Genderless Child Controversy

[The Soviet Technocracy]

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.

Transgender people disagree.

[Ceannairceach]

It's a nice thought in theory.....but I just don't know. Generally, if a child has a penis, it's male. A vagina, female. The chance of he/she being a transgender is so unlikely, they should just tell the gender. It's so unlikely that it would be better if the real gender would be told and attention would be avoided. If the unlikely happens and it is transgendered, then it's no big deal if he/she was called what he/she was born as in the early stages of life.

Sex and gender aren't interchangeable, mind, and its a good decision to let the child decide on his or her own what he identifies as.

[Lackadaisical2]

I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

^this. Its a decent idea anyway. I doubt the kid will choose the a gender different from his sex though.

[Ceannairceach]

Ha, that was the same four replies in so many seconds.

No, you are all right; I meant to say sex is a physical fact, which is arguably a large determinant in gender perception in Western society.

It is, but what there gender actually is is up to the child.

[Rentusera]

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.

Transgender people disagree.

Goddamnit the train has passed and everyone else's already jumped on it.

[GBeckastania]

Whether or not you tell the child its gender, it will hormonally feel the same way. You don't "decide" if your a boy or a girl, you have a certain biological system which makes you a boy or girl. People who have transgender surgeries and the such do so because they don't feel comfortable in their body, which is something you know at heart, you don't just "decide" it.

That's the thing, though. They're letting the child "decide" on its own, rather than telling it.

I understand the concept of it, the problem is it will know. You have a tendency to know your own body, you don't choose it. And, at some point, whether the parents like it, the kid will learn the difference between a boy and girl.

[Takaram]

Ha, that was the same four replies in so many seconds.

No, you are all right; I meant to say sex is a physical fact, which is arguably a large determinant in gender perception in Western society.

Yes, generally people are cisgendered, meaning that their sex and gender are the same. However, there is a fairly large portion of our population who are not cisgendered, and they often have to deal with the issues of parents telling them what gender they are and fighting that. These parents are trying to avoid that.

[RhynoD]

Whether or not you tell the child its gender, it will hormonally feel the same way. You don't "decide" if your a boy or a girl, you have a certain biological system which makes you a boy or girl. People who have transgender surgeries and the such do so because they don't feel comfortable in their body, which is something you know at heart, you don't just "decide" it.

That's the thing, though. They're letting the child "decide" on its own, rather than telling it.

I think you're missing the point. They're not letting him/her "decide" anything, they're just keeping him/her as an androgynous mess and forbidding him/her from expressing his/her gender.

[Ceannairceach]

I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

^this. Its a decent idea anyway. I doubt the kid will choose the a gender different from his sex though.

Precisely; even if Storm(a beautiful name, I might add) doesn't do anything with the knowledge of his or her choice in the matter, the meaning is good.

[Greater Tezdrian]

Sickening creeps. PC at it's finest.

[Timurid Empire]

This has no effect on me or my family, thus I have no negative or positive opinion of it. I have respect for the parents though, standing for their beliefs. Hard thing to come by these days.

[Takaram]

That's the thing, though. They're letting the child "decide" on its own, rather than telling it.

I understand the concept of it, the problem is it will know. You have a tendency to know your own body, you don't choose it. And, at some point, whether the parents like it, the kid will learn the difference between a boy and girl.

But that doesn't mean that they will act like a boy or girl. If the child doesn't feel like a girl but is biologically a girl, then he will act like a boy.

[Ceannairceach]

That's the thing, though. They're letting the child "decide" on its own, rather than telling it.

I think you're missing the point. They're not letting him/her "decide" anything, they're just keeping him/her as an androgynous mess and forbidding him/her from expressing his/her gender.

Hardly; They are going to, most likely, accept whatever gender he or she identifies as.

[Czardas]

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.

Actually, no. "Sex" is a physical fact. Gender is a state of mind. But one that can be "chosen" so easily.

Technically, sex and gender can be considered both physical facts, or both states of mind, depending on whether one views hormones and neurotransmitters as physical substances or as vague, floaty feelings.

Sex is primarily determined by the hormones produced by one's endocrine and reproductive systems, after all. That's why it's possible to change one's sex: alter the balance of the hormones and the sex changes. It's hardly binary. The only reason we can't induce gender changes is because that deals more with neurotransmitters, which we don't understand nearly as well. Gender can change as well, though; we just don't have any control over it.

EDIT: Wow, that was quick.

welcome to NSG, home of the 501st Genderwank Brigade

[Kralcdivad]

I find it excessive and disgusting. They're using their child as an expression of their political/social views.

[Reame]

So now the deliberate attempt to not impose values on a child constitutes an "aggressive progressive political opinion"?

Ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery...

^^^
This.

I'm largely in favour of "genderless children" (I've previously heard them referred to as "gender-neutral", a term I prefer), with three objections: 1), I don't think society is ready, as the "girl-boy" comment demonstrates; 2), 99.99% of people are happy with the sex they were born into and the gender society assigned them, but it seems Witterick & Stocker's children take to aspects of either gender far more readily than conventionally-raised children which opens them up to ostracism and bullying as I've already mentioned, so I'd say the drawbacks of this outweigh the benefits; 3) Jazz, Kio and Storm, really? Oh dear.

[Ceannairceach]

Sickening creeps. PC at it's finest.

How is it sickening? They want the child to be happy, and to do this, they are going to let it decide if its a boy or a girl.

[Takaram]

That's the thing, though. They're letting the child "decide" on its own, rather than telling it.

I think you're missing the point. They're not letting him/her "decide" anything, they're just keeping him/her as an androgynous mess and forbidding him/her from expressing his/her gender.

No, they are allowing the child to decide it's own gender without pressure. They aren't telling the child not to be a boy or girl, they're just telling everyone else that they won't be treating Storm like it's sex if it's gender isn't the same.

[Trotskylvania]

I think people put too much stock in biological essentialism.

I mean, when I was little, I wore pink all the time. The ultrasound misidentified me, so it was kind of a necessity. And hey, I turned out alright...

Don't analyze that too closely...

[RhynoD]

I think you're missing the point. They're not letting him/her "decide" anything, they're just keeping him/her as an androgynous mess and forbidding him/her from expressing his/her gender.

Hardly; They are going to, most likely, accept whatever gender he or she identifies as.

In which case they will admit to the gender and the child will in no way be "genderless".

[Reame]

It seems like this is an incredibly contentious issue, I think we should have a poll on what people think.

[Rentusera]

3) Jazz, Kio and Storm, really? Oh dear.

What kind of sadistic parent would name her son Jazz? Might as well have named him Zeppo.

[Tergnitz]

I understand the concept of it, the problem is it will know. You have a tendency to know your own body, you don't choose it. And, at some point, whether the parents like it, the kid will learn the difference between a boy and girl.

But that doesn't mean that they will act like a boy or girl. If the child doesn't feel like a girl but is biologically a girl, then he will act like a boy.

What’s so hideously 'evil' about acting like a boy or girl? Gender identification adds a base rock to the creation of personal identity.

[Ceannairceach]

Hardly; They are going to, most likely, accept whatever gender he or she identifies as.

In which case they will admit to the gender and the child will in no way be "genderless".

Yes. And? Point being?

[Takaram]

Hardly; They are going to, most likely, accept whatever gender he or she identifies as.

In which case they will admit to the gender and the child will in no way be "genderless".

Exactly. The thing that they are doing is not forcing a gender on the child, but rather allowing the child's own gender to emerge.