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Genderless Child Controversy

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you agree that a child's parents should not allow it to conform to traditional gender roles?

Yes - Traditional gender roles are a plague on our society and this is a step in the 'right' direction.
52
15%
Maybe - It allows the child to choose their path in life, but it could end up backfiring badly.
128
38%
No - Sex is the main determinant of gender and what these parents are doing is wrong.
158
47%
 
Total votes : 338

User avatar
Tergnitz
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Founded: Nov 06, 2009
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Genderless Child Controversy

Postby Tergnitz » Wed May 25, 2011 6:01 pm

A Canadian couple has decided to keep the sex of their child secret, in an attempt to raise a genderless child.

    IT IS usually the first thing that proud parents reveal to the world about their new offspring. But a Canadian couple has sparked controversy by deciding to keep the sex of their baby secret as part of an attempt to raise a "genderless child".
    Kathy Witterick, 38, and David Stocker, 39, who live in Toronto, believe that a child's sex should not determine his or her place in the world.

    When Storm was born four months ago, they sent an e-mail to friends and family reading: "We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now - a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm's lifetime (a more progressive place?)"

    There is nothing physiologically ambiguous about Storm's sex. However, whether he or she is a girl or a boy is known only to the couple's sons, Jazz, 5, and Kio, 2, a close family friend and the two midwives who helped to deliver the baby.

    The parents say that it will be up to Storm to decide whether he or she decides to live as a boy or girl but their plan has led to them being labelled the "world's most PC parents".

    They say that they are striking a blow against the gender stereotypes that order society, which they believe begin as soon as parents pick out blue or pink romper suits. "When the baby comes out, even the people who love you the most and know you so intimately, the first question they ask is: 'Is it a girl or a boy?'," Ms Witterick, a housewife, said. Mr Stocker, a teacher, told The Toronto Star: "If you really want to get to know someone, you don't ask what's between their legs."

    Storm's grandparents have been supportive, but some friends have accused the couple of imposing their values on a newborn.

    Others have criticised Storm's parents for setting up their child for a life of bullying and notoriety. "These parents are turning their children into a bizarre lab experiment," one reader wrote to The Toronto Star.

    "For most people, gender is bedrock. When two parents challenge that bedrock, as Storm's parents have, it makes everyone anxious," said Diane Ehrensaft, a California-based psychologist and a specialist on gender roles.

    The couple, who spent a recent holiday meeting Zapatista revolutionaries in the mountains of Mexico, are nothing if not aggressively progressive.

    They believe in "unschooling"; a variation of home schooling in which a child is allowed to decide what he or she learns. The entire family sleeps on two mattresses pushed together on the floor and their young sons decide when to cut their hair and which clothes to wear each day.

    Jazz recently donned a pink dress, which he said he loved because it "really poofs out at the bottom" and "feels so nice". He wears his hair long and his favourite colour is pink. Kio prefers purple. Most strangers assume that the boys are girls - but Jazz was recently shunned at a playground by two girls who said that they did not want to play with the "girl-boy".

    The debate on the long-term effects of Storm's unconventional start in life are likely to rage on. For now, however, the parents have declined to do any more interviews.

    "We don't want [our children] to feel like exotic bugs. When consulted, they said 'no thanks' to more media attention," Ms Witterick said

Source: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/canada-to-kathy-and-david-a-bouncing-baby-something/story-e6frg6so-1226062578752

Poor kids, they will never live a normal life now thanks to the fact that their parents have imposed their aggressive progressive political opinion on them at birth. Left-wing political correctness at its best...
Last edited by Tergnitz on Wed May 25, 2011 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ceannairceach
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Founded: Sep 05, 2009
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Postby Ceannairceach » Wed May 25, 2011 6:05 pm

I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

@}-;-'---

"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most..." -Mark Twain

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The Soviet Technocracy
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Founded: Dec 19, 2010
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Postby The Soviet Technocracy » Wed May 25, 2011 6:05 pm

This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.
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Trollgaard
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Trollgaard » Wed May 25, 2011 6:06 pm

The Soviet Technocracy wrote:This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.


Really? When/where did that happen?

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Ceannairceach
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Founded: Sep 05, 2009
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Postby Ceannairceach » Wed May 25, 2011 6:08 pm

The Soviet Technocracy wrote:This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.

That was forced, and the man was well into adulthood by the time he killed himself.

@}-;-'---

"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most..." -Mark Twain

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Takaram
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Founded: Feb 23, 2009
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Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:09 pm

The Soviet Technocracy wrote:This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.


Never heard of that one. I remember when a kid killed himself for having a gender (and sex) he didn't identify with imposed on him, but never over this.

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Ceannairceach
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Postby Ceannairceach » Wed May 25, 2011 6:09 pm

Trollgaard wrote:
The Soviet Technocracy wrote:This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.


Really? When/where did that happen?

David Reimer. His penis was destroyed during circumcision, and in order to raise him normally, the parents had him sexually reassigned at a horribly young age. Note, this case has nothing to do with the issue.
Last edited by Ceannairceach on Wed May 25, 2011 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@}-;-'---

"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most..." -Mark Twain

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RhynoD
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Founded: Nov 11, 2004
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Postby RhynoD » Wed May 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Trollgaard wrote:
The Soviet Technocracy wrote:This should be classified as child abuse.

Last time this happened, the kid killed himself due to it.


Really? When/where did that happen?

Law and Order: SVU.
So a horse walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Hey, why the long face?"
Former top poster and First President of the Social Spam Alliance.
Sarkhaan wrote:This. And just about everything else RhynoD said.

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RhynoD
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Postby RhynoD » Wed May 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Ceannairceach wrote:I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.
So a horse walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Hey, why the long face?"
Former top poster and First President of the Social Spam Alliance.
Sarkhaan wrote:This. And just about everything else RhynoD said.

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Takaram
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Founded: Feb 23, 2009
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Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:11 pm

Ceannairceach wrote:
Trollgaard wrote:
Really? When/where did that happen?

David Reimer. His penis was destroyed during circumcision, and in order to raise him normally, the parents had him sexually reassigned at a horribly young age.


That's different from this. In that situation, his parents and that Dr. Money forced a gender role he didn't identify with as part of a theory on the development of gender. In this case, the parents are allowing the child to identify his/herself.

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Takaram
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Founded: Feb 23, 2009
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Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:11 pm

RhynoD wrote:
Trollgaard wrote:
Really? When/where did that happen?

Law and Order: SVU.


That was based on an actual event, like many SVU episodes.

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Trotskylvania
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Posts: 17217
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Trotskylvania » Wed May 25, 2011 6:11 pm

Tergnitz wrote:
A Canadian couple has decided to keep the sex of their child secret, in an attempt to raise a genderless child.

    IT IS usually the first thing that proud parents reveal to the world about their new offspring. But a Canadian couple has sparked controversy by deciding to keep the sex of their baby secret as part of an attempt to raise a "genderless child".
    Kathy Witterick, 38, and David Stocker, 39, who live in Toronto, believe that a child's sex should not determine his or her place in the world.

    When Storm was born four months ago, they sent an e-mail to friends and family reading: "We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now - a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm's lifetime (a more progressive place?)"

    There is nothing physiologically ambiguous about Storm's sex. However, whether he or she is a girl or a boy is known only to the couple's sons, Jazz, 5, and Kio, 2, a close family friend and the two midwives who helped to deliver the baby.

    The parents say that it will be up to Storm to decide whether he or she decides to live as a boy or girl but their plan has led to them being labelled the "world's most PC parents".

    They say that they are striking a blow against the gender stereotypes that order society, which they believe begin as soon as parents pick out blue or pink romper suits. "When the baby comes out, even the people who love you the most and know you so intimately, the first question they ask is: 'Is it a girl or a boy?'," Ms Witterick, a housewife, said. Mr Stocker, a teacher, told The Toronto Star: "If you really want to get to know someone, you don't ask what's between their legs."

    Storm's grandparents have been supportive, but some friends have accused the couple of imposing their values on a newborn.

    Others have criticised Storm's parents for setting up their child for a life of bullying and notoriety. "These parents are turning their children into a bizarre lab experiment," one reader wrote to The Toronto Star.

    "For most people, gender is bedrock. When two parents challenge that bedrock, as Storm's parents have, it makes everyone anxious," said Diane Ehrensaft, a California-based psychologist and a specialist on gender roles.

    The couple, who spent a recent holiday meeting Zapatista revolutionaries in the mountains of Mexico, are nothing if not aggressively progressive.

    They believe in "unschooling"; a variation of home schooling in which a child is allowed to decide what he or she learns. The entire family sleeps on two mattresses pushed together on the floor and their young sons decide when to cut their hair and which clothes to wear each day.

    Jazz recently donned a pink dress, which he said he loved because it "really poofs out at the bottom" and "feels so nice". He wears his hair long and his favourite colour is pink. Kio prefers purple. Most strangers assume that the boys are girls - but Jazz was recently shunned at a playground by two girls who said that they did not want to play with the "girl-boy".

    The debate on the long-term effects of Storm's unconventional start in life are likely to rage on. For now, however, the parents have declined to do any more interviews.

    "We don't want [our children] to feel like exotic bugs. When consulted, they said 'no thanks' to more media attention," Ms Witterick said

Source: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/canada-to-kathy-and-david-a-bouncing-baby-something/story-e6frg6so-1226062578752

Poor kids, they will never live a normal life now thanks to the fact that their parents have imposed their aggressive progressive political opinion on them at birth. Left-wing political correctness at its best...

So now the deliberate attempt to not impose values on a child constitutes an "aggressive progressive political opinion"?

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Tergnitz
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Founded: Nov 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tergnitz » Wed May 25, 2011 6:12 pm

RhynoD wrote:
Ceannairceach wrote:I like it, actually. Allow the child to decide if he or she identifies with whatever gender they choose. A rather nice option.

Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.

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Ceannairceach
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Founded: Sep 05, 2009
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Postby Ceannairceach » Wed May 25, 2011 6:13 pm

Tergnitz wrote:
RhynoD wrote:Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.

Sex is a physical feature; Gender is not.

@}-;-'---

"But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most..." -Mark Twain

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Takaram
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Founded: Feb 23, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:13 pm

Tergnitz wrote:
RhynoD wrote:Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.


False. Sex is a physical fact. Gender is all in the mind.

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Frenequesta
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Founded: Oct 22, 2010
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Frenequesta » Wed May 25, 2011 6:13 pm

Tergnitz wrote:
RhynoD wrote:Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.


No, you're thinking of sex.
I’m mostly here for... something to do, I suppose.

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RhynoD
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Founded: Nov 11, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby RhynoD » Wed May 25, 2011 6:14 pm

Tergnitz wrote:
RhynoD wrote:Unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Exactly, gender is not a 'state of mind' is a physical fact.

Actually, no. "Sex" is a physical fact. Gender is a state of mind. But one that can be "chosen" so easily.

EDIT: Wow, that was quick.
Last edited by RhynoD on Wed May 25, 2011 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So a horse walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Hey, why the long face?"
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Sarkhaan wrote:This. And just about everything else RhynoD said.

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Takaram
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Founded: Feb 23, 2009
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Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:14 pm

4 posts in a row saying the exact same thing correcting someone on the difference between gender and sex. NSG at its finest.

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Kari-Kazzir
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Posts: 82
Founded: Apr 16, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Kari-Kazzir » Wed May 25, 2011 6:15 pm

I totally understand the point being made.
Buut... they put their child on display.
It's contradicting. That's the real sick part.
Let's raise our child genderless, and make sure
the whole world knows that THIS CHILD, RIGHT HERE
is either a boy or a girl. AND YOU'RE NOT TO KNOW.
Opening up a can of worms.

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Beldonia
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Posts: 3827
Founded: Jan 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Beldonia » Wed May 25, 2011 6:15 pm

It's a nice thought in theory.....but I just don't know. Generally, if a child has a penis, it's male. A vagina, female. The chance of he/she being a transgender is so unlikely, they should just tell the gender. It's so unlikely that it would be better if the real gender would be told and attention would be avoided. If the unlikely happens and it is transgendered, then it's no big deal if he/she was called what he/she was born as in the early stages of life.

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GBeckastania
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Founded: Sep 05, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby GBeckastania » Wed May 25, 2011 6:15 pm

Whether or not you tell the child its gender, it will hormonally feel the same way. You don't "decide" if your a boy or a girl, you have a certain biological system which makes you a boy or girl. People who have transgender surgeries and the such do so because they don't feel comfortable in their body, which is something you know at heart, you don't just "decide" it.
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Takaram
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Founded: Feb 23, 2009
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Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:15 pm

Kari-Kazzir wrote:I totally understand the point being made.
Buut... they put their child on display.
It's contradicting. That's the real sick part.
Let's raise our child genderless, and make sure
the whole world knows that THIS CHILD, RIGHT HERE
is either a boy or a girl. AND YOU'RE NOT TO KNOW.
Opening up a can of worms.


They want everyone to see HOW OPEN MINDED THEY ARE! SEE!
Yeah, I have no issue with them raising the kid like this, but do you really have to make a show out of it?

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RhynoD
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Founded: Nov 11, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby RhynoD » Wed May 25, 2011 6:16 pm

Takaram wrote:
RhynoD wrote:Law and Order: SVU.


That was based on an actual event, like many SVU episodes.

Never said it wasn't.
So a horse walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Hey, why the long face?"
Former top poster and First President of the Social Spam Alliance.
Sarkhaan wrote:This. And just about everything else RhynoD said.

User avatar
Takaram
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Posts: 8973
Founded: Feb 23, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Takaram » Wed May 25, 2011 6:16 pm

GBeckastania wrote:Whether or not you tell the child its gender, it will hormonally feel the same way. You don't "decide" if your a boy or a girl, you have a certain biological system which makes you a boy or girl. People who have transgender surgeries and the such do so because they don't feel comfortable in their body, which is something you know at heart, you don't just "decide" it.


That's the thing, though. They're letting the child "decide" on its own, rather than telling it.

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Tergnitz
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Posts: 4149
Founded: Nov 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tergnitz » Wed May 25, 2011 6:17 pm

Ha, that was the same four replies in so many seconds.

No, you are all right; I meant to say sex is a physical fact, which is arguably a large determinant in gender perception in Western society.

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