

yes the baby or fetus or what ever you wont to call it is inside her body but it is far from abart of her it was created by the father and the mother they should both have a say

and yes the mother may have to physicaly suffer for several months but the father is now basicly finantiualy screwed over for the next 18 years eglest for something he might or might not of wanted and he doesn't get a say if the child he so wanted died or the child he didn't want sap him dry

and what about male rape victams there not as commen but as you should know 90% of female rape cases are false

so back to the male rape victom what happens if his rapist gets pregnent and has the child so not only was he raped he hased to pay child support for the next 18 years

[DaWoad]

kk sorry i couldn't respond to people but i was sleeping

no worries real life comes first

yes the baby or fetus or what ever you wont to call it is inside her body but it is far from abart of her it was created by the father and the mother they should both have a say

no. They shouldn't. The father doesn't get to have any say with what a woman does with her simply because she slept with him.

and yes the mother may have to physicaly suffer for several months

yep

but the father is now basicly finantiualy screwed over for the next 18 years eglest for something he might or might not of wanted

nope. He has to support the child, for the sake of the child but that by no means he is "financially screwed".

and he doesn't get a say if the child he so wanted died or the child he didn't want sap him dry

[citation needed] on that happening on a regular basis

and what about male rape victams there not as commen but as you should know 90% of female rape cases are false

[citation needed]

so back to the male rape victom what happens if his rapist gets pregnent and has the child so not only was he raped he hased to pay child support for the next 18 years

[citation needed]
(show me a single case where that's occurred.

[Shuggy555]

kk sorry i couldn't respond to people but i was sleeping

no worries real life comes first

yes the baby or fetus or what ever you wont to call it is inside her body but it is far from abart of her it was created by the father and the mother they should both have a say

no. They shouldn't. The father doesn't get to have any say with what a woman does with her simply because she slept with him.

and yes the mother may have to physicaly suffer for several months

yep

but the father is now basicly finantiualy screwed over for the next 18 years eglest for something he might or might not of wanted

nope. He has to support the child, for the sake of the child but that by no means he is "financially screwed".

and he doesn't get a say if the child he so wanted died or the child he didn't want sap him dry

[citation needed] on that happening on a regular basis
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7632441/The-E ... al-Impact-
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-c ... ney-50923/
not the best but it will do

and what about male rape victams there not as commen but as you should know 90% of female rape cases are false

[citation needed]
http://www.angryharry.com/esrapeillusion.htm?note
http://www.prayergear.com/thousandsfals ... tions.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ap ... 256C880914

so back to the male rape victom what happens if his rapist gets pregnent and has the child so not only was he raped he hased to pay child support for the next 18 years

[citation needed]
(show me a single case where that's occurred.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/lo ... ml?sid=101

[Wiztopia]

no worries real life comes first

no. They shouldn't. The father doesn't get to have any say with what a woman does with her simply because she slept with him.

yep

nope. He has to support the child, for the sake of the child but that by no means he is "financially screwed".

[citation needed] on that happening on a regular basis
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7632441/The-E ... al-Impact-
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-c ... ney-50923/
not the best but it will do


[citation needed]
http://www.angryharry.com/esrapeillusion.htm?note
http://www.prayergear.com/thousandsfals ... tions.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ap ... 256C880914

[citation needed]
(show me a single case where that's occurred.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/lo ... ml?sid=101

That was consensual sex obviously. So he wasn't raped.

[Shuggy555]

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/lo ... ml?sid=101

That was consensual sex obviously. So he wasn't raped.

he was underage he isn't old enough to consent yet so its child rape....

[DaWoad]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7632441/The-E ... al-Impact-
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-c ... ney-50923/
not the best but it will do

no, it won't. Primarily because your sources are, in essence, full of shit. That second source, for example, claims that the man is being sued for "display his greif". That's not true. He's being sued for slander because his ex lost a child (she didn't actually have an abortion the guy's just an idiot). There's an entire NS thread on it here. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116587

http://www.angryharry.com/esrapeillusion.htm?note
http://www.prayergear.com/thousandsfals ... tions.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ap ... 256C880914

again, your sources do not back up your claims. Wiki for example, states vbery clearly that the suspected percentage ranges from 1.5 to 90 with those being extremes. Provide definitive proof that 90% are false or withdraw your claim sir.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/lo ... ml?sid=101

you need to start reading your own sources. You really really do.

[Wiztopia]

That was consensual sex obviously. So he wasn't raped.

he was underage he isn't old enough to consent yet so its child rape....

Oh wow you are really ignorant.

1) A teen is not a child so it is not child rape. It isn't even child molestation.

2) The woman is not an actual rapist if he wanted it.

People think teens can't consent and they are fucking morons. Just read this quote: "It is an age and maturity issue, not a gender issue," Dillon said. "He's a young boy coming into his own, being taken advantage of by an adult."

What a fucking idiot.

[Bazlantis]

I support abortion, I believe it is a woman's right to choose whether she wishes to have the baby or not but I also think it is important that the father's wishes are taken in account also.

[Grave_n_idle]

Nulano, I haz a question.

Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies?

Um, I'm 17 years old.

So it's okay for you to refuse to accept a child, even with no medical risk to yourself, just because you're young and unprepared.

The amount of cognitive dissonance on the 'pro-life' side of the debate is deafening.

[Galloism]

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/lo ... ml?sid=101

That was consensual sex obviously. So he wasn't raped.

Having sex you didn't or couldn't consent to is pretty well the definition of rape.

[Wiztopia]

That was consensual sex obviously. So he wasn't raped.

Having sex you didn't or couldn't consent to is pretty well the definition of rape.

Only ignorant people think a teen can't consent to sex. Especially a male one with an older woman.

[Secular Sweden]

What's all the fuss?

[Keronians]

Having sex you didn't or couldn't consent to is pretty well the definition of rape.

Only ignorant people think a teen can't consent to sex. Especially a male one with an older woman.

Actually, the law thinks a teen under 16, I believe it is in the US, can't consent to sex.

And why to the bolded. Why does being male make it any different? I'd understand the other way around, given that girls tend to mature faster than boys...

[UCUMAY]

Having sex you didn't or couldn't consent to is pretty well the definition of rape.

Only ignorant people think a teen can't consent to sex. Especially a male one with an older woman.

Let's work to change the age of consent laws.

[Keronians]

Only ignorant people think a teen can't consent to sex. Especially a male one with an older woman.

Let's work to change the age of consent laws.

Speak for yourself. I'm quite happy with the one in my country.

Unless you don't think 13 is alright, that is.

[UCUMAY]

Let's work to change the age of consent laws.

Speak for yourself. I'm quite happy with the one in my country.

Unless you don't think 13 is alright, that is.

13 is fine. 18 is high. Please remember I'm from the US.

[-St George]

Speak for yourself. I'm quite happy with the one in my country.

Unless you don't think 13 is alright, that is.

13 is fine. 18 is high. Please remember I'm from the US.

Who pays attention to Age of Consent laws anyway?

[UCUMAY]

13 is fine. 18 is high. Please remember I'm from the US.

Who pays attention to Age of Consent laws anyway?

No one until they get put on the sexual offenders' list.

[Conserative Morality]

13 is fine. 18 is high. Please remember I'm from the US.

13 is a child. 16 is fine.

I'm from the USA.

[UCUMAY]

13 is fine. 18 is high. Please remember I'm from the US.

13 is a child. 16 is fine.

I'm from the USA.

Reducing the age from 18 is what makes sense, and that was my point.

[Conserative Morality]

Reducing the age from 18 is what makes sense, and that was my point.

The age only needs to be reduced in some states. Many states have 16 as age of consent.

[-St George]

13 is fine. 18 is high. Please remember I'm from the US.

13 is a child. 16 is fine.

I'm from the USA.

Move to the East Coast?

[UCUMAY]

13 is a child. 16 is fine.

I'm from the USA.

Move to the East Coast?

Oklahoma is a closer option for me.