Genderless Child Controversy

[Maurepas]

I don't really see the problem, I mean, it doesn't say they won't allow him or her to conform to whatever role he or she wants.


I think that really the only unfortunate thing is that some stupid paper decided to run with it for a cheap news story. Exploiting them.

[Beldonia]

How many girls did you see today?

Did you physically examine any of them to make sure they didn't have penises?

But, if I did, I would be charged for sexual assault, meaning I would be banned from meeting girls. Ergo, I do not do that.

Excellent use of the word ergo. Of course, any use of that word is.

[Terra Agora]

Gender or gender identity?
You can call yourself whatever you want but if you have a penis your not a girl.

How many girls did you see today?

Did you physically examine any of them to make sure they didn't have penises?

Dont know.But I dont need to examine them. Based on the general characteristics that females have one can come to the conclusion that said person is probably a female.
Using your logic science would be a fraud. How do we know that there is no oxygen in space? You didnt check all of space did you? How do you know all rocks are hard? You haven't felt every rock have you?

[Buffalo and Moose]

It doesn't matter what sex the child is. It's going to associate with whatever gender it feels most comfortable with no matter how its raised. It just may not be as open.

[Winnemac]

Will human beings ever learn what the term PC actually means before they use it? The evidence suggests no.

[Czardas]

How many girls did you see today?

Did you physically examine any of them to make sure they didn't have penises?

Dont know.But I dont need to examine them. Based on the general characteristics that females have on can come to the conclusion that said person is probably a male/female.

Those general characteristics, however, are dependent to some degree on gender identity. A transgender female may be indistinguishable from a cisgender female except in reproductive anatomy. How people present themselves is therefore a good deal more important than the chromosomal sex when it comes to determining social gender identification.

Using your logic science would be a fraud. How do we know that there is no oxygen in space? You didnt check all of space did you? How do you know all rocks are hard? You haven't felt every rock have you?

We can draw inferences. The sun is statistically likely to rise tomorrow, for instance -- it has done so every day uninterrupted for several billion years and the chances of its disappearance are slim. That said, quantum uncertainty means that there is an extremely small possibility that the sun won't rise.

However, the probability of encountering a transgender person is many orders of magnitude larger than that -- let's say 0.5% of the general population. This means that about one of every two hundred people you meet will have a gender identity not corresponding to their birth sex. It is therefore not only not possible to state that all persons with high-pitched voices, hairless face, breasts, etc also have vaginas, but it is a statistical likelihood that at some point you will encounter a person whose gender identity is different from their physical sex. As sex can be difficult to determine, it is almost certainly gender identity you will be using to judge others. How they look, dress and act, in other words, as opposed to how many X chromosomes they might have.

[Tahar Joblis]

I don't really see the problem, I mean, it doesn't say they won't allow him or her to conform to whatever role he or she wants.


I think that really the only unfortunate thing is that some stupid paper decided to run with it for a cheap news story. Exploiting them.

This. It seems pretty silly that this is so much of a fuss. I mean, really, what's the big deal?

[Maurepas]

David Reimer. His penis was destroyed during circumcision, and in order to raise him normally, the parents had him sexually reassigned at a horribly young age.

That's different from this. In that situation, his parents and that Dr. Money forced a gender role he didn't identify with as part of a theory on the development of gender. In this case, the parents are allowing the child to identify his/herself.

It is relevant to the issue though, that is, we already know, due to the study done over that case, that gender isn't a fully "nurtured" thing.

That is, it doesn't matter what the parents decide about the kid, it doesn't matter whether there are big blue or pink signs in the kid's room. It's going to confirm to whatever he or she is, regardless. The only important thing is that the parents don't try and repress it, which the story gives no indication is going to be the case.

[Smunkeeville]

How many girls did you see today?

Did you physically examine any of them to make sure they didn't have penises?

Dont know.But I dont need to examine them. Based on the general characteristics that females have one can come to the conclusion that said person is probably a female.
Using your logic science would be a fraud. How do we know that there is no oxygen in space? You didnt check all of space did you? How do you know all rocks are hard? You haven't felt every rock have you?

Male or Female?

[Maurepas]

Dont know.But I dont need to examine them. Based on the general characteristics that females have one can come to the conclusion that said person is probably a female.
Using your logic science would be a fraud. How do we know that there is no oxygen in space? You didnt check all of space did you? How do you know all rocks are hard? You haven't felt every rock have you?

Male or Female?

I think I'm gonna put my money on male, but just because I think I'm supposed to guess that it's female and be wrong.

What is the spread on the choices?

[Smunkeeville]

Male or Female?

I think I'm gonna put my money on male, but just because I think I'm supposed to guess that it's female and be wrong.

What is the spread on the choices?

You'll be wrong either way. She has a vagina and testes. She looks like, acts like and is a woman. She also has some "boy parts". She was born with both. I wonder where the "parts police" would place her on the binary. She's a woman because she's a woman, obviously. Gender has nothing to do with what "parts" you got.

[Maurepas]

I think I'm gonna put my money on male, but just because I think I'm supposed to guess that it's female and be wrong.

What is the spread on the choices?

You'll be wrong either way. She has a vagina and testes. She looks like, acts like and is a woman. She also has some "boy parts". She was born with both. I wonder where the "parts police" would place her on the binary. She's a woman because she's a woman, obviously. Gender has nothing to do with what "parts" you got.

Damn, should've known, the house always wins, >_>

But I was making a joke about gambling, I agree entirely with the point.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I'm really quite uneasy about this. While I'm a fan of challenging gender roles in most cases, this has an unpleasant whiff of experimenting on a child for political purposes. I'm struggling to see a scenario in which the child benefits, especially when the media attention is taken into account (I believe they originally agreed to participate in a number of interviews and publicised their stance).

1) If they're not transgender, they've had a childhood in the media spotlight being shunned by other kids.
2) If they're transgender, they've still experienced that childhood but the future stigma from being transgender isn't going to go away.

Regardless of what the child is taught at home, they have to go out into a world where gender matters and where gender is largely binary. It would seem far kinder to the child to give them the greatest chance of fitting in by providing them with the visual cues in dress and name of the gender they are likely to grow up to be, while offering the child opportunities to take part in a variety of activities and play with a variety of toys associated with both girls and boys. Encourage a willingness to think across gender boundaries and not to judge people based purely on gender. Provide a tolerant atmosphere, and if the child happens to be transgender they'll come to you and you can deal with it then. I'm sure they mean well, but I think the manner they're attempting to pre-empt the possibility in this way suggests an over-familiarity with radical theory over the practical realities of responsibly raising a child.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

How exactly do they expect this to go over well when the child enters school?..

I was pondering the same. I'm fairly sure this hush hush about the child's sex will blow over come preschool when potty training questions and which bathroom to use issues arise. This isn't a long-term secret.

As far as using the child to make a point, I am a bit disturbed by this. While there is no point in making a point if nobody is there to get the point (the whole concept of NSG, I believe), using your child to make this point, even without the media limelight, could be dangerous. It really depends on how the parents manage their raising of the child, especially situations that require a form of gender acknowledgment arise. One can raise a child in a sex-neutral environment without creating identity issues.

Once the child reaches an age of coherence that allows him/her to choose a gender identity, then let the child choose it. Don't leave the child in the dark until then.

[Cresilia]

These people make me ashamed to call myself a Canadian...

[RhynoD]

How do we know that there is no oxygen in space? You didnt check all of space did you? How do you know all rocks are hard? You haven't felt every rock have you?

Believe it or not, there are [legitimate (if not taken completely serious)] scientists that suggest that, in fact since we haven't checked all of space, that not all of space obeys the same physical laws as the local space that we have observed. IE: Yes, since we have not observed what space is like 44 billion lightyears away, it's entirely possible that e=cm^2 or something crazy like that way out there.

EDIT: And by "not taken completely serious" I don't mean that other scientists point and laugh at them, I mean that other scientists agree that it's entirely possible but dismiss it as unlikely and then they all move on to something more important, like String Theory.

[Maurepas]

I'm really quite uneasy about this. While I'm a fan of challenging gender roles in most cases, this has an unpleasant whiff of experimenting on a child for political purposes. I'm struggling to see a scenario in which the child benefits, especially when the media attention is taken into account (I believe they originally agreed to participate in a number of interviews and publicised their stance).

1) If they're not transgender, they've had a childhood in the media spotlight being shunned by other kids.
2) If they're transgender, they've still experienced that childhood but the future stigma from being transgender isn't going to go away.

Regardless of what the child is taught at home, they have to go out into a world where gender matters and where gender is largely binary. It would seem far kinder to the child to give them the greatest chance of fitting in by providing them with the visual cues in dress and name of the gender they are likely to grow up to be, while offering the child opportunities to take part in a variety of activities and play with a variety of toys associated with both girls and boys. Encourage a willingness to think across gender boundaries and not to judge people based purely on gender. Provide a tolerant atmosphere, and if the child happens to be transgender they'll come to you and you can deal with it then. I'm sure they mean well, but I think the manner they're attempting to pre-empt the possibility in this way suggests an over-familiarity with radical theory over the practical realities of responsibly raising a child.

Now that I didn't know, I think the whether that is the case is what it hinges on, that is, if they did schedule interviews in an attempt to capitalize on the publicity, then they are solidly in the wrong, and should be reprimanded for it.

But, I don't think there's any real threat in not enforcing a particular role, I mean, I was two years old when my sister was born, and since there was only one bedroom for us, we slept on a bunk bed with all our shit in the same room. Both genders' toys available, etc., and we generally played with both of them together.

We fell into the liking dolls or action figures thing naturally.

[Buffett and Colbert]

I'm having trouble grasping how this is "political correctness."

[Threlizdun]

While I oppose strongly the typical gender roles and the belief that only two genders exist, lying to everyone in no way will help this child or the cause.

[Maurepas]

I'm having trouble grasping how this is "political correctness."

Well, I think the idea of forcing a "traditional" role is somehow not "politically correct" anymore.

I don't know why, or how, but, I think that's the idea that they're trying to present.

[Wilgrove]

That child is going to be so fucking confused when "it" enters into society at large...... honestly the parent's aren't doing him any favors by raising him this way. This reminds me of something I've heard on NPR about people of one race, adopting a child of another race. The conventional wisdom was to raise the child colorblind, so that hopefully society will become colorblind. However, what ended up happening is that these kids become ill equip to deal with racism in society and it did more harm than good. I have the same feeling about people who try to raise genderless children.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I'm really quite uneasy about this. While I'm a fan of challenging gender roles in most cases, this has an unpleasant whiff of experimenting on a child for political purposes. I'm struggling to see a scenario in which the child benefits, especially when the media attention is taken into account (I believe they originally agreed to participate in a number of interviews and publicised their stance).

1) If they're not transgender, they've had a childhood in the media spotlight being shunned by other kids.
2) If they're transgender, they've still experienced that childhood but the future stigma from being transgender isn't going to go away.

Regardless of what the child is taught at home, they have to go out into a world where gender matters and where gender is largely binary. It would seem far kinder to the child to give them the greatest chance of fitting in by providing them with the visual cues in dress and name of the gender they are likely to grow up to be, while offering the child opportunities to take part in a variety of activities and play with a variety of toys associated with both girls and boys. Encourage a willingness to think across gender boundaries and not to judge people based purely on gender. Provide a tolerant atmosphere, and if the child happens to be transgender they'll come to you and you can deal with it then. I'm sure they mean well, but I think the manner they're attempting to pre-empt the possibility in this way suggests an over-familiarity with radical theory over the practical realities of responsibly raising a child.

Now that I didn't know, I think the whether that is the case is what it hinges on, that is, if they did schedule interviews in an attempt to capitalize on the publicity, then they are solidly in the wrong, and should be reprimanded for it.

But, I don't think there's any real threat in not enforcing a particular role, I mean, I was two years old when my sister was born, and since there was only one bedroom for us, we slept on a bunk bed with all our shit in the same room. Both genders' toys available, etc., and we generally played with both of them together.

We fell into the liking dolls or action figures thing naturally.

That's more like the openness and flexibility I was advocating. But that's still a step back from raising your child genderless in the radical way these parents have tried to. I don't know. I'm seeing this through particularly tinted spectacles. I grew up feeling like a freak where gender was concerned, my worry is that the children are being placed in a situation where they're possibly going to feel alienated from society when they don't need to be.

My speculation about the publicity side are based on nothing other than vague recollections from when the story broke in the queer media over here originally.

[Sagatagan]

This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.

That was a kid who had had a botched circumcision and was raised as a girl (not given a choice). Also, he was sexually molested. So, not a great case study.

[Threlizdun]

That child is going to be so fucking confused when "it" enters into society at large...... honestly the parent's aren't doing him any favors by raising him this way. This reminds me of something I've heard on NPR about people of one race, adopting a child of another race. The conventional wisdom was to raise the child colorblind, so that hopefully society will become colorblind. However, what ended up happening is that these kids become ill equip to deal with racism in society and it did more harm than good. I have the same feeling about people who try to raise genderless children.

Yes, unfortanately these attempts can do nothing until society changes. I actually explained to my English teacher today when he corrected me for using "their" in a sentence where the correct term was supposed to be "him or her", that I never use "him or her" to refer to anyone in any situation, as there are plenty of people out there born with no sexual characteristics, both, or identifying as something they are not identified as by others.

[Wikkiwallana]

My feelings on this are mixed, and based on the limited amount of information I have from reading a single article, I think I'm going to reserve judgement until I see how thy react if the child voluntarily picks a traditional gender role as opposed to a broader one. What did worry me was the line about "unschooling" where the kids chose what they get taught and what they don't. Based on my memories of that age, that seems like a near surefire way for the kids to learn as little as they feel they can talk their parents into.