Should we celebrate Osama's Death

[EnragedMaldivians]

The death of Osama bin Laden is a neutral event for me. He was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, then he's accused of orchestrating 9/11 (another question which is irrelevant to me).

Let's hypothetically, for the sake of the argument, say that Osama did lead the 9/11 attacks. Yes, that is pretty horrible. But America makes 9/11 happen every day in the third world. It's never not invading somebody and stomping all over their people. The last time America had a clear victory against an unambiguously evil enemy was WW2, and that wasn't even their exclusive victory, as it was the Soviets who stormed Berlin and destroyed the Nazi state.

Osama was no good guy, but I have a hard time sympathizing for America as a nation and celebrating the death of a guy who may have killed about three thousand people (is that the number?) while the country that's been "victimized" has over its history killed hundreds of millions, perhaps reaching into he billions, all for the sake of profit and maintaining global hegemony as well as domination over the third world.

Maintaining a hegemony for profit has arguably made the world more peaceful; as many international relations scholars will be more than happy to tell you. Granted the U.S has done many unsavoury things, in Latin America, Vietnam and Iraq - but, to the extent that maintaing security regimes are profitable; the U.S has mitigated regional security dilemmas and kept them from escalating.

Besides. You can't expect a Nation to conduct its foreign policy based on idealism, or absoloute moral principles; Jimmy Carter tried that, and it failed.

(note that while I do think the world is currently becoming more peaceful -the enviromental degradation and depletion of oil + the eventual geo-political effect of what will follow that worries me.)

- Edit -

Oh - wait; I didn't address your Tu quoqe fallacy. My apologies.

[Uawc]

The death of Osama bin Laden is a neutral event for me. He was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, then he's accused of orchestrating 9/11 (another question which is irrelevant to me).

Let's hypothetically, for the sake of the argument, say that Osama did lead the 9/11 attacks. Yes, that is pretty horrible. But America makes 9/11 happen every day in the third world. It's never not invading somebody and stomping all over their people. The last time America had a clear victory against an unambiguously evil enemy was WW2, and that wasn't even their exclusive victory, as it was the Soviets who stormed Berlin and destroyed the Nazi state.

Osama was no good guy, but I have a hard time sympathizing for America as a nation and celebrating the death of a guy who may have killed about three thousand people (is that the number?) while the country that's been "victimized" has over its history killed hundreds of millions, perhaps reaching into he billions, all for the sake of profit and maintaining global hegemony as well as domination over the third world.

Maintaining a hegemony for profit has arguably made the world more peaceful; as many international relations scholars will be more than happy to tell you. Granted the U.S has done many unsavoury things, in Latin America, Vietnam and Iraq - but, to the extent that maintaing security regimes are profitable; the U.S has mitigated regional security dilemmas and kept them from escalating.

Besides. You can't expect a Nation to conduct its foreign policy based on idealism, or absoloute moral principles; Jimmy Carter tried that, and it failed.

(note that while I do think the world is currently becoming more peaceful -the enviromental degradation and depletion of oil + the eventual geo-political effect of what will follow that worries me.)

- Edit -

Oh - wait; I didn't address your Tu quoqe fallacy. My apologies.

Peace is meaningless if it is invariably accompanied by oppression, and the only forces maintaining it are fear and bloodshed. Third worlders, the world's majority, today remain oppressed, living under brutal living standards, exploited so that we can have our iPods and PS3s.

[Marfytown]

If you celebrated his death then you're just as worse as him. Sure he may have killed many people but that doesn't make it feel like it's a good thing just because somebody you didn't like died. If the war on terrorism ended then that would be something to celebrate over as it's an end to all the struggle and conflict that both soldiers and innocent people are going through.

[EnragedMaldivians]

"Opression" is better than War. As I understand it - inequality is increasing; but absoloute poverty as a percentage of the population is on the decline, except in sub-Saharan Africa.

Regardless, you made a tu quoqe fallacy. I'd understand why an Iraqi would be happy, should something happen to Bush Jr. or Cheney; and I understand why Pakistani's would hate America for the drone strikes.

But as an isolated issue, I'm glad that Bin Laden's dead. What the U.S does abroad has no bearing on the issue.

[Beinai]

It's like the little old lady in church who tut-tuts about kids these days.

Just no...

[Andaluciae]

The death of Osama bin Laden is a neutral event for me. He was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, then he's accused of orchestrating 9/11 (another question which is irrelevant to me).

Let's hypothetically, for the sake of the argument, say that Osama did lead the 9/11 attacks. Yes, that is pretty horrible. But America makes 9/11 happen every day in the third world. It's never not invading somebody and stomping all over their people. The last time America had a clear victory against an unambiguously evil enemy was WW2, and that wasn't even their exclusive victory, as it was the Soviets who stormed Berlin and destroyed the Nazi state.

Osama was no good guy, but I have a hard time sympathizing for America as a nation and celebrating the death of a guy who may have killed about three thousand people (is that the number?) while the country that's been "victimized" has over its history killed hundreds of millions, perhaps reaching into he billions, all for the sake of profit and maintaining global hegemony as well as domination over the third world.

You are aware that the links between bin Laden and the CIA are non-existent, right? The CIA provided funding to the Afghan Mujahadeen within existing tribal networks, not to the small contingent of Arab fighters who carried out their own, largely donor- or self-funded operations.
Both bin Laden and the CIA have denied having relationships, and even as a point of principle, the Arabs in Afghanistan were there because of their conviction that this was a fight for muslims, and to serve as an alternative to the crusaders. So, let's dispel the Osama-CIA myth right now.

[Andaluciae]

It's like the little old lady in church who tut-tuts about kids these days.

Just no...

Just yes.

Going around being a moral busybody, showing off how "superior" you are isn't going to win a single convert.

[Beinai]

Just yes.

Going around being a moral busybody, showing off how "superior" you are isn't going to win a single convert.

HAHAHA, how inaccurate, you are. ''Superior''? Hell, you really don't know me.

[Astonysha]

I am normally a very tolerant person, but when you are looking down the proverbial barrel of the gun at someone who is the absolute epitome of intolerance, and would not hesitate to kill you for your opinions, then you do not feel sorry when the threat has been removed.

It's like the old conumdrum about Gandhi and Hitler. If you espouse the Gandhian principles of totally peaceful resistance, how do you react when Hitler's tanks are standing outside the house? Do you stand firm on principle, or do you accept reality and offer some more positive resistance?

[Caninope]

The death of Osama bin Laden is a neutral event for me. He was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, then he's accused of orchestrating 9/11 (another question which is irrelevant to me).

Osama was not trained by the CIA.

Let's hypothetically, for the sake of the argument, say that Osama did lead the 9/11 attacks. Yes, that is pretty horrible. But America makes 9/11 happen every day in the third world.

We deliberately attack civilian targets all the time?

[Keronians]

The death of Osama bin Laden is a neutral event for me. He was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, then he's accused of orchestrating 9/11 (another question which is irrelevant to me).

Osama was not trained by the CIA.

Let's hypothetically, for the sake of the argument, say that Osama did lead the 9/11 attacks. Yes, that is pretty horrible. But America makes 9/11 happen every day in the third world.

We deliberately attack civilian targets all the time?

You do have the bad habit of acting on bad intelligence and ending up bombing civilians you thought were terrorists. Though that's not deliberate, tbh.

And you did in North Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Though that's hardly relevant to the present America...

[Andaluciae]

Just yes.

Going around being a moral busybody, showing off how "superior" you are isn't going to win a single convert.

HAHAHA, how inaccurate, you are. ''Superior''? Hell, you really don't know me.

Check and check. Self-superior and un-self aware.

[Beinai]

Check and check. Self-superior and un-self aware.

Okays, Mr Judge. I can't be bothered to get all defensive about something which I know isn't true. Last sentence was just to humour you. KTHXBAI

[Central Slavia]

Maintaining a hegemony for profit has arguably made the world more peaceful
.

We's be better off with the hegemony of the other side - this one fucked us over.

[Makhnovya]

I celebrated, still celebrate, and would spit on his grave if he had one.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Maintaining a hegemony for profit has arguably made the world more peaceful
.

We's be better off with the hegemony of the other side - this one fucked us over.

Depends where you're from, I suppose.

[Trollgaard]

There is so much bs is this thread it makes me want to hurl my computer out the window.

To actually believe that we should not celebrate his death because it lowers us on some level is foolish. What level were we on in the first place? This is ridiculous. OBL was an enemy. Now he is dead. People celebrate the death/defeat of enemies.

Its a simple as that.

[Trollgaard]

Maintaining a hegemony for profit has arguably made the world more peaceful; as many international relations scholars will be more than happy to tell you. Granted the U.S has done many unsavoury things, in Latin America, Vietnam and Iraq - but, to the extent that maintaing security regimes are profitable; the U.S has mitigated regional security dilemmas and kept them from escalating.

Besides. You can't expect a Nation to conduct its foreign policy based on idealism, or absoloute moral principles; Jimmy Carter tried that, and it failed.

(note that while I do think the world is currently becoming more peaceful -the enviromental degradation and depletion of oil + the eventual geo-political effect of what will follow that worries me.)

- Edit -

Oh - wait; I didn't address your Tu quoqe fallacy. My apologies.

Peace is meaningless if it is invariably accompanied by oppression, and the only forces maintaining it are fear and bloodshed. Third worlders, the world's majority, today remain oppressed, living under brutal living standards, exploited so that we can have our iPods and PS3s.

That's the way civilization has always been. To expect it to be otherwise is naive and foolish.

[Naurobia]

I think it is justice and there is nothing wrong with being happy about justice.

[EnragedMaldivians]

I think it is justice and there is nothing wrong with being happy about justice.

No. It's Revenge. Revenge isn't Justice!

Remember, celebrating the death of a mass murderer makes you just as bad as one.

Besides; the U.S kills people too. America is the real terrorist.

I hope you realize that you've become what you hate!

[Darqastan]

I think it is justice and there is nothing wrong with being happy about justice.

No. It's Revenge. Revenge isn't Justice!

Remember, celebrating the death of a mass murderer makes you just as bad as one.

Besides; the U.S kills people too. America is the real terrorist.

I hope you realize that you've become what you hate!

Touche.

[Icamera]

I think it is justice and there is nothing wrong with being happy about justice.

No. It's Revenge. Revenge isn't Justice!

Remember, celebrating the death of a mass murderer makes you just as bad as one.

Besides; the U.S kills people too. America is the real terrorist.

I hope you realize that you've become what you hate!

First off, throwing a party doesn't even come close to killing thousands of people. And yes, I did celebrate, but didn't do anything too malicious (like put bin Laden's face on a dartboard).

Second, you're right; I'm not sure how many, but the U.S. has killed hundreds of millions of people, perhaps billions. I suppose the massive casualties of the two World Wars make up the lion's share of this, but I'm sure we have killed tens of millions without a just cause.

[EnragedMaldivians]

No. It's Revenge. Revenge isn't Justice!

Remember, celebrating the death of a mass murderer makes you just as bad as one.

Besides; the U.S kills people too. America is the real terrorist.

I hope you realize that you've become what you hate!

First off, throwing a party doesn't even come close to killing thousands of people. And yes, I did celebrate, but didn't do anything too malicious (like put bin Laden's face on a dartboard).

Second, you're right; I'm not sure how many, but the U.S. has killed hundreds of millions of people, perhaps billions. I suppose the massive casualties of the two World Wars make up the lion's share of this, but I'm sure we have killed tens of millions without a just cause.

I was being sarcastic.

- Edit -

@Bolded; um - what?

[Central Slavia]

I think it is justice and there is nothing wrong with being happy about justice.

No. It's Revenge. Revenge isn't Justice!

Justice IS a subset of revenge. Not all revenge is just - it has to be aimed at the perpetrator, not at people related to him somehow, but eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is the definition of justice.

Remember, celebrating the death of a mass murderer makes you just as bad as one.

Except for the body count, of course. (just shows how idiotic the assertion is)
Regardless, i don't give a shit about "being as bad" - all i care about is that the bastard got what was coming for him.

Besides; the U.S kills people too. America is the real terrorist.

America does kill loads of people, and i dislike it. However , that doesn't make this raghead any better. At worst, *both* parties are behaving in a terroristic manner, while your statement implies that Usama was somehow less so

I hope you realize that you've become what you hate!

Who cares? If to destroy what i hate i have to become like it, well so be it.

[EnragedMaldivians]

No. It's Revenge. Revenge isn't Justice!

Justice IS a subset of revenge. Not all revenge is just - it has to be aimed at the perpetrator, not at people related to him somehow, but eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is the definition of justice.

Remember, celebrating the death of a mass murderer makes you just as bad as one.

Except for the body count, of course. (just shows how idiotic the assertion is)
Regardless, i don't give a shit about "being as bad" - all i care about is that the bastard got what was coming for him.

Besides; the U.S kills people too. America is the real terrorist.

America does kill loads of people, and i dislike it. However , that doesn't make this raghead any better. At worst, *both* parties are behaving in a terroristic manner, while your statement implies that Usama was somehow less so

I hope you realize that you've become what you hate!

Who cares? If to destroy what i hate i have to become like it, well so be it.

I guessed you missed all the posts I made that defended American hegemony. You know, the ones you responded to.

On this page.

And the fact that I've continuously argued that there's nothing wrong with celebrating Osama's death. Given that context, was it that hard to discern that my post was sarcastic in nature, and that I was annoyed that people were expressing such sentiments?