Oppinions on abortion?

[Nulono]

Not all options. Infanticide, for instance, should be off the table.

Infanticide is not an alternative to abortion because it does not terminate pregnancy

The same could be said about ANYTHING that's illegal!

Well, yea. The question is whether or not there's an actual need for it to be illegal. No one needs to hunt down Jane Doe for not carrying her baby to term.

Because it makes a lot more sense to punish the baby with death for the parents having sex.

There is no baby, first off. Second, yes, yes it does.

When is murder excellent?

Let's go with Hitler. Wouldn't you have killed Hitler, if you knew what he was plannig on doing? Or Bin Laden?

So it should be legal because it's legal?

Not, it should be legal because there is no reason for it to be illegal. By default, that should make it legal. Anything else is tyranny.

Let's not go down this road.

Yea, that's not relevant to any of this.

Many things have been legal and not harmed social cohesion, yet we changed them because they were wrong. Infanticide, slavery, sexism, ad astra.

Are you seriously suggesting that slavery has never affected social cohesion? SERIOUSLY? Also infanitcide is bad for social cohesion, for every reason murder is. And sexism is not explicitly illegal either.

Most of the answers to you other posts are that fetuses=/=children. Fetus<child. Honestly this post is just way too damn long.

1. It is an alternative to how to deal with an unwanted child.
2. If Jane Doe kills her offspring, there should be some sort of repercussions.
3. First off, [url=wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=baby]yes there is[/url]. Secondly, how so?
4. No, I wouldn't've. I would've given Hitler art lessons as a child and given Bin Laden mental help. Even if it were absolutely necessary to murder them, it would still be a necessary evil, not an "excellent" thing.
5. It should be illegal because it violates the right to live of the fetus.
7. Many societies used infanticide to their benefit, for example weeding out the weak. Sparta, IIRC, prospered. As far as sexism, I was referring to codified sexism, such as spousal rape, lack of suffrage, et cetera.

Offspring ⊂ Child
Fetus ⊂ Offspring
Fetus ⊂ Child
QED

[The Murtunian Tribes]

1. It is an alternative to how to deal with an unwanted child.
2. If Jane Doe kills her offspring, there should be some sort of repercussions.
3. First off, [url=wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=baby]yes there is[/url]. Secondly, how so?
4. No, I wouldn't've. I would've given Hitler art lessons as a child and given Bin Laden mental help. Even if it were absolutely necessary to murder them, it would still be a necessary evil, not an "excellent" thing.
5. It should be illegal because it violates the right to live of the fetus.
7. Many societies used infanticide to their benefit, for example weeding out the weak. Sparta, IIRC, prospered. As far as sexism, I was referring to codified sexism, such as spousal rape, lack of suffrage, et cetera.

Offspring ⊂ Child
Fetus ⊂ Offspring
Fetus ⊂ Child
QED

1. True, but so is adoption. Also, irrelevant. NOT an alternative to abortion, no matter how you look at it, and therefore has noting to do with this discussion.
2. That's not a reasoning. WHY?
3. That's just a usage of the word. Vernacular (even widespread) does not mean they are the same thing.
4. Tomato Tomahto. You would have done it. I wan't asking you to enjoy it.
5. Fetus does not have that right, or any right. According to the 14th ammendment at least. Only people who are BORN in the U.S. are citizens, and are granted rights as people.
7. We are not a warrior cult in the U.S. Plus they really should have just aborted those babies (BAM!). As far your examples of sexism, I would argue that they are bad for social cohesion, on much the same ground as slavery (although not QUITE as bad). Therefore should be illegal. Oh, and I still want to hear your defense on how slavery has not negatively affected social cohesion before.

[Nulono]

1. It is an alternative to how to deal with an unwanted child.
2. If Jane Doe kills her offspring, there should be some sort of repercussions.
3. First off, [url=wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=baby]yes there is[/url]. Secondly, how so?
4. No, I wouldn't've. I would've given Hitler art lessons as a child and given Bin Laden mental help. Even if it were absolutely necessary to murder them, it would still be a necessary evil, not an "excellent" thing.
5. It should be illegal because it violates the right to live of the fetus.
7. Many societies used infanticide to their benefit, for example weeding out the weak. Sparta, IIRC, prospered. As far as sexism, I was referring to codified sexism, such as spousal rape, lack of suffrage, et cetera.

Offspring ⊂ Child
Fetus ⊂ Offspring
Fetus ⊂ Child
QED

1. True, but so is adoption. Also, irrelevant. NOT an alternative to abortion, no matter how you look at it, and therefore has noting to do with this discussion.
2. That's not a reasoning. WHY?
3. That's just a usage of the word. Vernacular (even widespread) does not mean they are the same thing.
4. Tomato Tomahto. You would have done it. I wan't asking you to enjoy it.
5. Fetus does not have that right, or any right. According to the 14th ammendment at least. Only people who are BORN in the U.S. are citizens, and are granted rights as people.
7. We are not a warrior cult in the U.S. Plus they really should have just aborted those babies (BAM!). As far your examples of sexism, I would argue that they are bad for social cohesion, on much the same ground as slavery (although not QUITE as bad). Therefore should be illegal. Oh, and I still want to hear your defense on how slavery has not negatively affected social cohesion before.

1. It depends on why you're having the abortion. Very late term abortion can be an alternative to an early abortion. Not all options should be legalized for everything.
2. Because she violated the child's right to live.
3. Fine, whatever. Child, offspring, baby. My point is that it doesn't make sense to punish the fetus with death for the parents having sex.
4. Actually, I don't think I could've. I'd've likely been too squeamish. I would never consider it "excellent". It would be a tragic necessity at best.
5. Only those born in the US are citizens, yes, but the Constitution grants the right to live to persons, not citizens.
7. Regardless of whether we're a warrior cult, infanticidal Sparta still survived (until Rome as a whole fell). The argument could be made that it was the resistance to sexism and slavery that caused social harm, and that a rigid system of hierarchy is in and of itself healthy for society.

[-St George]

7. Regardless of whether we're a warrior cult, infanticidal Sparta still survived (until Rome as a whole fell).

What?

[Nulono]

7. Regardless of whether we're a warrior cult, infanticidal Sparta still survived (until Rome as a whole fell).

What?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sparta a Roman city-state? My memory in this area is sketchy at best.

[-St George]

What?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sparta a Roman city-state? My memory in this area is sketchy at best.

Sparta was a conquered city, with no real autonomy. It was not the Sparta of pre-Rome.

[UCUMAY]

Just because she consents to sex... Doesn't mean she consented to be pregnant. I know this because I'm a sexually active female.

Sure, I consented to pulling the trigger, your Honor, but I cannot be held responsible for his death.

There is such a thing as accidental shootings...

Murder can be an excellent thing in some situations, and brutal in others. Just like abortion in my opinion. But I'm neither a judge or on a jury, and feel I have no right to judge others without facts.

When is murder excellent?

In self defense cases.

Sort of. In an ideal world, ethics has nothing to do with laws, becasue ethics are subjective and the law has no use for them. If social cohesion is a concern (i.e. murder), then that can be an argument in it of itself. Murder can't be illegal by sheer virtue of it being wrong, but it can be illegal and be wrong. As social cohesion is not major problem with abortion, (indeed, the case could easily be made that illegalizing abortion is BAD for social cohesion), it therefore has no gorunds to be illegal. The fact that it may be ethically wrong is irrelevant.

Many things have been legal and not harmed social cohesion, yet we changed them because they were wrong. Infanticide, slavery, sexism, ad astra.

Slavery, and sexism have effected social cohesion in the country. (Woman's suffrage ring a bell?)
Infanticide doesn't necessarily effect social cohension depending on the circumstances. I however can't not agree with it on a moral level because of abortion and the baby Moses laws.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

What?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sparta a Roman city-state? My memory in this area is sketchy at best.

Sparta was a GREEK city-state. I'm a bit hazy on the particulars of it's history. But it would have conquered by Rome (like the rest of Greece) in the second century B.C.

[Dempublicents1]

Has there ever been a good argument to be against abortion? You either get terrible arguments from people like Nulono or people who use religion as an argument.

I respect the argument that all human beings should be willing to donate of their bodies to preserve the life of another and see how it would then be applied to abortion if we first make the assumption that an embryo/fetus is a person. I vehemently disagree with it, but I respect it.

Of course, very few people are actually willing to make that argument. Most people in favor of forced pregnancy argue that pregnant women, and only pregnant women, should be forced to do so.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

1. True, but so is adoption. Also, irrelevant. NOT an alternative to abortion, no matter how you look at it, and therefore has noting to do with this discussion.
2. That's not a reasoning. WHY?
3. That's just a usage of the word. Vernacular (even widespread) does not mean they are the same thing.
4. Tomato Tomahto. You would have done it. I wan't asking you to enjoy it.
5. Fetus does not have that right, or any right. According to the 14th ammendment at least. Only people who are BORN in the U.S. are citizens, and are granted rights as people.
7. We are not a warrior cult in the U.S. Plus they really should have just aborted those babies (BAM!). As far your examples of sexism, I would argue that they are bad for social cohesion, on much the same ground as slavery (although not QUITE as bad). Therefore should be illegal. Oh, and I still want to hear your defense on how slavery has not negatively affected social cohesion before.

1. It depends on why you're having the abortion. Very late term abortion can be an alternative to an early abortion. Not all options should be legalized for everything.
2. Because she violated the child's right to live.
3. Fine, whatever. Child, offspring, baby. My point is that it doesn't make sense to punish the fetus with death for the parents having sex.
4. Actually, I don't think I could've. I'd've likely been too squeamish. I would never consider it "excellent". It would be a tragic necessity at best.
5. Only those born in the US are citizens, yes, but the Constitution grants the right to live to persons, not citizens.
7. Regardless of whether we're a warrior cult, infanticidal Sparta still survived (until Rome as a whole fell). The argument could be made that it was the resistance to sexism and slavery that caused social harm, and that a rigid system of hierarchy is in and of itself healthy for society.

1. No it doesn't. There is no alternative to abortion because anything accomplishing the same thing (as in knowingly terminating pregnancy) IS an abortion. Only theoretical alternetives exist (removing and freezing fetuses, for example). And I never claimed ALL options should be legalized for everything. Just abortion.
2. You cannot cetegorically prove the fetus has a right to live. The law says it doesn't. Ethics are relative. Zero evidence.
3. It really doesn't, but again, it makes less sense (from societal cohesion standpoint) to force pregnancy.
4. Meh. Semantics really. There's always UCUMAY's example of self defense, too. But whatever. You agree enough.
5. What? No it doesn't. The Constitution only grants rights to citizens of the US, not persons. According to that logic people living in China are granted Constitutional rights by virtue of being people.
7. So Nazism is therefore healthy for society? A lack of cohesion can take more forms than civil war or chaos. Totalitarianism and oppression are also bad.

[Apollonesia]

I am pro-life, unless the pregnancy occured through an act without consent. You played, you pay.

Well, at least you're honest about wanting to punish women for daring to have consensual sex.

Irresponsible consensual sex.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Well, at least you're honest about wanting to punish women for daring to have consensual sex.

Irresponsible consensual sex.

Not necessarily. AND DON'T MAKE THAT EMOTE AT US.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Not this thread again...

[Apollonesia]

Irresponsible consensual sex.

Not necessarily. AND DON'T MAKE THAT EMOTE AT US.

If I feel like winking at you, I'm going to wink.

And yes, necessarily. It's irresponsible sex if proper precautions aren't taken to ensure that no one becomes PREGNANT--if a pregnancy is not wanted. If this were to happen, an abortion would be performed.

Fantastic. A child has been aborted because you were irresponsible. Excellent work.

[Militia Alliance]

Ask the Millions of blacks that have been murdered in the last few years what they think of their genocide... oh wait you can't, they're dead! http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=45553

[Dempublicents1]

What right do you have to force a woman to put a newborn child up for adoption instead of drowning him in the bathtub?

Poor analogy. It is physically possible, through a legal procedure that poses no extra danger to the mother and does not require the death of the newborn, to transfer custody of a born child to another person.

So tell me, pro-lifers: do you support what happened to Adam? Why or why not?"

No, I do not support it, because he's being made to save a life, not being told not to take one.

No more so than a pregnant woman being forced to take on similar/greater risks for an embryo/fetus. In the example, it is Adam's fault that someone else needs a kidney. As such, if that person does not get a kidney and dies, it is Adam's fault that they died.

Again, not being allowed to off your offspring != slavery.

It is when what you mean by "not being allowed to off your offspring" is "you should be used as an incubator against your will."

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Ask the Millions of blacks that have been murdered in the last few years what they think of their genocide... oh wait you can't, they're dead! http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=45553

>Millions of blacks that have been murdered in the last few years
>have been murdered
>murdered

[Simon Cowell of the RR]

Ask the Millions of blacks that have been murdered in the last few years what they think of their genocide... oh wait you can't, they're dead! http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=45553

>Millions of blacks that have been murdered in the last few years
>have been murdered
>murdered

No comment, kamrade.

[Dempublicents1]

Well, at least you're honest about wanting to punish women for daring to have consensual sex.

Irresponsible consensual sex.

Any fertile woman having any type of consensual sex can get pregnant. Which of these women should be punished by being forced to undergo pregnancy?

And yes, necessarily. It's irresponsible sex if proper precautions aren't taken to ensure that no one becomes PREGNANT--if a pregnancy is not wanted. If this were to happen, an abortion would be performed.

I know a woman who got pregnant while on the pill, after she and her partner used both a sponge and a condom. If she had chosen to, would you have allowed her to have an abortion?

[The Mountain Islands]

Pro-choice or pro-life? I personally am pro-choice because it is hard to call abortion murder when the baby isn't developed enough to think or feel.

Opinions?

Such an argument may only apply if is is true that ending the potential of life is a null concept. In this case" nipping it in the bud" is so similar to ending it in full bloom that my conscience equates them. By no means should the funds or efforts of those opposed to such a thing be directly or indirectly used to aid it. As for legality,the general populous may only judge whether to allow or disallow abortion- attempting to bypass the will of the people at large through courts and slick words is just wrong.

[Keronians]

Irresponsible consensual sex.

Any fertile woman having any type of consensual sex can get pregnant. Which of these women should be punished by being forced to undergo pregnancy?

And yes, necessarily. It's irresponsible sex if proper precautions aren't taken to ensure that no one becomes PREGNANT--if a pregnancy is not wanted. If this were to happen, an abortion would be performed.

I know a woman who got pregnant while on the pill, after she and her partner used both a sponge and a condom. If she had chosen to, would you have allowed her to have an abortion?

To the second question: no, of course not.

[Keronians]

Has there ever been a good argument to be against abortion? You either get terrible arguments from people like Nulono or people who use religion as an argument.

I respect the argument that all human beings should be willing to donate of their bodies to preserve the life of another and see how it would then be applied to abortion if we first make the assumption that an embryo/fetus is a person. I vehemently disagree with it, but I respect it.

Of course, very few people are actually willing to make that argument. Most people in favor of forced pregnancy argue that pregnant women, and only pregnant women, should be forced to do so.

In the case of pregnancy, unfortunately, there is only one person who can support the fetus: the mother.

In... what was it, Adam's? example, just because Adam refuses doesn't mean that the patient will die. Any person could donate a kidney, and there is no absolute requirement that Adam has to be the one to donate it.

[Apollonesia]

.

[Wiztopia]

Ask the Millions of blacks that have been murdered in the last few years what they think of their genocide... oh wait you can't, they're dead! http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=45553

We don't need more blacks.

[-St George]

I know a woman who got pregnant while on the pill, after she and her partner used both a sponge and a condom. If she had chosen to, would you have allowed her to have an abortion?

I don't approve of abortions. If I were this woman's friend (or sister, etc.) I'd express my displeasure with her decision. It's not my place to decide for anyone. /neutral answer

It's not your place to comment on her life decisions either, and, unless you've been in that situation, you have no credibility.