North Korea second happiest country in the world, China's #1

[Herrebrugh]

The music is a matter of taste. And frankly, that's not my taste. And who gives a shit about the music? We at least have choice in our music. The Koreans in the north can listen to that, or nothing at all.

If I might be frank here... Yes, the choice in music in itself is a choice. And in itself trivial sure. If you prefer vapid autotuned songs about drinking and fucking instead of classical/neo-classical music (which has been correlated with intelligence, but whatever. xP) But the aggregate cultural preferences are symptomatic of something much, much deeper.

Let's forget politics and economics per se right now. Let's forget who's running the country, who owns capital, and look purely to a social level. This image really well expresses the growing sentiments I've been having about the western world in general and America in particular:



As far as I'm concerned, American culture in aggregate is the most dehumanizing, vapid, anti-intellectual, lazy, disgusting, animalistic culture I think the world has ever seen. Certainly there are the rare, thankful exceptions to this, but I think that American culture is for the advancement of the human consciousness much akin to a deadly poison.

A rhetorical question: What is it that separates humans from other animals? As a matter of genetics, we're only really a hair's breadth away from a chimpanzee or bonobo. We are genetically closer to these species than any of us are to others. So there's nothing remarkably "magical" about the genetic definition itself. By our DNA, we're just as "animal" as any other species. Neither is it our strength - as lions and bears, and nay, even most other apes are significantly stronger than humans. Nor is it accumulation of material goods - as squirrels exhibit such behavior.

What separates human beings from other animals is our ability to think, to reason, to understand and comprehend beauty and philosophy, to better ourselves by our own efforts. These are what define who we are, as beings with a higher degree of consciousness than other animals, and all that really makes us distinct. Lacking this, we are just another ape, another primate, another mammal, another animal.

And it seems that every trait that we have that separates us from animals, American culture reviles. Intellectuals for the most part are marginalized, often outright mocked in our culture, and such is seen as normal. American culture idolizes the vapid, the hedonistic, the anti-intellectual. With few exceptions our culture's celebrities - the wealthiest, most famous individuals - are not those who advance our level of knowledge or consciousness, but rather idiotic individuals who are only attractive in a skin-deep fashion, lacking any real character or mindset to strive for more, to improve themselves, to improve mankind.

How could any rational person justify a society in which such worthless vapid celebrities parade around with millions upon millions of dollars and are worshiped by good sections of the populace almost as gods; when the group of brilliant scientists working around the clock to find a cure for cancer, the teacher who works her ass off trying to provide a better education and future for her pupils, the firefighter who puts his life on the line to help save the lives of others - all of them, with few exceptions live unknown and often with barely enough to get by. Our society has contempt for those most noble, human amongst us and worship for the most worthless. An utterly backwards, disgusting way of things. And I absolutely despise it.

As an anecdote that really brought this line of thought alive to me tonight. Earlier this evening, my girlfriend and I were going on a date to a local movie theatre. It was showing a film - for only this weekend as I understand it - that we thought was quite interesting (and if it's in your theatre, I highly recommend you see it). Titled "Winter in Wartime", it was a Dutch film regarding a family living in Holland during WWII who joined the Resistance to the Nazis. Absolutely brilliantly done film. It lacked much of the flashy cinematics and CGI of modern Hollywood, but it told a beautiful, very intelligently-written story of incredibly heroic human beings fighting for a better world at the risk of their own lives. The theatre was a medium-sized theatre. About 15 different theatres within showing films. So anyhow, we went to pay for our tickets. As far as I could tell, I was the only one in line (out of several couples I saw) who paid for my girlfriend's ticket. My first bit of revulsion at the decay of this culture; in itself trivial perhaps, but a symptom of a society that has little respect for women. Anyhow, I quickly shoved the idea out of my mind, and entered the theatre. Surprise, surprise, it was the smallest theatre in the complex for our film, and at least at that showing, we were the only two in the audience. It made for a wonderfully quiet, peaceful experience, but in a way it really, really depressed me in hindsight. Here was this absolutely brilliant, inspiring, intelligent film. And we were the only two out of at least several hundred movie-goers who had any interest in it. Conversely, the relatively mindless films such as Hangover II and Madea's... whatever... had plenty of viewers. Frankly I'm surprised that the theatre showed such a film as ours ... at all; very happily so, but considering it seemed to have such bad sales (and I live in a college town for fuck's sake), it probably won't show such films again. It just really depresses and bothers me what a vapid, anti-intellectual, egoistic, consumerist society we live in here in the United States.

Education and intellectualism are reviled in this culture. The American education system decays while it spends billions upon billions in foreign wars of aggression. Teachers and even university professors make meager money at best, while vapid entertainers roll in cash and fame. Even within the very institutions of education themselves, anti-intellectual sentiments are tolerated and ney, even promoted. Students showing too much interest in intellectual pursuits rather than the vapidity of pop culture are ostracized, harassed. Even in my own university experience - voluntary higher education at one of the more prestigious schools in the United States, I've noted that the vast majority of students here (around 80% or so I'd posit) are for more interested in trivial pointless matters than those of philosophy, intellectualism, improving themselves and the world around them. Students even are far more likely to discuss the latest football game, party, or girl/guy they banged than anything that expands and uplifts the mind. And in what is supposed to be an institution of learning and improvement, that is a bad, bad sign.

In the general population, it's drastically worse. Religious fundamentalism has such a hold of the population this backwards nation that even after more than a century of hard evidence on the matter, the majority of Americans do not accept evolution, show antipathy towards anyone lacking "perfectly straight" sexuality based on the dictates of some ancient scrolls. I don't mean to make a case against religion as a whole, as in many cases it can be quite uplifting to the human spirit: many sects of Buddhism and Liberation Theology come to mind. But religion as it has taken root in America seems, on aggregate to be very contrary to everything I have listed as separating humanity from other animals.

We live in an incredibly sick, decaying culture in the United States - and yet the majority of the population is content with such an existence. Everything that separates us from other animals, all that is human is rapidly being lost. Mindless hedonism is the virtue of the day. Consume consume consume. Party party party. Fuck fuck fuck. And don't get me wrong - there is certainly a place for such pleasures in life. But when higher virtues, our intelligence, our social progression are abandoned, then we lose a core part of our humanity.

And for all the pretenses of "freedom", "equality", and "democracy", we have precious little of any. There's an enormous wealth disparity in this nation, even more exacerbated when one brings race into the matter. And it's growing faster than ever.

Women are dehumanized and exploited in this society (saying nothing of the inequalities in pay/benefits/etc. in the financial sphere) - viewed as sexual objects to gratify a male's desires; instead of being seen as fellow, worthy human beings with all the same value and potential as any other. Unlike most in this society (from what I've observed at least), I actually have a great deal of respect for my girlfriend (and most all female members of the human species unless they've specifically done something to earn my scorn, for that matter). I see her yes as physically attractive, but beyond that an absolutely beautiful mind and personality. She's an amazingly intelligent person, and we've had absolutely intriguing conversations and all sorts of matters - most all of them far surpassing in value the worthless hedonism of this society. These things I value far above any physical matters. Yet our sick culture is such that women are under such pressure to conform to male's image of skin-deep "beauty" that many develop psychological trauma/starve themselves/otherwise harm themselves. That is a sick and dehumanizing culture, and I want zero part in it. And just the thought that this society would want to subject my girlfriend, my sisters, my female friends - or anyone for that matter to such a thing - for that I hate it.

Racial minorities are dehumanized and exploited. There is a strong correlation of poverty and race, and African Americans are far, far disproportionately incarcerated than any other ethnicity (the US prison system is also the largest both in total numbers and per capita of any nation on earth).

Many are discriminated against based upon their sexual orientation or religion (or lack thereof). I could go on and on, but the evidence should be self-evident to any who views the matter with a critical eye.

America's culture is one that despises all that sets humanity above other species of animals and loves that which robs us of our humanity. Just look to the popular media in this nation - Jersey Shore, Ke$ha, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears. Absolutely anti-intellectual, hedonistic, mindless drivel is elevated to a status of influence, and that which seeks to uplift humanity is scorned and marginalized. Even outside of the aggregious matters of its foreign policy and great injustices of its economic system, this is reason enough for me to absolutely detest the culture of the United States.

And obviously there are exceptions to this. I myself am a United States citizen (though not very proud of the fact honestly), and certainly wouldn't think myself falling into the mindset of the "average" American. Nor, would I posit, would most people on this site. The very fact that we're having a conversation on these matters demonstrates that we are rather separate from the rather "mainstream" culture of America. But those like myself, and I presume many of you, are rather marginalized and alienated in this culture in lieu of vapid hedonism and consumerism. And, I think in an objective reading of things, no other nation on earth has such a distorted, anti-intellectual, dehumanizing culture. Sadly though, many of the other nations on earth are importing this poison. *Sigh*





I guess then, switching gears. What draws me so much to the DPRK over any other communist nation is not so much its structure of government or economy per se, but its culture and philosophy. In Juche philosophy, society is seen as composed of the hammer, sickle, and paintbrush. The paintbrush, representing the intellectuals and artists is at the center, the forefront of society - and indeed, it is seen as being imperative that it must be there. Culturally then, the DPRK is almost as foreign from the US as one can get. There are no vapid, mindless celebrities. The heroes of society are the philosopher, the intellectual, the professor, the artist, the soldier. A society as it should be. Those viewed in high esteem in Juche are those who attempt to better themselves and mankind instead of stagnating in mindless hedonism. There is honor, humanity in such a culture. And that is what draws me to it.

Art, in its true, scientific and rational form - a sort that was lost in many ways in the West during the cultural destruction of the Industrial Revolution remains in the DPRK. Just listen to the absolute beauty of Mansudae - in many ways similar to the great western composers of old. And yes, there are forms of "modern" music that can be uplifting socially as well, I do not deny this; but it seems much of what is popular in the west focuses on vapid, rather than uplifting affairs.

And yes, I won't deny that the DPRK has had incredibly hard struggles. From before its formation indeed until the present, it has been engaged in a state of war with the United States - the highest funded military on earth. It has had trade sanctions placed upon it by most of the outside world. And indeed, because of such burdens, the people of this nation have suffered incredibly. But the people of North Korea have such a determination to endure, to fight through such suffering, to try to better themselves. And there's something beautifully human about that. Per capita, there is far less money to go around in the DPRK, but it has a government that actually cares about its people. There is universal healthcare, housing, and education (including post-secondary to those who choose such). The United States, a nation with so much more to go around, has none of these. And so when judging nations, I for one would certainly say that the nation who tries its best with what little it has is far better than the nation who does nothing for its own citizens despite the means to do so.

The DPRK has a government that actually cares about its people. Great Leader Kim Il Sung, when elected President of the entire nation would still humbly labor alongside the workers of his nation, learning from them, until his declining health in his late seventies made this impossible. He never dressed extravagantly or arrogantly as do the celebrities of this nation who earn their fame through vapid pursuits, instead dressing in a humble grey jacket. He was a man who lived and died by his motto "The people are my gods" (a motto I have made my own) - and risked and sacrificed more than most any for their sake. Such a man I would gladly follow, as I would know he had my best interests at stake.

What is there to be had in the United States but this farce of a democracy. Where every 4 years I can put a dot on a ballot beside the name of one of these worthless fuckers who all care far, far more for the interests of large corporations than those of the common person, whatever supposedly different "party" happens to be by their name. Who will make whatever promises are necessary to get elected then stab their own supporters in the back for corporate interests. This is no democracy, not in the true sense. This is a sick, dehumanizing society in every sense.

*Sigh* I guess I was just born too early or too late. Or at least in the wrong part of the world. But I long to live in a world where, to borrow from Plato, the philosophers and artists (in the true sense) are kings. And as far as I'm concerned, Juche seems like the closest thing to that we have in the modern world.

So hail the Great Leader, Eternal President Kim Il Sung, Suyrong, Lodestar of the Revolution! And death to all facets of culture that pervert and degrade humanity! Life to all that uplift, liberate and advance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hx78HDw8Jw

The movie you saw was "Oorlogswinter", based on the book of Jan Terlouw. I was quite unhappy about that movie as it was made in English. Something I directly connect with the selling out of our Dutch culture and heritage, which you don't find a lot these days. The only thing that keeps the Dutch really unified, and gives us Dutchmen a feeling of Dutchness is the royal family. People who, by drawing signatures, make probably millions a year. Meanwhile the recently elected government "Rutte I", with liberal Mark Rutte as premier, is planning to cut the welfare-budget, directly affecting all of the poor who can't get by as it is now. At the expence of the poor, the government wishes to pay the royal family and buy a jet-fighter nobody needs.

I also see a line between what you describe and a process I call "Amerikanisering" Americanisation. The people I know seem to think of America as some kind of paradise where you can do everything while making money. The American dream is still very vivid in the Netherlands. I know what happens to the homeless there, in America. They are treated with the lowest form of disrespect and letting them starve apperantly is not immoral. They aren't working so it's their fault, I always here. Some months ago, I heard on the news that 25% of the American children are underfed. 25%! But hey, I hear saying again, then the parents should work. Then I remember the part where the kid says his father works overday in a factory and that his mother cleans houses overnight, and they still don't have enough money to sufficiently feed themselves let alone their children.

The DPRK, however isn't much better.

Your attraction with the DPRK reminds me a lot of me and the GDR. I have always loved the simple style of East-Berlin. The Socialist greetings everywhere. I have been to Berlin and I have visited the Karl-Marxallee. It was beautiful. The fountain, the Plattenbau I loved every single bit of it. When visiting the city, however, I didn't forget the atrocities that occured. People, shot for wanting to go away. For not wanting to be a part of the "Project" called the DDR.

Culture is what pulled me towards the GDR. The beautiful Solidaritätslied (Solidarity song) made by Bertolt Brecht, written by Hanns Eisler and sung by Ernst Busch. They believed in the GDR. They saw it as a new true Socialist state.

But how is it possible for a true Socialist state to call itself democratic, when votes are most probably already decided? A state where the Stasi keeps track of all it's citizens and makes sure nobody does anything "against state security". If this was the destined Socialist state Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had imagined, then why did everyone want to leave?

North-Korea will fall. This will not be comparible with the GDR. The DPRK will starve itself to death unless it seeks help from the outside. Let's hope for a peaceful unification with South-Korea. I wouldn't count on it though.

[AustriaHungaryBohemia]

And it seems that every trait that we have that separates us from animals, American culture reviles. Intellectuals for the most part are marginalized, often outright mocked in our culture, and such is seen as normal. American culture idolizes the vapid, the hedonistic, the anti-intellectual. With few exceptions our culture's celebrities - the wealthiest, most famous individuals - are not those who advance our level of knowledge or consciousness, but rather idiotic individuals who are only attractive in a skin-deep fashion, lacking any real character or mindset to strive for more, to improve themselves, to improve mankind.

And North Korea supports intellectuals how? Can you name even one important North Korean intellectual, or a significant contribution of that country to the humanities?

How could any rational person justify a society in which such worthless vapid celebrities parade around with millions upon millions of dollars and are worshiped by good sections of the populace almost as gods; when the group of brilliant scientists working around the clock to find a cure for cancer, the teacher who works her ass off trying to provide a better education and future for her pupils, the firefighter who puts his life on the line to help save the lives of others - all of them, with few exceptions live unknown and often with barely enough to get by. Our society has contempt for those most noble, human amongst us and worship for the most worthless. An utterly backwards, disgusting way of things. And I absolutely despise it.

As opposed to North Korea, where some fatso is honoured as the "Dear Leader" by birthright? Where there is a literal cult of personality?

Education and intellectualism are reviled in this culture. The American education system decays while it spends billions upon billions in foreign wars of aggression. Teachers and even university professors make meager money at best, while vapid entertainers roll in cash and fame. Even within the very institutions of education themselves, anti-intellectual sentiments are tolerated and ney, even promoted. Students showing too much interest in intellectual pursuits rather than the vapidity of pop culture are ostracized, harassed. Even in my own university experience - voluntary higher education at one of the more prestigious schools in the United States, I've noted that the vast majority of students here (around 80% or so I'd posit) are for more interested in trivial pointless matters than those of philosophy, intellectualism, improving themselves and the world around them. Students even are far more likely to discuss the latest football game, party, or girl/guy they banged than anything that expands and uplifts the mind. And in what is supposed to be an institution of learning and improvement, that is a bad, bad sign.

As opposed to North Korea with its "Military First" ideology and its tendency to invest all of its scarce resources in new military toys?

In the general population, it's drastically worse. Religious fundamentalism has such a hold of the population this backwards nation that even after more than a century of hard evidence on the matter, the majority of Americans do not accept evolution, show antipathy towards anyone lacking "perfectly straight" sexuality based on the dictates of some ancient scrolls. I don't mean to make a case against religion as a whole, as in many cases it can be quite uplifting to the human spirit: many sects of Buddhism and Liberation Theology come to mind. But religion as it has taken root in America seems, on aggregate to be very contrary to everything I have listed as separating humanity from other animals.

While any kind of religion (even the "uplifting" ones) except for leader worship is severely repressed in North Korea?

We live in an incredibly sick, decaying culture in the United States - and yet the majority of the population is content with such an existence. Everything that separates us from other animals, all that is human is rapidly being lost. Mindless hedonism is the virtue of the day. Consume consume consume. Party party party. Fuck fuck fuck. And don't get me wrong - there is certainly a place for such pleasures in life. But when higher virtues, our intelligence, our social progression are abandoned, then we lose a core part of our humanity.

True. In North Korea it's "The Party, The Party, The Party". Big difference.

And for all the pretenses of "freedom", "equality", and "democracy", we have precious little of any. There's an enormous wealth disparity in this nation, even more exacerbated when one brings race into the matter. And it's growing faster than ever.

You mean, like the enormous wealth disparity between a starving peasant and the "Dear Leader"?

Women are dehumanized and exploited in this society (saying nothing of the inequalities in pay/benefits/etc. in the financial sphere) - viewed as sexual objects to gratify a male's desires; instead of being seen as fellow, worthy human beings with all the same value and potential as any other. Unlike most in this society (from what I've observed at least), I actually have a great deal of respect for my girlfriend (and most all female members of the human species unless they've specifically done something to earn my scorn, for that matter). I see her yes as physically attractive, but beyond that an absolutely beautiful mind and personality. She's an amazingly intelligent person, and we've had absolutely intriguing conversations and all sorts of matters - most all of them far surpassing in value the worthless hedonism of this society. These things I value far above any physical matters. Yet our sick culture is such that women are under such pressure to conform to male's image of skin-deep "beauty" that many develop psychological trauma/starve themselves/otherwise harm themselves. That is a sick and dehumanizing culture, and I want zero part in it. And just the thought that this society would want to subject my girlfriend, my sisters, my female friends - or anyone for that matter to such a thing - for that I hate it.

Even if we leave aside certain rumours about a 2000 - strong "pleasure corps" being run by the North Korean government... the North Korean regime exerts no pressure to conform? If anything, the opposite is true.

Racial minorities are dehumanized and exploited. There is a strong correlation of poverty and race, and African Americans are far, far disproportionately incarcerated than any other ethnicity (the US prison system is also the largest both in total numbers and per capita of any nation on earth).

An unfair comparison. North Korea does not HAVE racial minorities.

Many are discriminated against based upon their sexual orientation or religion (or lack thereof). I could go on and on, but the evidence should be self-evident to any who views the matter with a critical eye.

While in North Korea people are discriminated against for their political views.

America's culture is one that despises all that sets humanity above other species of animals and loves that which robs us of our humanity. Just look to the popular media in this nation - Jersey Shore, Ke$ha, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears. Absolutely anti-intellectual, hedonistic, mindless drivel is elevated to a status of influence, and that which seeks to uplift humanity is scorned and marginalized. Even outside of the aggregious matters of its foreign policy and great injustices of its economic system, this is reason enough for me to absolutely detest the culture of the United States.

Endless vapid hymns of praise for the "Dear Leader" are so much more uplifting.

And obviously there are exceptions to this. I myself am a United States citizen (though not very proud of the fact honestly), and certainly wouldn't think myself falling into the mindset of the "average" American. Nor, would I posit, would most people on this site. The very fact that we're having a conversation on these matters demonstrates that we are rather separate from the rather "mainstream" culture of America. But those like myself, and I presume many of you, are rather marginalized and alienated in this culture in lieu of vapid hedonism and consumerism. And, I think in an objective reading of things, no other nation on earth has such a distorted, anti-intellectual, dehumanizing culture. Sadly though, many of the other nations on earth are importing this poison. *Sigh*

"Objective" meaning "yours", right?

I guess then, switching gears. What draws me so much to the DPRK over any other communist nation is not so much its structure of government or economy per se, but its culture and philosophy. In Juche philosophy, society is seen as composed of the hammer, sickle, and paintbrush. The paintbrush, representing the intellectuals and artists is at the center, the forefront of society - and indeed, it is seen as being imperative that it must be there. Culturally then, the DPRK is almost as foreign from the US as one can get. There are no vapid, mindless celebrities. The heroes of society are the philosopher, the intellectual, the professor, the artist, the soldier. A society as it should be. Those viewed in high esteem in Juche are those who attempt to better themselves and mankind instead of stagnating in mindless hedonism. There is honor, humanity in such a culture. And that is what draws me to it.

Of course, the ones who do get honoured are a dead guy and an obese movie addict. So, no dice for lofty ideals, I guess.

Art, in its true, scientific and rational form - a sort that was lost in many ways in the West during the cultural destruction of the Industrial Revolution remains in the DPRK. Just listen to the absolute beauty of Mansudae - in many ways similar to the great western composers of old. And yes, there are forms of "modern" music that can be uplifting socially as well, I do not deny this; but it seems much of what is popular in the west focuses on vapid, rather than uplifting affairs.

In painting, it's mostly "socialist realism", which was invented in the Stalinist era - hardly pre - industrial, even for Russia.

And yes, I won't deny that the DPRK has had incredibly hard struggles. From before its formation indeed until the present, it has been engaged in a state of war with the United States - the highest funded military on earth. It has had trade sanctions placed upon it by most of the outside world. And indeed, because of such burdens, the people of this nation have suffered incredibly. But the people of North Korea have such a determination to endure, to fight through such suffering, to try to better themselves. And there's something beautifully human about that. Per capita, there is far less money to go around in the DPRK, but it has a government that actually cares about its people. There is universal healthcare, housing, and education (including post-secondary to those who choose such). The United States, a nation with so much more to go around, has none of these. And so when judging nations, I for one would certainly say that the nation who tries its best with what little it has is far better than the nation who does nothing for its own citizens despite the means to do so.

Poor North Korea. How could it have survived with only the support of China and the Soviet Union?

The DPRK has a government that actually cares about its people. Great Leader Kim Il Sung, when elected President of the entire nation would still humbly labor alongside the workers of his nation, learning from them, until his declining health in his late seventies made this impossible. He never dressed extravagantly or arrogantly as do the celebrities of this nation who earn their fame through vapid pursuits, instead dressing in a humble grey jacket. He was a man who lived and died by his motto "The people are my gods" (a motto I have made my own) - and risked and sacrificed more than most any for their sake. Such a man I would gladly follow, as I would know he had my best interests at stake.

He also had a good - for nothing son. You may have heard of him. He humbly watches movies all day and has very humble parades in honour of his great humility. Humbly.

What is there to be had in the United States but this farce of a democracy. Where every 4 years I can put a dot on a ballot beside the name of one of these worthless fuckers who all care far, far more for the interests of large corporations than those of the common person, whatever supposedly different "party" happens to be by their name. Who will make whatever promises are necessary to get elected then stab their own supporters in the back for corporate interests. This is no democracy, not in the true sense. This is a sick, dehumanizing society in every sense.

Point. North Koreans do not even get the semblance of democracy.

*Sigh* I guess I was just born too early or too late. Or at least in the wrong part of the world. But I long to live in a world where, to borrow from Plato, the philosophers and artists (in the true sense) are kings. And as far as I'm concerned, Juche seems like the closest thing to that we have in the modern world.

Philosopher kings? Really? Name one important North Korean philosopher. And this "Juche" stuff is Stalinism. Plain and simple. Not very original, really, since Stalinism is warmed over Lenininsm. Which is warmed over Marxism.

So hail the Great Leader, Eternal President Kim Il Sung, Suyrong, Lodestar of the Revolution! And death to all facets of culture that pervert and degrade humanity! Life to all that uplift, liberate and advance!

Hail to the great minds of the free world, who refuse to raise anyone to the status of god because they know human fallibility! And death to all who pretentiously and "provocatively" pretend to support one of the worst dictators of the modern world because they did not enjoy "Survivor"! (I am not going to parody your last phrase, since the grammar is its own parody)

P. S. Your post is much more enjoyable when you imagine it read in a bored, nasal voice by some pale guy holding a glass of red wine.

[Hydesland]

As far as I'm concerned, American culture in aggregate is the most dehumanizing, vapid, anti-intellectual, lazy, disgusting, animalistic culture I think the world has ever seen.

Fucking hypocrite, you making outrageous, dehumanizing and obviously bullshit generalizations about 300 million fucking people and have the audacity to call them dehumanizing, lazy, disgusting and anti-intellectual. I can't fucking stay on this forum when you're allowed to get away with this insane bullshit. Every single post you ever make is so fucking wrong and absolutely contradictory not only to all rigorous academia, economics and history, but also common sense.

edit: welcome to my ignore list. Congratulations, you're the first person in nearly 6 years who has managed to be so obnoxious and manifestly wrong about everything so as to make it on that list.

[Hallistar]

Funny, these days I cannot seem to find a supporter of North Korea and its regime who used to actually live there, experience it, and happened to get out...the brainwashed, censored yet starving people living in it might say otherwise. Fascists for that matter and communists sure do seem to mainly reside in countries that do not follow those ideologies as well.

[New Rogernomics]

If you are brainwashed that your brutal dictator is god then sure you would be happy, or maybe the people were threatened with death or less food if they didn't claim they were. I stand corrected, there are polls and surveys more biased than those you find on fox news.

[Hallistar]

If you are brainwashed that your brutal dictator is god then sure you would be happy, or maybe the people were threatened with death or less food if they didn't claim they were. I stand corrected, there are polls and surveys more biased than those you find on fox news.

Even more hilarious when proper polls analyzing health, education and living conditions and relative freedom are compared to the farce propoganda of a poll that North Korea made up. Sure is funny how every western country managed to get rock bottom and all of the oppressive regimes seem to do high in terms of happiness. I feel sorry for those who disagreed with such a poll in North Korea and are probably going under vivisection in its dungeons prisons internment areas happy places.

[Norstal]

As far as I'm concerned, American culture in aggregate is the most dehumanizing, vapid, anti-intellectual, lazy, disgusting, animalistic culture I think the world has ever seen. Certainly there are the rare, thankful exceptions to this, but I think that American culture is for the advancement of the human consciousness much akin to a deadly poison.

I don't need to read the rest of your post. As long as NK still receives foreign aid from other countries, we are better than them culturally, economically, politically, and militarily. Foreign aid shows that NK is made of fail, is failing, and will continue to fail. If you are ignorant at this, fine, ignore my post.

But, I want everyone to take note. If Tokyoni doesn't move to NK in, say, 5 years? We will know that he's just a troll. How do we know he moved to NK? Well, for one, he's not going to be online anymore.

[Hallistar]

As far as I'm concerned, American culture in aggregate is the most dehumanizing, vapid, anti-intellectual, lazy, disgusting, animalistic culture I think the world has ever seen. Certainly there are the rare, thankful exceptions to this, but I think that American culture is for the advancement of the human consciousness much akin to a deadly poison.

I don't need to read the rest of your post. As long as NK still receives foreign aid from other countries, we are better than them culturally, economically, politically, and militarily. Foreign aid shows that NK is made of fail, is failing, and will continue to fail. If you are ignorant at this, fine, ignore my post.

But, I want everyone to take note. If Tokyoni doesn't move to NK in, say, 5 years? We will know that he's just a troll. How do we know he moved to NK? Well, for one, he's not going to be online anymore.

Yeah he's just going to join the ranks of 'philosophers and artists' by staring at his mandated couple of posters in his residence with the 'great leaders' on it, his complementary 3 book (a little too much there) library of propoganda material, with a side of visiting the 'great leader's' monument, bowing to it everyday, hoping he can get electricity for a day, and hoping he gets something to eat once in a while. What is a better 'non-dehumanizing, non-animalistic, non-disgusting and philosophical' lifestyle than being cut open for pointless surgery with no anasthesia at all in prison if he dares question the leadership or is caught with any other kind of book? Or how about some rousing sports against those 'vapid' nations that if you happen to lose at, you're pretty much f--ked and charged with betrayl?

[Norstal]

I don't need to read the rest of your post. As long as NK still receives foreign aid from other countries, we are better than them culturally, economically, politically, and militarily. Foreign aid shows that NK is made of fail, is failing, and will continue to fail. If you are ignorant at this, fine, ignore my post.

But, I want everyone to take note. If Tokyoni doesn't move to NK in, say, 5 years? We will know that he's just a troll. How do we know he moved to NK? Well, for one, he's not going to be online anymore.

Yeah he's just going to join the ranks of 'philosophers and artists' by staring at his mandated couple of posters in his residence with the 'great leaders' on it, his complementary 3 book (a little too much there) library of propoganda material, with a side of visiting the 'great leader's' monument, bowing to it everyday, hoping he can get electricity for a day, and hoping he gets something to eat once in a while. What is a better 'non-dehumanizing, non-animalistic, non-disgusting and philosophical' lifestyle than being cut open for pointless surgery with no anasthesia at all in prison if he dares question the leadership or is caught with any other kind of book? Or how about some rousing sports against those 'vapid' nations that if you happen to lose at, you're pretty much f--ked and charged with betrayl?

But obviously, playing the existential game of Minecraft or the space opera, Mass Effect, or even watching something as good as Inception is dehumanizing. No. Instead, it is humanizing to follow a short, fat, impotent man wherever he goes with no questions. Oh, and it's also humanizing to spend millions on military equipment to parade it around your cities for no fucking reason whatsoever.

[The monarch formerly known as Prince]

Guys? Are y'all kidding? Their leader produces no human waste and when he was born, the earth was so happy it released a flock of doves and created a rainbow right across the sky. He once did a full round of golf with a score of 19 (That hole that took 2 shots was put against the wall and shot dead in front of a cheering crowd for its insubordination).

Wouldn't you be happy if your leader was like that? China is only happier because they're part of an oppressive capitalist regime and are forced to swallow the party's lies.

[Weegee and Rick Steves]

hmmm...propoganda, maybe?

[Hallistar]

Yeah he's just going to join the ranks of 'philosophers and artists' by staring at his mandated couple of posters in his residence with the 'great leaders' on it, his complementary 3 book (a little too much there) library of propoganda material, with a side of visiting the 'great leader's' monument, bowing to it everyday, hoping he can get electricity for a day, and hoping he gets something to eat once in a while. What is a better 'non-dehumanizing, non-animalistic, non-disgusting and philosophical' lifestyle than being cut open for pointless surgery with no anasthesia at all in prison if he dares question the leadership or is caught with any other kind of book? Or how about some rousing sports against those 'vapid' nations that if you happen to lose at, you're pretty much f--ked and charged with betrayl?

But obviously, playing the existential game of Minecraft or the space opera, Mass Effect, or even watching something as good as Inception is dehumanizing. No. Instead, it is humanizing to follow a short, fat, impotent man wherever he goes with no questions. Oh, and it's also humanizing to spend millions on military equipment to parade it around your cities for no fucking reason whatsoever.

But....but...but I thought "The DPRK has a government that actually cares about its people. Great Leader Kim Il Sung, when elected President of the entire nation would still humbly labor alongside the workers of his nation, learning from them, until his declining health in his late seventies made this impossible. He never dressed extravagantly or arrogantly as do the celebrities of this nation who earn their fame through vapid pursuits, instead dressing in a humble grey jacket. He was a man who lived and died by his motto "The people are my gods" (a motto I have made my own) - and risked and sacrificed more than most any for their sake. Such a man I would gladly follow, as I would know he had my best interests at stake."

DAMNIT THE GREAT LEADER CARES ABOUT YOU AND SACRIFICES FOR YOU. YOU ARE HIS GOD.

[Legionium]

"Haha! What a happy life it is to work like a dog, earn ridiculously low paychecks and have no human rights! How could we ever be happier?"

Umm...How about not working on holidays? -.-

Both those first two countries have got to be phony. Cuba is the real happiest place in the world, it's all a big party in the Caribbean there

[Sibirsky]

I also see a line between what you describe and a process I call "Amerikanisering" Americanisation. The people I know seem to think of America as some kind of paradise where you can do everything while making money. The American dream is still very vivid in the Netherlands. I know what happens to the homeless there, in America. They are treated with the lowest form of disrespect and letting them starve apperantly is not immoral. They aren't working so it's their fault, I always here. Some months ago, I heard on the news that 25% of the American children are underfed. 25%! But hey, I hear saying again, then the parents should work. Then I remember the part where the kid says his father works overday in a factory and that his mother cleans houses overnight, and they still don't have enough money to sufficiently feed themselves let alone their children.

We have shelters and homes for the homeless. Soup kitchens, and charities that work with them. Some offer jobs. There are also numerous government programs for them.

25% is high, and sensationalist media. It's closer to 14.6%. Not that it's a good number, it's still too much. But you're painting a very dark, cold, and uncaring picture of America, and that simply isn't the case. Americans are very generous people and care about the poor and homeless. Panhandlers can easily make over $100 a day. That just wouldn't happen if people did not care. Further, there many government programs, like food stamps, welfare, rent assistance and so on.

[Hallistar]

I also see a line between what you describe and a process I call "Amerikanisering" Americanisation. The people I know seem to think of America as some kind of paradise where you can do everything while making money. The American dream is still very vivid in the Netherlands. I know what happens to the homeless there, in America. They are treated with the lowest form of disrespect and letting them starve apperantly is not immoral. They aren't working so it's their fault, I always here. Some months ago, I heard on the news that 25% of the American children are underfed. 25%! But hey, I hear saying again, then the parents should work. Then I remember the part where the kid says his father works overday in a factory and that his mother cleans houses overnight, and they still don't have enough money to sufficiently feed themselves let alone their children.

We have shelters and homes for the homeless. Soup kitchens, and charities that work with them. Some offer jobs. There are also numerous government programs for them.

25% is high, and sensationalist media. It's closer to 14.6%. Not that it's a good number, it's still too much. But you're painting a very dark, cold, and uncaring picture of America, and that simply isn't the case. Americans are very generous people and care about the poor and homeless. Panhandlers can easily make over $100 a day. That just wouldn't happen if people did not care. Further, there many government programs, like food stamps, welfare, rent assistance and so on.

There's american poverty

Then there's third-world/communist/fascist poverty

Funny how a surprising amount of people on the welfare system do not even work in the first place.

[Sibirsky]

As far as I'm concerned, American culture in aggregate is the most dehumanizing, vapid, anti-intellectual, lazy, disgusting, animalistic culture I think the world has ever seen.

Fucking hypocrite, you making outrageous, dehumanizing and obviously bullshit generalizations about 300 million fucking people and have the audacity to call them dehumanizing, lazy, disgusting and anti-intellectual. I can't fucking stay on this forum when you're allowed to get away with this insane bullshit. Every single post you ever make is so fucking wrong and absolutely contradictory not only to all rigorous academia, economics and history, but also common sense.

edit: welcome to my ignore list. Congratulations, you're the first person in nearly 6 years who has managed to be so obnoxious and manifestly wrong about everything so as to make it on that list.

[Sibirsky]

We have shelters and homes for the homeless. Soup kitchens, and charities that work with them. Some offer jobs. There are also numerous government programs for them.

25% is high, and sensationalist media. It's closer to 14.6%. Not that it's a good number, it's still too much. But you're painting a very dark, cold, and uncaring picture of America, and that simply isn't the case. Americans are very generous people and care about the poor and homeless. Panhandlers can easily make over $100 a day. That just wouldn't happen if people did not care. Further, there many government programs, like food stamps, welfare, rent assistance and so on.

There's american poverty

Then there's third-world/communist/fascist poverty

Funny how a surprising amount of people on the welfare system do not even work in the first place.

Yeah. In the first part he isn't talking about American poverty, he's talking about extreme poverty and it's pretty bad. But not very common. But Americans in poverty generally live well, compared to middle classes and even the rich of the third world. Some live ok even by some European standards.

[Hallistar]

There's american poverty

Then there's third-world/communist/fascist poverty

Funny how a surprising amount of people on the welfare system do not even work in the first place.

Yeah. In the first part he isn't talking about American poverty, he's talking about extreme poverty and it's pretty bad. But not very common. But Americans in poverty generally live well, compared to middle classes and even the rich of the third world. Some live ok even by some European standards.

You'd know it when a certain size of people here seem to hate almost all of those on the welfare system and won't stop protesting it

[Outer Chaosmosis]

Now, what in the world makes you think I support these organizations,

I could care less whether your support them or not. I am pointing out that they exist and facilitate the sorts of exploitation at issue in our broader discussion.

or that they are capitalist?

Interesting question from the person who basically said that the IMF works to "support its banker friends." Honestly, do you even comprehend the things you write, because you seem to contradict yourself in every post you make. Anyway, as I have already observed several times, the IMF allows Capitalist exploitation of regions by forcing deregulation.

Ironically, a cookie cutter socialist politician ran it last.

Which, of course, does nothing to change the fact that the organization itself is a vital part of the expolitative global capitalist apparatus upon which the West depends. Nice attempt at obfuscation though.

Of course it's painful. That doesn't make it a bad thing. I

It sure as hell does for those it kills and forces into slavery.

That's not name calling. There are no perverse impulses in capitalism. Socialism is responsible for far more environmental damage.

Such environmental damage as has ever been caused by socialist countries has been prompted by situations forced upon those countries by the West (trade restrictions, sabotage, military threats). Likewise, of course, your claim is objectively untrue. Capitalism is and has been in power virtually worldwide for centuries now and in that time in has been the driving force behind resource exploitation, deforestation, and pollution. The loss of the rainforests? Capitalism. The production of cheap consumer goods that fill landfills and pollute the oceans? Capitalism. The destruction of the Ozone? Capitalism (again, in the form of the demand for aerosolized domestic products). The list goes on and on.

So politicians have it a bit backwards, this is shocking?

But they don't have it backwards. That is the frightening part: For the Capitalist economy to survive, you have to consume, consume, consume. To keep up that level of consumption, you need disposal goods in vast quantities: If it breaks, throw it away. If it is out of style, buy a new one. And, above all, buy it whether you need it or not, whether it has any use or not, whether it kills the planet or involves the exploitation of another human being or not.

Teachers are not questioned about politics prior to hire. Children do not swear loyalty to the country or the system.

1) Yes they are (these laws and policies are still on the books across the country).

2) Sure they do. Ever hear of the Pledge of Allegiance?

As far as the wars, what makes you think I support that?

I could care less whether you think you support them. The fact is, you support the system (indeed, you are a fanatical, droning, apologist for it) and, ergo, you support its acts of aggression.

There was very little trade between the USSR and the west. Yes, the were some embargoes,

Thank you for conceding the point.

but nothing like Cuba or North Korea.

Virtually no one traded with the USSR for the first decades of its existence and it was kept at arms length even afterwards.

More revisionist history! How refreshing. The Canton System not only restricted certain items, but it restricted the European's access to the mainland, no matter what the goods were.

1) ...and those goods were, principally, drugs and other illegal items. The actually event that triggered the first Opium war was actually the destruction of one such shipment of poison, to which the British responded by way of mass murder.

2) So what? China had every right to restrict the access of drug-peddling colonialists and thieves to its mainland, given the West's long history of exploiting and stealing from the Middle Kingdom.

It's not controlled by the west. They are big boys and think for themselves.

The old capitalist lie: leave someone a choice between death/persecution and doing things the Capitalist, Western colonialist way, and then (when they decide they don't want to die), excuse the atrocities that follow by saying they had a "choice."

Being brutal as far as labor reform, well that's an authoritarian government for you.

An authoritarian government prompted by Capitalism. Such brutality is only necessitated by the demands of the Market and the needs of China's neo-colonial "partners." Every brutality and death that results can be laid squarely at the feet of the corporations and the neo-colonialists who enable them.

Being a larger polluter as the economy grows is common. They are using more energy, after all. Call it growing pains.

Those "growing pains" are destroying the world. Likewise, we have no reason to suppose that they will ever go away. Even if China does become another "successful" capitalist state, the need for cheap labor will remain, and the cycle will resume elsewhere until every resource is gone, every body of water poisoned, every tree felled, and every river dammed.

My points are supported by reality. Your points are supported by revisionism.

Again, rather than make an argument, you simply blubber "but is true!" And curse and moan when I do not simply take you at your (self-contradictory) word.

You were name calling, I answered in kind.

Show me where I did any such thing.

The mere fact that you are defending socialism, to the fullest, is evidence that you do not grasp the reality of economics. Without free markets, you cannot allocate resources efficiently. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

"Anyone who supports socialism is wrong. Therefore, the things you say in support of socialism are wrong, because you support socialism." Does your buffoonery know no bounds? You realize that this sort of fallacious (Poisoning the Well, to be exact) circularity merely exposes your utter unwillingness or inability to offer real arguments.

I think I do well enough.

That makes one of us. This is an English language forum, and I am well within my rights to expect someone who chooses to (ahem) "debate" with me (if I can call what you are doing debating) to be clear in the use of language. So, save your Appeals to Pity for someone who gives a damn.

Absurd claims? Reality is not an absurd claim.

Reality is not a claim at all. Reality is what claims refer to.

I provided examples, and reasons.

You assert that things are the case, but you do not actually support you claims. Throwing tantrums when someone disagrees with you and exposes the faultiness of your dogmatic position is not the same as actually arguing.

More garbage. The Canton System started it

How, pray, did the system "start it?" By attempting to control trade and movement within its own borders, you are saying that the Chinese invited being attacked, killed, and exploited? By attempting to limit the access of drug trading thieves to the mainland, you are saying that the Chinese deserved to lose their own ability have a say in the destiny of their own nation?

When push comes to shove, you are merely an apologist for drug dealers.

[Norstal]

But obviously, playing the existential game of Minecraft or the space opera, Mass Effect, or even watching something as good as Inception is dehumanizing. No. Instead, it is humanizing to follow a short, fat, impotent man wherever he goes with no questions. Oh, and it's also humanizing to spend millions on military equipment to parade it around your cities for no fucking reason whatsoever.

But....but...but I thought "The DPRK has a government that actually cares about its people. Great Leader Kim Il Sung, when elected President of the entire nation would still humbly labor alongside the workers of his nation, learning from them, until his declining health in his late seventies made this impossible. He never dressed extravagantly or arrogantly as do the celebrities of this nation who earn their fame through vapid pursuits, instead dressing in a humble grey jacket. He was a man who lived and died by his motto "The people are my gods" (a motto I have made my own) - and risked and sacrificed more than most any for their sake. Such a man I would gladly follow, as I would know he had my best interests at stake."

DAMNIT THE GREAT LEADER CARES ABOUT YOU AND SACRIFICES FOR YOU. YOU ARE HIS GOD.

That is how I knew his gray jacket actually costs 500 trillion won. And 5000 dead baby souls.

[Sibirsky]

Outer Chaosmosis purposely leaves out points I make out of his responses, and continues his ridiculous revisionist tirade.

[Sibirsky]

I could care less whether your support them or not. I am pointing out that they exist and facilitate the sorts of exploitation at issue in our broader discussion.

Get over it.

Interesting question from the person who basically said that the IMF works to "support its banker friends." Honestly, do you even comprehend the things you write, because you seem to contradict yourself in every post you make. Anyway, as I have already observed several times, the IMF allows Capitalist exploitation of regions by forcing deregulation.

Yourself, Sherlock. It's a taxpayer funded organization. Which you conveniently left out of your response, since it doesn't confirm to your revisionist opinion.

Deregulation, helps.

Which, of course, does nothing to change the fact that the organization itself is a vital part of the expolitative global capitalist apparatus upon which the West depends. Nice attempt at obfuscation though.

The west does not depend on it.

It sure as hell does for those it kills and forces into slavery.

Are you that dense? Industries change. Economies change. Are you still crying about the 19 million farming jobs lost in the US?

Such environmental damage as has ever been caused by socialist countries has been prompted by situations forced upon those countries by the West (trade restrictions, sabotage, military threats). Likewise, of course, your claim is objectively untrue. Capitalism is and has been in power virtually worldwide for centuries now and in that time in has been the driving force behind resource exploitation, deforestation, and pollution. The loss of the rainforests? Capitalism. The production of cheap consumer goods that fill landfills and pollute the oceans? Capitalism. The destruction of the Ozone? Capitalism (again, in the form of the demand for aerosolized domestic products). The list goes on and on.

The USSR was not capitalist and did far more environmental damage. It would help, if you actually knew what the fuck you were talking about.

But they don't have it backwards. That is the frightening part: For the Capitalist economy to survive, you have to consume, consume, consume. To keep up that level of consumption, you need disposal goods in vast quantities: If it breaks, throw it away. If it is out of style, buy a new one. And, above all, buy it whether you need it or not, whether it has any use or not, whether it kills the planet or involves the exploitation of another human being or not.

Yes they do. The economy does not grow because people spend more. People spend more because the economy grows.

1) Yes they are (these laws and policies are still on the books across the country).

2) Sure they do. Ever hear of the Pledge of Allegiance?

1) Source of laws and a source of them being enforced.
2) A meaningless ritual, that pales in comparison to the indoctrination that takes place in socialist countries.

I could care less whether you think you support them. The fact is, you support the system (indeed, you are a fanatical, droning, apologist for it) and, ergo, you support its acts of aggression.

Damn, that kind of logic makes you a genocidal maniac.

Thank you for conceding the point.

I didn't concede the point.

Virtually no one traded with the USSR for the first decades of its existence and it was kept at arms length even afterwards.

There was trade. They didn't exactly want to trade either.

1) ...and those goods were, principally, drugs and other illegal items. The actually event that triggered the first Opium war was actually the destruction of one such shipment of poison, to which the British responded by way of mass murder.

2) So what? China had every right to restrict the access of drug-peddling colonialists and thieves to its mainland, given the West's long history of exploiting and stealing from the Middle Kingdom.

1) It was all goods.
2) Did I say they don't? I'm just pointing out the blatantly obvious reasons for the decline of the Middle Kingdom.

The old capitalist lie: leave someone a choice between death/persecution and doing things the Capitalist, Western colonialist way, and then (when they decide they don't want to die), excuse the atrocities that follow by saying they had a "choice."

Where the fuck is the bit about Mao? You're a revisionist and incapable of intellectual debate. You're just as dishonest as the tyrants you keep defending.

Mao left the situation in shambles. Market and property reform, along with trade with the west has led to an 800% increase in incomes in 3 decades. Those are facts. Something you seem to not understand.

An authoritarian government prompted by Capitalism. Such brutality is only necessitated by the demands of the Market and the needs of China's neo-colonial "partners." Every brutality and death that results can be laid squarely at the feet of the corporations and the neo-colonialists who enable them.

You sound like a broken fucking record, you know that? Mao was a capitalist too, right? Save it. Your garbage does not work here.

Those "growing pains" are destroying the world. Likewise, we have no reason to suppose that they will ever go away. Even if China does become another "successful" capitalist state, the need for cheap labor will remain, and the cycle will resume elsewhere until every resource is gone, every body of water poisoned, every tree felled, and every river dammed.

OMG the world is ending! The world is not being destroyed. It got a little warmer.

Again, rather than make an argument, you simply blubber "but is true!" And curse and moan when I do not simply take you at your (self-contradictory) word.

I'm not contradicting myself. You are contradicting facts.

Show me where I did any such thing.

Maybe you have memory problems? Perhaps that's why you think capitalism is the devil? Maybe you should go see a doctor.

So, you do not know what client means, but you then offer an opinion as to who the client in the relationship is? You cannot even go one post without contradicting yourself! Truly pathetic.

They are a US client because they are dependent upon the US and exploited by the US.

The economic system you support is pathetic.

"Anyone who supports socialism is wrong. Therefore, the things you say in support of socialism are wrong, because you support socialism." Does your buffoonery know no bounds? You realize that this sort of fallacious (Poisoning the Well, to be exact) circularity merely exposes your utter unwillingness or inability to offer real arguments.

I offer real arguments and you respond with bullshit.

That makes one of us. This is an English language forum, and I am well within my rights to expect someone who chooses to (ahem) "debate" with me (if I can call what you are doing debating) to be clear in the use of language. So, save your Appeals to Pity for someone who gives a damn.

Do you think I give a shit what you think? There is absolutely no point in your corrections of my use of English in this debate.

Reality is not a claim at all. Reality is what claims refer to.

Your claims refer to nothing resembling reality.

You assert that things are the case, but you do not actually support you claims. Throwing tantrums when someone disagrees with you and exposes the faultiness of your dogmatic position is not the same as actually arguing.

Bullshit, that's all you. Otherwise why would you care enough to correct my grammar? That's just idiotic.

How, pray, did the system "start it?" By attempting to control trade and movement within its own borders, you are saying that the Chinese invited being attacked, killed, and exploited? By attempting to limit the access of drug trading thieves to the mainland, you are saying that the Chinese deserved to lose their own ability have a say in the destiny of their own nation?

When push comes to shove, you are merely an apologist for drug dealers.

They restricted trade in everything. Trading =/= stealing.

Drug dealers provide a product. Nothing more.

[Tokyoni]

I'm trying to find a way to argue against Tokyoni... But for some reason, I find myself actually agreeing with him this time, except for a few things regarding the DPRK.

Thank you. Honestly, in a lot of ways this is deeper than mere politics or economics to me. Even before becoming a leftist, I despised the anti-intellectual, mindless consumerism that's constantly pushed on us in this society. Probably been the most common thread in my life.

[Outer Chaosmosis]

Outer Chaosmosis purposely leaves out points I make out of his responses, and continues his ridiculous revisionist tirade.

If you say so.

Please note, dear readers, that Sibi once again refusing to cite any examples of this supposed misconduct (thereby substantiating still further my own observation that (s)he is not in the habit of actually supporting positions with reasoning or evidence).

[Tokyoni]

The movie you saw was "Oorlogswinter", based on the book of Jan Terlouw. I was quite unhappy about that movie as it was made in English. Something I directly connect with the selling out of our Dutch culture and heritage, which you don't find a lot these days. The only thing that keeps the Dutch really unified, and gives us Dutchmen a feeling of Dutchness is the royal family. People who, by drawing signatures, make probably millions a year. Meanwhile the recently elected government "Rutte I", with liberal Mark Rutte as premier, is planning to cut the welfare-budget, directly affecting all of the poor who can't get by as it is now. At the expence of the poor, the government wishes to pay the royal family and buy a jet-fighter nobody needs.

I also see a line between what you describe and a process I call "Amerikanisering" Americanisation. The people I know seem to think of America as some kind of paradise where you can do everything while making money. The American dream is still very vivid in the Netherlands. I know what happens to the homeless there, in America. They are treated with the lowest form of disrespect and letting them starve apperantly is not immoral. They aren't working so it's their fault, I always here. Some months ago, I heard on the news that 25% of the American children are underfed. 25%! But hey, I hear saying again, then the parents should work. Then I remember the part where the kid says his father works overday in a factory and that his mother cleans houses overnight, and they still don't have enough money to sufficiently feed themselves let alone their children.

Gotcha. I actually really enjoyed the movie - not really knowing the controversy about the English - just because it was so much better than about 80% of the drivel that pop culture shits out in this nation. A film with actual character and courage rather than just mindless violence and CGI (and yes, of course there are good movies produced in the United States, but they're the minority in aggregate, that was my only point). As for the speaking English - well, I think it would make sense realistically that Jack, being an RAF pilot, would speaking English, as would have to the characters speaking to him. But yeah, coming as someone who doesn't know Dutch at all, took 3 years of German in highschool... umm, spoken Dutch sound similar to spoken German to me, so I couldn't really tell them apart that much, but it seemed like a hybrid of Dutch/German/English throughout most of the film. Even in like ... mid sentence at parts. Which yeah, I guess might be a little odd.

And eesh, sorry your nation is having such problems. >_< This song comes to mind. I'm really, really sorry for any problems America's government and culture is causing by proxy in the rest of the world. I'm trying my best to stop it, but I'm only one human being, and find it hard to struggle against the majority of the population who are so content in stagnation and mindless consumerism that they don't even give a damn to think about such things. The one good thing about decreasing economic conditions is that it brings such things back to people's minds for a time, but hell, who the fuck am I kidding - after they watch the latest Jersey Shore, they've entirely forgotten about it. >_<

The DPRK, however isn't much better.

Your attraction with the DPRK reminds me a lot of me and the GDR. I have always loved the simple style of East-Berlin. The Socialist greetings everywhere. I have been to Berlin and I have visited the Karl-Marxallee. It was beautiful. The fountain, the Plattenbau I loved every single bit of it. When visiting the city, however, I didn't forget the atrocities that occured. People, shot for wanting to go away. For not wanting to be a part of the "Project" called the DDR.

Culture is what pulled me towards the GDR. The beautiful Solidaritätslied (Solidarity song) made by Bertolt Brecht, written by Hanns Eisler and sung by Ernst Busch. They believed in the GDR. They saw it as a new true Socialist state.

But how is it possible for a true Socialist state to call itself democratic, when votes are most probably already decided? A state where the Stasi keeps track of all it's citizens and makes sure nobody does anything "against state security". If this was the destined Socialist state Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had imagined, then why did everyone want to leave?

North-Korea will fall. This will not be comparible with the GDR. The DPRK will starve itself to death unless it seeks help from the outside. Let's hope for a peaceful unification with South-Korea. I wouldn't count on it though.

Well, I'd contest the point that the DPRK is undemocratic. Structurally it certainly is a democracy - parliamentary in nature, with three parties having seats in their parliament, and five-year terms for their President. Party membership is open to any citizen, and in fact 12% of the population is directly a member of the KWP. The beautiful thing about the KWP is that it encourages those of proletariat and peasant classes to join the party, become involved and have a say in how their country goes; the very opposite of political parties in bourgeousies democracies who politically alienate them and their interests in the favor of large corporations. Furthermore, grassroots, local democracy is very alive in North Korea, with direct democracy being involved in local elections - who, in terms of rural communities, have far more influence over a person's life than the national government x miles away in Pyongyang.

As per issues of state security. Well, remember they're still in a state of war. Against the most heavily funded military on earth. In that position, I too would certainly prioritize such.