Oppinions on abortion?

[-St George]

In Mytandium, you must apply to a Democratic counsel that determines via vote whether or not you must keep or abort. The Majority get's the decision, for everything effects society, and thus everything must be put to a vote. La Muerte a Socrates!!

This is not an IC forum. We're talking about real life abortion here.

Tell that to Syvorji.

Or NN.

[Ashmoria]

This is not an IC forum. We're talking about real life abortion here.

Tell that to Syvorji.

Or NN.

syvorji doesnt answer as his nation but as a character that he has developed.

we can deal with one of those.

[Deppreeve]

What about rape survivors? (I refuse to use the word 'victim'.) Speaking as a rape survivor (at the tender age of 14), had I become pregnant as a result (I didn't, thankfully), there is no doubt in my mind that I would have terminated that pregnancy.
It's all very well these people who have not been in a situation like that (or in some cases are male and couldn't be) sitting there going "it's wrong" but there is a lot more to it than a girl or woman saying "okay I'll just get rid of it then". There is emotional and mental anguish in a decision such as that.
I think it's pretty disgusting that the anti-abortion brigade expect a girl to carry a stranger's child for nine months whatever age she may be or how traumatic the whole thing is. Some of those poor girls come out of abortion clinics and have the further distress of being called a murderer. Hasn't she been through enough?
I say, if you haven't been in the situation and do not know what it feels like, you should keep your mouth shut and not judge them, because you don't always know the circumstances of the pregnancy.

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

After all that I just said, that's what you come back with? How can it be murder if it isn't a 'person' yet? It's a seed. It cannot think, see etc - because those organs have not developed yet. You are more concerned about something that isn't a developed person yet, rather than the welfare of the girl who had this foisted upon her. I can see there is no reasoning with you because you skipped right over what I tried to explain to you and dismissed it completely.

[Shuggy555]

I'm pro abortion as long as both parents get a say in it inless the impregnation is done without the consent of one of the parents to witch it should be the victoms decision to terminate or not but as for normal impregnation both parents should get a say if there child will live or not...

[Dempublicents1]

I'm pro abortion as long as both parents get a say in it

(a) Why should anyone other than me make medical decisions for me?
(b) How would that work, exactly? If they disagree, does the woman have half an abortion?

[Wiztopia]

I'm pro abortion as long as both parents get a say in it inless the impregnation is done without the consent of one of the parents to witch it should be the victoms decision to terminate or not but as for normal impregnation both parents should get a say if there child will live or not...

Men cannot have abortions so they cannot have a say.

[Saint Ferdinand]

Pro-choice. I am personally against abortion but I understand that it's not my decision to make.

[Bitchkitten]

What about rape survivors? (I refuse to use the word 'victim'.) Speaking as a rape survivor (at the tender age of 14), had I become pregnant as a result (I didn't, thankfully), there is no doubt in my mind that I would have terminated that pregnancy.
It's all very well these people who have not been in a situation like that (or in some cases are male and couldn't be) sitting there going "it's wrong" but there is a lot more to it than a girl or woman saying "okay I'll just get rid of it then". There is emotional and mental anguish in a decision such as that.
I think it's pretty disgusting that the anti-abortion brigade expect a girl to carry a stranger's child for nine months whatever age she may be or how traumatic the whole thing is. Some of those poor girls come out of abortion clinics and have the further distress of being called a murderer. Hasn't she been through enough?
I say, if you haven't been in the situation and do not know what it feels like, you should keep your mouth shut and not judge them, because you don't always know the circumstances of the pregnancy.

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

I put the idea of a girl being forced to carry her rapists child right up there with the old Jewish law that let men off if they married their rape victim.

[GSSR]

no one have the right to tell a woman what to do and what not to do with her body

Yes they do

[Deppreeve]

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

I put the idea of a girl being forced to carry her rapists child right up there with the old Jewish law that let men off if they married their rape victim.

Exactly! Thank you!

[Prometheos]

no one have the right to tell a woman what to do and what not to do with her body

Yes they do

Xxzxcuzx me?

Who, then? The government? Men? I think not.

[Bitchkitten]

no one have the right to tell a woman what to do and what not to do with her body

Yes they do

Where the hell do you live, Afghanistan?

[Wiztopia]

Yes they do

Where the hell do you live, Afghanistan?

Nah. He's from Kitchenistan.

[Peoples New Norway]

I'm pro abortion as long as both parents get a say in it inless the impregnation is done without the consent of one of the parents to witch it should be the victoms decision to terminate or not but as for normal impregnation both parents should get a say if there child will live or not...

Wouldn't it really be up to the mother? I mean its hers until its born.

What the fuck is bad about abortion anyway? Everyone's saying their pro-choice but against abortion.

[Dempublicents1]

What the fuck is bad about abortion anyway? Everyone's saying their pro-choice but against abortion.

I see abortion in much the same way that I see organ and tissue donation. I think everyone who can should donate blood, be on a bone marrow registry, and be an organ donor, but I would never advocate forcing that by law.

I'm pro-choice, but I will have an opinion as to whether or not deciding to carry to term is a good decision.

[Vermmeria]

I think there should be a limit to the amount of abortions you can have in a lifetime or other a period of time, 3 maybe. Make an exception for rape obviously, but if you get pregnant accidentally a third time, you should have learnt from the last two times. And if you just can't be bothered to have a kid... tough. If you're too young to have children, like under 18 then maybe this limit should be lifted but... there's a lot of factors to consider. A LOT of factors.

[Vermmeria]

I don't like abortion, but I'm not necessarily against it either. Personally, if I were a woman, it wouldn't be my choice because I don't want to kill something that's living, but that doesn't mean I want to stop other women from getting one.

I'm sure you;ve killed something before? We've all stood on an ant at some point

alliteration just there:)

[Dempublicents1]

I think there should be a limit to the amount of abortions you can have in a lifetime or other a period of time, 3 maybe. Make an exception for rape obviously, but if you get pregnant accidentally a third time, you should have learnt from the last two times. And if you just can't be bothered to have a kid... tough. If you're too young to have children, like under 18 then maybe this limit should be lifted but... there's a lot of factors to consider. A LOT of factors.

If you break your leg 3 times, should they just refuse to set it? After all, if you break your leg a third time, you should have learned from the last two times. And if you can't be bothered to use a crutch for the rest of your life....tough.

[Great Nepal]

Human being is not a parasite.
Fetus is a parasite.
Fetus is not Human being.

Human being is not a parasite.
Fetus is a human being.
Fetus is not a parasite.
http://l4l.org/library/notparas.html

Since, you simply linked to a website; I will simply unravel the wrongs of the website creator's opinion.

a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

a) Not according to biological definition.
b) Which shows nothing; since it is simply worded in different way.

a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.

a) Not according to biological definition, provided above.
b) Already refuted due to refutation of its base, point (a)

a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.
b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

a & b) Bullshit. Tapeworm does not cause 1000 deaths a day, fetus does.

a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).
b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

a) Again, not according to biological definition.
b) Parasite does not have to make direct contact and the fetus is making contact (through one way or other).

5 a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).
b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

6a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)
b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

5&6 a&b) Underlined part refutes itself.

a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.
b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

a&b) False as already shown above. Fetus is by far most dangerous parasite which causes 1000 deaths a day.

a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).
b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

a)Not according to biological definition provided above.
b) Irrelevant due to refutation of point (a).

[Alevuss]

Pro-choice or pro-life? I personally am pro-choice because it is hard to call abortion murder when the baby isn't developed enough to think or feel.

Opinions?

I think I agree a bit with the OP.

I am, indeed, pro-choice.

[Nulono]

1. Uhhh..yea, adoption. Don't worry, they will take the baby.
2. No.
3. Fair enough.
4. Whatever, I don't care anymore about that.
5. No, I don't. The Constitution ONLY gives rights to citizens as defined by the Constitution. You're right in your statement that the Constitution does not define personhood, but as Constitutional rights do not apply to all persons (only citizens) stating that all people have the right to life is quite irrelevant. If it did, Roe v Wade would have been a very different ruling.
7. Nobody's dieing from abortion. Except maybe through the occasional complication.

1. That's not an alternative if she wants the baby dead, or gone RIGHT NOW.
2. What's illogical about it? What would be a more logical reason?
5. No, the Constitution gives some rights to citizens and some to persons.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

'
7. Millions are dying.

I don't like abortion, but I'm not necessarily against it either. Personally, if I were a woman, it wouldn't be my choice because I don't want to kill something that's living, but that doesn't mean I want to stop other women from getting one.

Would you stop other women from committing infanticide?

What about rape survivors? (I refuse to use the word 'victim'.) Speaking as a rape survivor (at the tender age of 14), had I become pregnant as a result (I didn't, thankfully), there is no doubt in my mind that I would have terminated that pregnancy.
It's all very well these people who have not been in a situation like that (or in some cases are male and couldn't be) sitting there going "it's wrong" but there is a lot more to it than a girl or woman saying "okay I'll just get rid of it then". There is emotional and mental anguish in a decision such as that.
I think it's pretty disgusting that the anti-abortion brigade expect a girl to carry a stranger's child for nine months whatever age she may be or how traumatic the whole thing is. Some of those poor girls come out of abortion clinics and have the further distress of being called a murderer. Hasn't she been through enough?
I say, if you haven't been in the situation and do not know what it feels like, you should keep your mouth shut and not judge them, because you don't always know the circumstances of the pregnancy.

So the child deserves to be killed for the father's crime? The rapist should be castrated with a hot stick, but the child is innocent. On a side note, was your rapist prosecuted?

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

After all that I just said, that's what you come back with? How can it be murder if it isn't a 'person' yet? It's a seed. It cannot think, see etc - because those organs have not developed yet. You are more concerned about something that isn't a developed person yet, rather than the welfare of the girl who had this foisted upon her. I can see there is no reasoning with you because you skipped right over what I tried to explain to you and dismissed it completely.

Since when does not being able to see have anything to do with your right to live?

Pro-choice. I am personally against abortion but I understand that it's not my decision to make.

Why are you personally against abortion?

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

I put the idea of a girl being forced to carry her rapists child right up there with the old Jewish law that let men off if they married their rape victim.

You'd rather the sins of the parents be visited upon the child?

I'm pro abortion as long as both parents get a say in it inless the impregnation is done without the consent of one of the parents to witch it should be the victoms decision to terminate or not but as for normal impregnation both parents should get a say if there child will live or not...

Wouldn't it really be up to the mother? I mean its hers until its born.

What the fuck is bad about abortion anyway? Everyone's saying their pro-choice but against abortion.

Abortion takes the life of an innocent human being.

I think there should be a limit to the amount of abortions you can have in a lifetime or other a period of time, 3 maybe. Make an exception for rape obviously, but if you get pregnant accidentally a third time, you should have learnt from the last two times. And if you just can't be bothered to have a kid... tough. If you're too young to have children, like under 18 then maybe this limit should be lifted but... there's a lot of factors to consider. A LOT of factors.

If the fetus has no right to live, why put any limits on abortion?

I don't like abortion, but I'm not necessarily against it either. Personally, if I were a woman, it wouldn't be my choice because I don't want to kill something that's living, but that doesn't mean I want to stop other women from getting one.

I'm sure you;ve killed something before? We've all stood on an ant at some point

alliteration just there:)

What alliteration?

Human being is not a parasite.
Fetus is a human being.
Fetus is not a parasite.
http://l4l.org/library/notparas.html

Since, you simply linked to a website; I will simply unravel the wrongs of the website creator's opinion.

a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

a) Not according to biological definition.
b) Which shows nothing; since it is simply worded in different way.

a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.

a) Not according to biological definition, provided above.
b) Already refuted due to refutation of its base, point (a)

a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.
b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

a & b) Bullshit. Tapeworm does not cause 1000 deaths a day, fetus does.

a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).
b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

a) Again, not according to biological definition.
b) Parasite does not have to make direct contact and the fetus is making contact (through one way or other).

5 a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).
b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

6a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)
b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

5&6 a&b) Underlined part refutes itself.

a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.
b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

a&b) False as already shown above. Fetus is by far most dangerous parasite which causes 1000 deaths a day.

a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).
b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

a)Not according to biological definition provided above.
b) Irrelevant due to refutation of point (a).

The article cited its source for the definition. As far as harm, percentages would be more representative than raw numbers.

[-St George]

Nulano, I haz a question.

Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies?

[Nulono]

Nulano, I haz a question.

Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies?

Um, I'm 17 years old. Why do I have to adopt anyone to say it's wrong to kill people? Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies?

[-St George]

Nulano, I haz a question.

Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies?

Um, I'm 17 years old. Why do I have to adopt anyone to say it's wrong to kill people? Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies?

Hypothetical situation time:

Abortion in America is illegalised. In all circumstances.

According to the CDC, 827,609 abortions occurred in America in 2007, the latest year for which figures are available. Now, aside from 2007 having the second lowest number of abortions since 1974, in 2005 there were 513,000 children in foster care in the United States. Assuming that number stayed exactly the same (unlikely), that is 1,340,609 more children in foster, and that's just in 2007.

Now, let's factor in how many children are adopted each year. In 2001, 127,407 adoptions occurred in the US. Two fifths were kinship, tribal or private agency adoptions, with kinship adoptions likely being the vast majority (in 1992 Stepparent adoptions, a form of kinship adoption, made up 42% of all adoptions), so let's take off 50,000 or so from that.

Assuming that adoption statistics made a jump of 13,000 or so in the ten years since 2001, let's put the figure of adoptions that weren't kinship or tribal adoptions at 100,000. So, for every 1 adoption, 7 children would be added to the care system.

In ten years, the number of children in care wouldn't 1.3 million, it would be knocking on for 7.5 million, perhaps more. So, unless the US government bans giving children up for adoption, the already overstretched and underfunded care system will collapse from the strain of the better part of three quarters of a million unwanted children added each year.

If you are against abortion then you should do your part, before the government has to start billeting children in people's homes, and adopt 10 unwanted babies.

[Keronians]

So then I say you can't say that murder is wrong because you've never been murdered. You should not judge murderers, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.

After all that I just said, that's what you come back with? How can it be murder if it isn't a 'person' yet? It's a seed. It cannot think, see etc - because those organs have not developed yet. You are more concerned about something that isn't a developed person yet, rather than the welfare of the girl who had this foisted upon her. I can see there is no reasoning with you because you skipped right over what I tried to explain to you and dismissed it completely.

*Sigh*

Reading comprehension. Get some of it.

When I said "murder", I wasn't referring to the foetus. At all. If I kill Barrack Obama, you can't say it's wrong because nobody's ever murdered you. You should not judge me, because you don't always know the circumstances of the crime.