Genderless Child Controversy

[Norstal]

Would you also do psychic readings for free?

it's called a thought experiment. If you were an employer, would you hire a man dressed in a skirt who says he is female? I wouldn't

Except it's not. Shit man, all this time I keep thinking I was the one who reads it wrong.

Others have criticised Storm's parents for setting up their child for a life of bullying and notoriety. "These parents are turning their children into a bizarre lab experiment," one reader wrote to The Toronto Star.

Are Storm's parents Others or One Reader?!

[Dyakovo]

I don't see your point, because you made it up.

And did they once say that gender is wrong? Can't someone distinguish gender from gendered people, even if they do think gender is wrong?

What do you mean "made it up"? I'm saying that this child is being forced to hide their gender.

The parents not disclosing the child's gender≠the child being forced to hide his gender.

[Octopucta]

I suggest singular they.

The only winning move is not to play? Or would you like to choose an option that exists?

Others have criticised Storm's parents for setting up their child for a life of bullying and notoriety. "These parents are turning their children into a bizarre lab experiment," one reader wrote to The Toronto Star.

Are Storm's parents Others or One Reader?!

How about neither? I see it as "other people have criticized Storm's parents, including this example.

[Delmire]

I dont think the parents quite understand biology, when Storm grows a beard the choice of when to disclose the sex will no longer be his/hers, and as for choosing gender I dont think you have to keep people in suspense as to whether you have a 'ding dong' or not to decide that on your own.
Sex is written into language, education, society, sport etc. yet i dare anyone to call it sexist, its biology and culture, boys and girls are different physically and as I say, you dont need to hide the sex of a child for it to decide its gender!

I think the parents are rebelling against the whole thing not because its wrong but because it there, the child will suffer because of their want to look cool and cause a stir.

[Bottle]

In a sane world, we would have a genderless pronoun and that pronoun would be used toward children and toward people whose gender is unclear. And so none of this would be a problem.

I certainly would choose to raise my child "genderless" if it were realistically possible. Unfortunately, our society is so obsessed with gendering kids that I don't see any way to make it work. Best I can do is explain to the kid, when they're old enough, that our language (and our culture) is silly and stunted when it comes to sex and gender, so Mom and Pop did the best they could with a lousy situation, and please don't be too pissed if we didn't guess correctly for you.

[Seperate Vermont]

These parents are setting their child up for a life of torment and bullying.

In any other situation, we would be encouraging the child to live independently in the face of bullies and to stand with some self-confidence, but now we go with the status quo, suddendly as it changes to an issue of gender?

[Tekania]

These parents are setting their child up for a life of torment and bullying.

In any other situation, we would be encouraging the child to live independently in the face of bullies and to stand with some self-confidence, but now we go with the status quo, suddendly as it changes to an issue of gender?

Well, s/he might end up being a he who likes to wear pink, then all hell would break loose with plagues of locusts descending upon our innocent daffodil fields, massive volcanic eruptions all across the globe, earthquakes destroying innocent children's play-grounds finally leading to the entire universe imploding.

[Bottle]

These parents are setting their child up for a life of torment and bullying.

In any other situation, we would be encouraging the child to live independently in the face of bullies and to stand with some self-confidence, but now we go with the status quo, suddendly as it changes to an issue of gender?

Well, see, gender roles are so very NATURAL and INNATE that we have to make sure children are terrorized into conforming to them.

[Ikkoria]

huh, in the post-post-modern world that we live in people have lost their values and are gradually becoming more and more disillusioned with the norm

[Ashmoria]

In a sane world, we would have a genderless pronoun and that pronoun would be used toward children and toward people whose gender is unclear. And so none of this would be a problem.

I certainly would choose to raise my child "genderless" if it were realistically possible. Unfortunately, our society is so obsessed with gendering kids that I don't see any way to make it work. Best I can do is explain to the kid, when they're old enough, that our language (and our culture) is silly and stunted when it comes to sex and gender, so Mom and Pop did the best they could with a lousy situation, and please don't be too pissed if we didn't guess correctly for you.

thats OK. if you get it wrong theyll let you know.

[Tekania]

huh, in the post-post-modern world that we live in people have lost their values and are gradually becoming more and more disillusioned with the norm

Once you realize in any objective context of social structures that "norm" is an illusion. You'll be better off.

[Bottle]

In a sane world, we would have a genderless pronoun and that pronoun would be used toward children and toward people whose gender is unclear. And so none of this would be a problem.

I certainly would choose to raise my child "genderless" if it were realistically possible. Unfortunately, our society is so obsessed with gendering kids that I don't see any way to make it work. Best I can do is explain to the kid, when they're old enough, that our language (and our culture) is silly and stunted when it comes to sex and gender, so Mom and Pop did the best they could with a lousy situation, and please don't be too pissed if we didn't guess correctly for you.

thats OK. if you get it wrong theyll let you know.

I'm more worried about what other people will do based on the gender that I pick for a child.

For instance, I thought I was transgender for years because of how people treated me based on my assigned sex (female). It really sucked to feel like I was in the wrong body, to feel like I was a freak, to feel like there was something profoundly wrong with me. I wouldn't wish that on any kid. And the only reason I went through it was because of how other people (not my parents) forced gender on me. I think the world would be a much happier place if kids weren't gendered that way.

[Lordieth]

Are the parents giving the child real choice or a future gender identity crisis? The potential for social stigma is great. In an ideal world we should all be able to mould our identities by being introduced to a wide range of cultures, genders, and popular social practices.

But we don't live in an ideal world, and sometimes lefty wishy washy choices given to children before they fully understand the implications and consequences of them can cause serious long term harm.

Good intentions don't always equate to good parenting.

[Tekania]

Are the parents giving the child real choice or a future gender identity crisis? The potential for social stigma is great. In an ideal world we should all be able to mould our identities by being introduced to a wide range of cultures, genders, and popular social practices.

But we don't live in an ideal world, and sometimes lefty wishy washy choices given to children before they fully understand the implications and consequences of them can cause serious long term harm.

Good intentions don't always equate to good parenting.

The only way an ideal world stands a chance is when people stand up against complacency.

Slavery wasn't a vision of an ideal world, and it wasn't ended by people standing back and not making a fuss about it.

[Saint Clair Island]

Slightly off-topic, but from a feminist perspective one must question any claims of "genderlessness." Historically an awful lot of on the surface anti-gender rhetoric, including most enlightenment-era rationalist philosophies, was created and espoused by thinkers who then proceeded to define women primarily by their gender -- defying any claims to universality their ideology might have. It's that whole thing with men being considered the "default" gender and etc. A lot of that's gone to some degree by now, but you still see signs like e.g. some males claiming not to have gender identities or disagreeing with the whole concept of gender identity, simply because they've never had to deal with being defined and judged by gender, and females with non-feminine gender identities being comfortable to remain as they are while males with non-masculine gender identities adopt exaggeratedly feminine presentation etc.

Basically, the whole concept of raising a child in a non-gendered manner is really the concept of raising a child without reference to femininity -- either its presence (girls) or its absence (boys). Thus, if I had to guess, I'd venture that the child is biologically female. Could be some false assumptions here though.

Anyway, I see Dumb Ideologies has posted in this thread, so just assume I agree with anything she said, is saying or will say in the near future. :P

[Ikkoria]

[Angleter]

I'd lay fairly large money 'it' is a he.

It's called 'Storm'. So probably yes, unless they're fans of X-Men.

[SD_Film Artists]

I'd lay fairly large money 'it' is a he.

It's called 'Storm'. So probably yes, unless they're fans of X-Men.

This^ And I think someone should test them by saying "Why has your boy got a pink ribbon?"

[Dyakovo]

It's called 'Storm'. So probably yes, unless they're fans of X-Men.

This^ And I think someone should test them by saying "Why has your boy got a pink ribbon?"

To which they could simply respond: "Who said Storm is a boy?"

Seriously... Not everyone is that easily stumped.

[SD_Film Artists]

Slightly off-topic, but from a feminist perspective one must question any claims of "genderlessness." Historically an awful lot of on the surface anti-gender rhetoric, including most enlightenment-era rationalist philosophies, was created and espoused by thinkers who then proceeded to define women primarily by their gender -- defying any claims to universality their ideology might have. It's that whole thing with men being considered the "default" gender and etc. A lot of that's gone to some degree by now, but you still see signs like e.g. some males claiming not to have gender identities or disagreeing with the whole concept of gender identity, simply because they've never had to deal with being defined and judged by gender, and females with non-feminine gender identities being comfortable to remain as they are while males with non-masculine gender identities adopt exaggeratedly feminine presentation etc.

Basically, the whole concept of raising a child in a non-gendered manner is really the concept of raising a child without reference to femininity -- either its presence (girls) or its absence (boys). Thus, if I had to guess, I'd venture that the child is biologically female. Could be some false assumptions here though.

Anyway, I see Dumb Ideologies has posted in this thread, so just assume I agree with anything she said, is saying or will say in the near future.

Say what you like about the "absence of femininity" but good luck getting the biologically female child (then teenager) willingly into Games Workshop

[Glorious Freedonia]

The PC folks are the mob and the non PCs are the ones with the balls. Also, real men aren't simpering little PC vegan eunuchs whose closest experience with a woman is going out to Starbucks with hairy legged lesbians.

Wow, do you get a bulk discount when you buy that much condescension? Also, have you ever encountered the real world even tangentially?

It is true that I have a profound dislike for Political Correctness. I find it Orwellian and distasteful. I think that it has a subversive effect on virility and self accountability. I cannot stand everything that it represents. Those who champion it are the sort of people that get me rather grouchy.

[Arkinesia]

I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

Except for the flagrant ignorance of how gender identity is formed.

[Risna]

it seems to me that there are a lot of bisexuals on NS. I'll never understand that.

It seems that there are a lot of bis all over the internet. This is why I hate arguing on here. It's you against ten others who are against your view. It get's annoying, especially bc in real life, it's the other way around and there's more straight people who don't like gayness. Thank God I live in Cali and gay marriage is illegal here. At least there's almost none of this crap IRL.

Is there something the matter? You seem angry. It seems obvious you do not like bisexuals, which (while i don't agree with) is perfectly fine, each man to its own.

[Dyakovo]

I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

Except for the flagrant ignorance of how gender identity is formed.

Explain to us then how gender identity is formed... Then explain why that is the only way it can/should ne formed...

[SD_Film Artists]

This^ And I think someone should test them by saying "Why has your boy got a pink ribbon?"

To which they could simply respond: "Who said Storm is a boy?"

Seriously... Not everyone is that easily stumped.

Friends reference.


..Not that I'd normally watch Friends...

If you were going to make a joke-killing, nitpicky answer as to why that wouldn't work, it should be that they'd probably not give their girl a pink ribbon in the first place. ¬¬