North Korea second happiest country in the world, China's #1

[Sun Aut Ex]

But it's not a conspiracy theory to claim that the United States pursues its own interests against the interests of many other hundreds of millions of people. And that's all I've contended in this.

So basically, you've proven that every country acts in it's own interests?

*clap clap clap*

Truly the Disraeli of our times, you are.

If anything, I figure my controversy alone might get me somewhere in terms of recognition. I don't really give two shits about getting rich (though money could be useful for advancing the cause) so much as just spreading my message. If I die impoverished but my words remembered and influential, that's all I give a shit about.

The problem there is that your controversy is on the same level as the controversy created by intelligent design proponents when they rock up and claim that it's scientific.

[Facist Netherlands]

Hmm, I am far right radical/punk here, and I got ideas that the Asian and Caucasian race are equal to eachother. Anyhow. I don't believe that there are prison camps neither. North Korea is a good country

Far right radical? Isn't that self-contradictory (as radical in itself generally refers to far-left)? xD

But yeah, I think anyone regardless of their personal political affiliation who looks at the situation with an objective ally, actually takes the time to think through it and see things for how they are will recognize how utterly ridiculous most of the things we're expected to believe about the DPRK are. Facts are, it's been pushing for peace for decades, and the United States is just, as always, acting like the big international bully on the playground.

Haha, spelling failure comrade

Far right extremist

[Tokyoni]

None of it is ridiculous. It's thinking like that that allows new Holocausts to pop up all over the globe. "Nah, come on! Nobody's ever going to pull a Hitler again!".

The United States (moderate right imperialism) is far closer politically to the Third Reich (far right imperialism) than the DPRK (far left anti-imperialism) any way you spin it.

How the hell is bombing a South Korean warship, kidnapping Japanese civilians, and building nukes "pushing for peace"?

The former is doubted even by many in South Korea.

The latter happened years ago, those kidnapped were repatriated, and the government admitted that it was a terrible mistake and apologized for it. (Still far, far more humane than what the CIA has done to far more civilians in other nations).

And as for nukes. It's absolutely laughably hypocritical that the United States - the nation with the most nuclear weapons of any other on earth by far and the only nation to have actually used them (on cities full of civilians of all things) to complain about other nations developing nuclear programs. Frankly, if the DPRK had nuclear weapons, it would make them MUCH less likely to be attacked, which could really help accelerate the peace process (the whole mutually assured destruction thing making it against the US's interests to harm them). And if you really are in favor of global nuclear disarmament. Well, Jesus's parable about the speck and plank in an eye come to mind...

[Facist Netherlands]

To Tokyoni. I think far right and far left must stand togheter now. Untill this bullshit country of the USA is stopped.

[Tokyoni]

What's the point of flamboyant anti-imperialism if the powers that be sanction your country to the point of destitution?

All the more reason to promote self-reliance and anti-imperialism.

Surely the well being of his population is something for which Kimmy should be willing to compromise his supposed principles?

Exactly why he's pushing for the above.

Tokyoni, can you speak Korean?

Not very well unfortunately. I can read Hangul and know some phrases, the basic structure of its grammar/syntax - thankfully in my case quite close to Japanese, which I do know. Sadly, Korean language classes aren't offered at my university (used to be, but the fuckers in administration cut the department. >_<). I'm getting by on Rosetta Stone and informal lessons from my girlfriend (who's moderately fluent in it). But nowhere near fluent, no.

[Facist Netherlands]

Not very well unfortunately. I can read Hangul and know some phrases, the basic structure of its grammar/syntax - thankfully in my case quite close to Japanese, which I do know. Sadly, Korean language classes aren't offered at my university (used to be, but the fuckers in administration cut the department. >_<). I'm getting by on Rosetta Stone and informal lessons from my girlfriend (who's moderately fluent in it). But nowhere near fluent, no.

Asian gf? Lucky guy!

[Sun Aut Ex]

The United States (moderate right imperialism) is far closer politically to the Third Reich (far right imperialism) than the DPRK (far left anti-imperialism) any way you spin it.

You're really just throwing around spin-words there, that don't actually reflect accurately the current situations of those states. But politically and socially, North Korea is definitely much closer to Nazi Germany than the US. Much, much closer.

The latter happened years ago, those kidnapped were repatriated, and the government admitted that it was a terrible mistake and apologized for it. (Still far, far more humane than what the CIA has done to far more civilians in other nations).

I doubt that the US has ever just grabbed random people, purely because they wanted somebody to teach the language to their spies. And again... the US is NOT the whole of the West! How many times do I have to say that!?

And as for nukes. It's absolutely laughably hypocritical that the United States - the nation with the most nuclear weapons of any other on earth by far and the only nation to have actually used them (on cities full of civilians of all things) to complain about other nations developing nuclear programs. Frankly, if the DPRK had nuclear weapons, it would make them MUCH less likely to be attacked, which could really help accelerate the peace process (the whole mutually assured destruction thing making it against the US's interests to harm them). And if you really are in favor of global nuclear disarmament. Well, Jesus's parable about the speck and plank in an eye come to mind...

Yes, because as everybody know, I AM the United States!

[Tokyoni]

To Tokyoni. I think far right and far left must stand togheter now. Untill this bullshit country of the USA is stopped.

Aye. I'm close to thinking the same. Neo-liberalism is a poison that's destroying this world - and ultimately is the greatest threat to ... well, about near everyone.

[Facist Netherlands]

You're really just throwing around spin-words there, that don't actually reflect accurately the current situations of those states. But politically and socially, North Korea is definitely much closer to Nazi Germany than the US. Much, much closer.

Basicly, no. The Juche idea sees that anyone who believes in this is an ally. But you have not to believe in the country. Anyway, you have to believe in the US, to be an ally.

[Tokyoni]

Not very well unfortunately. I can read Hangul and know some phrases, the basic structure of its grammar/syntax - thankfully in my case quite close to Japanese, which I do know. Sadly, Korean language classes aren't offered at my university (used to be, but the fuckers in administration cut the department. >_<). I'm getting by on Rosetta Stone and informal lessons from my girlfriend (who's moderately fluent in it). But nowhere near fluent, no.

Asian gf? Lucky guy!

Well, she's Thai, not Korean. xD Just... really good at learning languages. Like penti-lingual (if Thai and Laos count as different languages instead of different dialects; that's a bit of a contentious issue as I understand it).

But yeah, she's awesome. <3

[Nitrome Island]

its fake. people there eat grass because their so poor and oppresed. did you see their footballers at the world cup? they were always crying.

[Tokyoni]

The United States (moderate right imperialism) is far closer politically to the Third Reich (far right imperialism) than the DPRK (far left anti-imperialism) any way you spin it.

You're really just throwing around spin-words there, that don't actually reflect accurately the current situations of those states. But politically and socially, North Korea is definitely much closer to Nazi Germany than the US. Much, much closer.

I'm analyzing the driving ideology in each of those societies. Nazi Germany was really about as far right as one can get. North Korea is about as far left at least as the world has seen thus far. I suppose they might said to hold "authoritarianism" in common (at least culturally if not structurally), but to very different ends.

I doubt that the US has ever just grabbed random people, purely because they wanted somebody to teach the language to their spies. And again... the US is NOT the whole of the West! How many times do I have to say that!?

True. They just grab people at random and shoot them or send them to Guantanamo. So much better.

And fine, I realize that. I have no real problems with say... Switzerland or Norway. There are a number of western countries that, while I don't necessarily support to the fullest extent their internal governments (almost invariably better than that of the US), they at least have decent, peaceful, respectable foreign policies. Thus I have nothing against them.

The US though, I do.

And as for nukes. It's absolutely laughably hypocritical that the United States - the nation with the most nuclear weapons of any other on earth by far and the only nation to have actually used them (on cities full of civilians of all things) to complain about other nations developing nuclear programs. Frankly, if the DPRK had nuclear weapons, it would make them MUCH less likely to be attacked, which could really help accelerate the peace process (the whole mutually assured destruction thing making it against the US's interests to harm them). And if you really are in favor of global nuclear disarmament. Well, Jesus's parable about the speck and plank in an eye come to mind...

Yes, because as everybody know, I AM the United States!

[/quote]

Seems like you're taking this a bit personally. My beef is with the very select few who run this country. Everyone else is just, to some degree of consciousness or another, another victim of the systems as I see it.

[Sibirsky]

I'd like to see the source (tell me it's not something so laughably biased as the anecdote of a political expatriate; I'm sure if I were to move to the DPRK for political reasons - were such a thing possible, my expressed views of the United States would not be the same as most American citizens - so why should one expect the matter to be any different with any form of political emigration).

It is possible. Rare, but possible.

That out of the way:

If an impoverished African-American simply happened to use marijuana or another such drug, he could be taken away from his family and friends, locked away in a violent prison facility wherein he would be subject to violence and sexual assault, and his labor exploited by a private prison industry, simply because he was trying to find a temporary escape from the misery of his poverty, in a nation where our "justice" system far dispraportionately targets racial minorities.

Simple possession does not result in incarceration, unless he has many (and I mean many) priors. If he is jailed, work is voluntary.

If a Middle Easterner, god forbid a Muslim, happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, without trial, he could be sent to gitmo or Guantanamo bay, deprived of human rights, subject to torture, all the while having no opportunity to present a case in his own defense.

Justify that.

We aren't defending it.

[Sibirsky]

The point I was presenting here is that the United States does everything and more that you accuse North Korea of, despite being in a much less desperate position.

No it doesn't. It does not jail political opposition, and their entire families. It does not torture it's inmates (forget Gitmo, think regular US prisons). It provides adequate food to it's inmates. It allows access to all sorts of media and freedom of movement. It allows extensive speech rights. Etc, etc.

[Tokyoni]

It is possible. Rare, but possible.


Simple possession does not result in incarceration, unless he has many (and I mean many) priors. If he is jailed, work is voluntary.

We aren't defending it.

Fine. My point of argument has never been that North Korea is perfect (or any nation for that matter ever could be). It has many faults, of course. Just... that's it's trying, and that at least compared with the mess the US has made upon this earth, it's much better. *shrug*

[Sibirsky]

How do you even know that life is good there?

I can't claim absolute knowledge at the moment, but at the very least I can exercise a strong degree of skepticism against the Big Lie campaign of the western media (a part of the capitalist controlled superstructure) against the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. History has repeated itself so many times. The desired victim of imperialism is always painted as an "evil", "barbaric" people who need to be "civilized" by force - generally with paternalistic and racist undertones. North Korea is but one of many nations who have misrepresented in such a factor by the media for such a purpose.

And actually, I plan on living in North Korea for two months, a year from this summer, via this program, should I be accepted; http://www.pyongyangproject.org/programs/think.html

So at that point, I'll have firsthand knowledge on how the conditions will be there. And somehow I doubt it'll be the way FOX and CNN show it.

I doubt that program is anything like what a common person has to go through. And Pyongyang residents are much, much better of than the rest of the nation.

[Sibirsky]

No, I don't believe that the US has any death camps. Nice try.

It has one of the highest execution rates of most nations on earth, but whatever.

Nor do I believe that any such real "death camps" exist in North Korea. They have prisons, of course, like any nation; and they may execute certain heinous criminals, as is the case in the United States. But there's nothing that remarkable about either to me.

The US also has an extensive appeals process for capital crimes. And doesn't execute political opposition.

[Sibirsky]

We aren't defending it.

Fine. My point of argument has never been that North Korea is perfect (or any nation for that matter ever could be). It has many faults, of course. Just... that's it's trying, and that at least compared with the mess the US has made upon this earth, it's much better. *shrug*

Ridiculous.

Impoverishing your population and locking them up for disagreeing with Dear Leader is better?

[Tokyoni]

No it doesn't. It does not jail political opposition, and their entire families.

Except when it does:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_A ... internment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare

Or what's going on right now to literally some personal friends of mine: http://www.stopfbi.net/

It does not torture it's inmates (forget Gitmo, think regular US prisons).

So you're literally just discounting all instances wherein it happens. That's about saying - "I'm anaerobic. Forget about that whole respiration thing. "

It provides adequate food to it's inmates. It allows access to all sorts of media and freedom of movement. It allows extensive speech rights. Etc, etc.

It also highly disproportionately targets racial minorities (particularly African-Americans), imprisons for such effectively harmless crimes as drug possession and then exploits their labor - essentially forcing them to work for less than a dollar an hour in privately owned prisons which often put pressure on judges to sentence relatively minor cases to prison time. The US has the largest per capita prison population on earth. Yeah... not a very nice thing.

As for the freedom for the media/speech. Yes, for all the good shouting in the vacuum of corporate media is going to do. Sure we have those "freedoms" in name, but that's only because the capitalists (that is major capital owners, not simply those who believe in a free market or whatever) control the superstructure of society to such a degree that they drown out all "non-mainstream" opinions.

And in the rare cases where a strong political movement begins that's truly antithetical to the interests of large corporations and large capital owners, they're MORE than willing to take away those said "rights" to preserve their interests.That's the way of things. Just illusory concessions.

[Facist Netherlands]

If you walk throught the streets of USA they all start speaking of freedom, and there IS propaganda

So basicly the US is a propaganda machine, thus not democratic, thus fake

[Sun Aut Ex]

If you walk throught the streets of USA they all start speaking of freedom, and there IS propaganda

So basicly the US is a propaganda machine, thus not democratic, thus fake

... Wut?

[Norstal]

If you walk throught the streets of USA they all start speaking of freedom, and there IS propaganda

So basicly the US is a propaganda machine, thus not democratic, thus fake

Good. Autocracy is better. We have Android phones and no one in the NK or Libya has it.

[Norstal]

Fine. My point of argument has never been that North Korea is perfect (or any nation for that matter ever could be). It has many faults, of course. Just... that's it's trying, and that at least compared with the mess the US has made upon this earth, it's much better. *shrug*

Why can't you be fanatic about Vietnam? They don't put up bullshit propagandas like in the OP. They maintain a somewhat healthy relationship with every nation on Earth. They actually, clearly wants peace by not starting shit up. Even their cities are livable and their technology level is comparable to that of Japan. And guess what? They're the only modern nation to ever successfully defeat the U.S.

I mean god, it's like you have the option of picking gold or shit, and you picked shit.

[Sibirsky]

Fine. My point of argument has never been that North Korea is perfect (or any nation for that matter ever could be). It has many faults, of course. Just... that's it's trying, and that at least compared with the mess the US has made upon this earth, it's much better. *shrug*

Why can't you be fanatic about Vietnam? They don't put up bullshit propagandas like in the OP. They maintain a somewhat healthy relationship with every nation on Earth. They actually, clearly wants peace by not starting shit up. Even their cities are livable and their technology level is comparable to that of Japan. And guess what? They're the only modern nation to ever successfully defeat the U.S.

I mean god, it's like you have the option of picking gold or shit, and you picked shit.

I had Vietnamese cookies last weekend. When was the last time you had something from North Korea?

[Norstal]

Why can't you be fanatic about Vietnam? They don't put up bullshit propagandas like in the OP. They maintain a somewhat healthy relationship with every nation on Earth. They actually, clearly wants peace by not starting shit up. Even their cities are livable and their technology level is comparable to that of Japan. And guess what? They're the only modern nation to ever successfully defeat the U.S.

I mean god, it's like you have the option of picking gold or shit, and you picked shit.

I had Vietnamese cookies last weekend. When was the last time you had something from North Korea?

It's almost like he's trolling!