This woman thinks all men support rape

[The Congregationists]

Since you asked NB .. but do me a favor here and let's keep this civilized here, okay? You might not like the genitals I have, but frankly I'm no less human than you, and however hard this may be to believe, I do abhor the violence and evil inflicted on women by men. I'll hide the horns and glowing red eyes for a while. A human heart pounds in my chest while a penis hangs beneath my legs. The two are not mutually exclusive. So moving right along...

Again, it is unquestionably shitty when someone is falsely accused of a crime they didn't commit. Duh. It is, however, utterly false to claim that being accused of a crime you didn't commit "ruins lives" to anything approaching the degree to which BEING FUCKING RAPED ruins lives. Can it, in some cases, ruin lives? Of course. Is it a tragedy when it does? Again, of course. Is it abso-fucking-lutely insane to argue that, by default, we should apparently all assume that anyone who claims to be raped is lying, lest we ruin someone's life (because, of course, being raped and not being believed couldn't possibly ruin anyone's life - or at least not anyone who matters, i.e. someone with a penis)? Again, of course. I am disgusted with men who feel the desperate need to hijack the issue of rape - something which directly affects between 16 and 25% of women (and roughly 3% of men) - to complain about the issue of false reports of rape, something which unquestionably affects a far, far, far smaller number of people, and generally to a far, far, far lesser degree. This thread is about how rape is or is not supported, not about false rape accusations - and yet, like nearly every rape thread, certain guys have to MAKE it about that, and have the brain-breaking gall to argue that they are in no way trivializing rape while explicitly insisting that it is less important and worthy of discussion than an issue that affects far fewer people to a far lesser degree.

I'm going to say that I agree with 95% of this. Give or take. Where I disagree is that I don't see concern over false accusations of rape as "trivializing" the real thing or that the real thing is "less important and worthy of discussion" simply because the issue of false accusations is raised. Now given that the real thing happens more often than false accusations, and that the real thing causes more damage than false accusations when it happens, I do not see that rape is "less important and worthy of discussion" despite the fact that I also consider willfully accusing someone of rape falsely to be a terrible, evil thing. In other words, I don't feel that I have to choose which of the two I have to object to. I deplore both. Would more rapists be in jail, and would they be there longer, than those who falsely accuse of rape? Yes. But this is a measure of statistical occurance, not a matter of which team is better. Hope that clears things.

[Geniasis]

Since you asked NB .. but do me a favor here and let's keep this civilized here, okay? You might not like the genitals I have, but frankly I'm no less human than you, and however hard this may be to believe, I do abhor the violence and evil inflicted on women by men.

Are we really subscribing to the narrative that TNB is some kind of sapient Vagina Denta-golem that has Greater Misandry as a class feature?

[The Strick Lands]

I'm pro rape because I'm anti-abortion?
What in God's green Earth is she smoking.

He promotes religious or philosophical views in which a woman’s physical/psychological/emotional/sexual well-being is subordinated to a man’s.

so I'm also pro rape because I believe generally men are stronger than women?

[The Congregationists]

Since you asked NB .. but do me a favor here and let's keep this civilized here, okay? You might not like the genitals I have, but frankly I'm no less human than you, and however hard this may be to believe, I do abhor the violence and evil inflicted on women by men.

Are we really subscribing to the narrative that TNB is some kind of sapient Vagina Denta-golem that has Greater Misandry as a class feature?

Frankly undecided.

[Tahar Joblis]

I am disgusted with men who feel the desperate need to hijack the issue of rape - something which directly affects between 16 and 25% of women (and roughly 3% of men) - to complain about the issue of false reports of rape

You just don't see the connection of how that topic came up?

Well, then, I'll explain. Here's how it works:

1.) Crazy person and/or troll posts an insane list on their blog.
2.) This is brought to NSG's attention.
3.) You defend this by saying that we're in a culture that condones rape.
4.) I pointed out that even a false accusation of rape can ruin someone's life... and this, logically speaking, contradicts your claim that our culture actually condones rape.
5.) You respond by trying to trivialize false accusations' frequency and impact, because you recognize this is a serious problem for your argument.

It came up, in other words, because data about false accusations presents facts that contradict the argument you were making.

It is very difficult to argue that we don't take rape seriously in light of the fact that accused rapists are stigmatized. It is very difficult to argue that rape victims are being faced with unjustified skepticism when the hypothesis of a false accusation has to be taken seriously by the court system. DNA evidence routinely clears a significant minority of "primary suspects" in sexual assault cases in which DNA evidence is collected; a handful of limited studies have found that in some environments at least, a significant minority of rape reports are followed by recantation.

You don't get the big picture. The big picture is that women make false accusations of rape because of "rape culture." The problems that lead to women getting raped are the same ones that lead to women who haven't been raped claiming to have been raped, and those issues are ones that the blog linked to in the OP busily reinforces. Men as actors; women as passive producers of sex that is provided to men. That the blogger couches her support for a passive femininity, erotic desire the feature of active masculinity, etc in misandrist terms does not mean they aren't hurting women.

[Jagalonia]

This list, is not only entirely fallacious, but it is also in bad taste.

Does she even realize how sexist she is?

[Geniasis]

But how is that compatible with the fact that women are often treated as though they have some blame for the rape? That it was due to "dressing like a slut" or something similar?

[The Norwegian Blue]

I'm not sure who the "your" is here. It's sure as hell not me, since I not only never said anything even vaguely resembling that, but I'd think you'd have interacted with me enough by now to recognize that "likes driving people to suicide" is not a description likely to apply to me. I don't see anyone else who's argued anything like that, either.

What I ACTUALLY said was that I tend to assume that people who claim to have been raped are probably not lying - because they're probably not - and that if I have evidence to suggest that someone is a rapist, I'm going to treat them like someone who might be a rapist. I'm pretty sure I never specified how I treat possible rapists, but a more logical (and accurate) conclusion than "I try to KILL THEM ALL!" might be "I try to AVOID BEING ALONE WITH THEM!" and "I try not to HANG OUT WITH THEM SOCIALLY!" Oh, the horror. I mean, not that I'm not awesome, but I don't think not getting to have dinner with me quite constitutes life-ruination.

Well that's what I get for assuming how you treat people you view as possible rapists. So, if basically all you do is avoid being alone with them, that's a reasonable precaution one supposes.

I guess I was confused by the acquitted previously suspected rapists "should have their lives ruined" comment. My apologies.

Also, that sentence was really hard to write.

In the future, I will avoid being with you and Neo Art alone, although I did like the my little pony outfits. The guy dressed as a green Darth Vader was weird, though.

I can at least see how that line, taken alone, could be misread - I feel like in context I was pretty clear, but for total clarity:

I think rapists should have their lives ruined.

Most people who are accused of rape are rapists.

Therefore, most people who are accused of rape should have their lives ruined.

That simple syllogism was all that sentence was intended to convey - and, again, I feel like it was pretty clear in context, but I was irritated enough by the time I wrote that post that it is perhaps only 90% clear, so let's hope this brings it up to 100%. I do not seek to ruin anyone's life solely on the basis of an allegation. I seek to avoid rapists and punish rapists, and if I believe someone to be a rapist, I will therefore avoid them and advocate for their punishment. Unlike, it seems, some people here, my standards for "belief that someone is a rapist" don't require seventeen separate pieces of DNA evidence, four reliable male witnesses, a video recording of the rape in progress, a conviction, and a signed confession from the rapist saying, "YES, I AM A RAPIST, SO IT'S OKAY TO TREAT ME LIKE ONE NOW." They simply require reasonably persuasive evidence, of which simple testimony can frequently be one example. My standards for "belief that someone should be convicted of rape" are significantly higher, because that's a very different thing. (Similarly, I think the OJ jury was right to find him not guilty. I also think he very probably committed murder, and would treat him accordingly - as, I suspect, would most people here.)

[The Strick Lands]

I'm pro rape because I'm anti-abortion?
What in God's green Earth is she smoking.

He promotes religious or philosophical views in which a woman’s physical/psychological/emotional/sexual well-being is subordinated to a man’s.

so I'm also pro rape because I believe generally men are stronger than women?

He promotes the idea that women as a class are happier or more fulfilled if they have children, or that they “should” have children.

again another 1

[Geniasis]

Well that's what I get for assuming how you treat people you view as possible rapists. So, if basically all you do is avoid being alone with them, that's a reasonable precaution one supposes.

I guess I was confused by the acquitted previously suspected rapists "should have their lives ruined" comment. My apologies.

Also, that sentence was really hard to write.

In the future, I will avoid being with you and Neo Art alone, although I did like the my little pony outfits. The guy dressed as a green Darth Vader was weird, though.

I can at least see how that line, taken alone, could be misread - I feel like in context I was pretty clear, but for total clarity:

I think rapists should have their lives ruined.

Most people who are accused of rape are rapists.

Therefore, most people who are accused of rape should have their lives ruined.

That simple syllogism was all that sentence was intended to convey - and, again, I feel like it was pretty clear in context, but I was irritated enough by the time I wrote that post that it is perhaps only 90% clear, so let's hope this brings it up to 100%. I do not seek to ruin anyone's life solely on the basis of an allegation. I seek to avoid rapists and punish rapists, and if I believe someone to be a rapist, I will therefore avoid them and advocate for their punishment. Unlike, it seems, some people here, my standards for "belief that someone is a rapist" don't require seventeen separate pieces of DNA evidence, four reliable male witnesses, a video recording of the rape in progress, a conviction, and a signed confession from the rapist saying, "YES, I AM A RAPIST, SO IT'S OKAY TO TREAT ME LIKE ONE NOW." They simply require reasonably persuasive evidence, of which simple testimony can frequently be one example. My standards for "belief that someone should be convicted of rape" are significantly higher, because that's a very different thing. (Similarly, I think the OJ jury was right to find him not guilty. I also think he very probably committed murder, and would treat him accordingly - as, I suspect, would most people here.)

A lot of people here are just reacting reflexively to that, out of some fear that for whatever reason there's a chance that they may be accused by someone falsely, and that if word-of-mouth is all it takes to be convicted in the court of public opinion, then there is no recourse for them. Not that I would compare it to rape, but I can't help but note the element of a loss of power and control there.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

I'm pro rape because I'm anti-abortion?
What in God's green Earth is she smoking.

He promotes religious or philosophical views in which a woman’s physical/psychological/emotional/sexual well-being is subordinated to a man’s.

so I'm also pro rape because I believe generally men are stronger than women?

You're sure as hell contributing to the environment in which rapists feel what they do "isnt so bad" because they should be "subordinate" to men. Which is exactly what she is fucking saying, though the kind of spin she's trying to put on it is a bit concerning because it gives people like you an excuse to dismiss any references to this exact subject as "sexism."

[The Strick Lands]

I'm pro rape because I'm anti-abortion?
What in God's green Earth is she smoking.

He promotes religious or philosophical views in which a woman’s physical/psychological/emotional/sexual well-being is subordinated to a man’s.

so I'm also pro rape because I believe generally men are stronger than women?

You're sure as hell contributing to the environment in which rapists feel what they do "isnt so bad" because they should be "subordinate" to men. Which is exactly what she is fucking saying, though the kind of spin she's trying to put on it is a bit concerning because it gives people like you an excuse to dismiss any references to this exact subject as "sexism."

dude it's pretty obvious from a scientific standpoint
Men generally are stronger than women
its called testosterone

thats how i dismiss it from being sexism

[The Norwegian Blue]

Since you asked NB .. but do me a favor here and let's keep this civilized here, okay? You might not like the genitals I have, but frankly I'm no less human than you, and however hard this may be to believe, I do abhor the violence and evil inflicted on women by men. I'll hide the horns and glowing red eyes for a while. A human heart pounds in my chest while a penis hangs beneath my legs. The two are not mutually exclusive. So moving right along...

Please find me ANYWHERE, in the entire history of NSG, where I have said that I think men are less human than me, lack human hearts, or anything even faintly resembling this. (Also, I don't know about your personal genitalia and don't really want to, but my boyfriend is likely to be terribly surprised to hear that I now hate penises.)

Seriously. Read my freaking posts instead of randomly making things up. Since the VERY FIRST POST I made in this thread, I have repeatedly stated that it's asinine to act as if men are solely at fault for things perpetuated by society as a whole. Attacking strawmen may be fun, but I asked you to try addressing my posts, which necessarily entails looking at things I actually said rather than weird shit you pulled out of your ass.

Again, it is unquestionably shitty when someone is falsely accused of a crime they didn't commit. Duh. It is, however, utterly false to claim that being accused of a crime you didn't commit "ruins lives" to anything approaching the degree to which BEING FUCKING RAPED ruins lives. Can it, in some cases, ruin lives? Of course. Is it a tragedy when it does? Again, of course. Is it abso-fucking-lutely insane to argue that, by default, we should apparently all assume that anyone who claims to be raped is lying, lest we ruin someone's life (because, of course, being raped and not being believed couldn't possibly ruin anyone's life - or at least not anyone who matters, i.e. someone with a penis)? Again, of course. I am disgusted with men who feel the desperate need to hijack the issue of rape - something which directly affects between 16 and 25% of women (and roughly 3% of men) - to complain about the issue of false reports of rape, something which unquestionably affects a far, far, far smaller number of people, and generally to a far, far, far lesser degree. This thread is about how rape is or is not supported, not about false rape accusations - and yet, like nearly every rape thread, certain guys have to MAKE it about that, and have the brain-breaking gall to argue that they are in no way trivializing rape while explicitly insisting that it is less important and worthy of discussion than an issue that affects far fewer people to a far lesser degree.

I'm going to say that I agree with 95% of this. Give or take. Where I disagree is that I don't see concern over false accusations of rape as "trivializing" the real thing or that the real thing is "less important and worthy of discussion" simply because the issue of false accusations is raised. Now given that the real thing happens more often than false accusations, and that the real thing causes more damage than false accusations when it happens, I do not see that rape is "less important and worthy of discussion" despite the fact that I also consider willfully accusing someone of rape falsely to be a terrible, evil thing. In other words, I don't feel that I have to choose which of the two I have to object to. I deplore both. Would more rapists be in jail, and would they be there longer, than those who falsely accuse of rape? Yes. But this is a measure of statistical occurance, not a matter of which team is better. Hope that clears things.

You don't have to choose. I can object to both murder and burglary. But if every time a discussion of murder took place, I ran in shouting, "BUT WHY AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT BURGLARY? I WANNA TALK ABOUT BURGLARY! MURDER VICTIMS CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PAIN OF BURGLARY! BURGLARY BURGLARY BURGLARY!" perhaps you can see how that would suggest that I don't take murder particularly seriously.

Condemn false accusations to your heart's content - they deserve condemnation, certainly. But I'm not sure why they deserve it in a thread about rape.

[Tahar Joblis]

Generally speaking, any sentence on the subject of rape that begins with "You're a woman, so you've probably never had to think about..." is going to be a profoundly stupid thing to say.

In general, you're not going to hear such sentences. There is this mythos floating about, that only women have any idea what they're talking about when it comes to rape.

The grain of truth is that most women are to a large degree forced to think about rape, while most men are not.

Plenty of women out there have thought about the consequences that rumors of sexual misconduct have on someone's life and tried to put themselves in those shoes, exploring that measure of empathy, but TNB has not been showing signs of being such a woman.

[Geniasis]

Generally speaking, any sentence on the subject of rape that begins with "You're a woman, so you've probably never had to think about..." is going to be a profoundly stupid thing to say.

In general, you're not going to hear such sentences. There is this mythos floating about, that only women have any idea what they're talking about when it comes to rape.

The grain of truth is that most women are to a large degree forced to think about rape, while most men are not.

Plenty of women out there have thought about the consequences that rumors of sexual misconduct have on someone's life and tried to put themselves in those shoes, exploring that measure of empathy, but TNB has not been showing signs of being such a woman.

Careful where you swing that sword. It might cut more than one way.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

I disagree with a number of TNB's rationales, but using strawmen to rebut her arguments is not going to win anything. This is why this argument has been going around and around in circles for however many pages.

[Tahar Joblis]

In general, you're not going to hear such sentences. There is this mythos floating about, that only women have any idea what they're talking about when it comes to rape.

The grain of truth is that most women are to a large degree forced to think about rape, while most men are not.

Plenty of women out there have thought about the consequences that rumors of sexual misconduct have on someone's life and tried to put themselves in those shoes, exploring that measure of empathy, but TNB has not been showing signs of being such a woman.

Careful where you swing that sword. It might cut more than one way.

Given I've already swung it at some men failing to put themselves in rape victims' shoes, some women failing to put themselves in the "accused sex offender" shoes, and have a history of swinging it back and forth in other places, it had better have at least two edges to its blade or I'll fail to make my point.

[ZombieRothbard]

Haha damn, I am a prolific rapist!

[The Strick Lands]

Given that some of her items listed were legit, it was pretty disappointing to see her go well off into crazyville.

The only stripclub I've been to I was dragged to by a girl... so, does that means I'm a rape supporter, or that both of us are, or that just she is?

Good luck trying to find a man who doesn't watch porn. Seriously.

found one

my brother-in-law (sisters husband)

found one

my brother

found one

me

many more
too many to list

[Hydesland]

Good luck trying to find a man who doesn't watch porn. Seriously.

found one

my brother-in-law (sisters husband)

found one

my brother

found one

me

many more
too many to list

I generally don't watch porn, although I have. But it's not because I'm any sort of prude. I really don't see the need for it, when I really need to... *ahem*, I find I can do it without the need to watch porn.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Again, it is unquestionably shitty when someone is falsely accused of a crime they didn't commit. Duh. It is, however, utterly false to claim that being accused of a crime you didn't commit "ruins lives" to anything approaching the degree to which BEING FUCKING RAPED ruins lives.

All of these things are variable, not constant. Sometimes a false rape accusation can be shrugged off (it helps if you're wealthy with powerful friends), other times it can isolate and separate you from your family, friends and your career, forever, and that is literally one of my biggest fears I can think of. It can ruin it even more if you're falsely sentenced. That a false accusation can and has led people to suicide or self harm means that I don't agree that the seriousness can never 'even approach' the seriousness of actual rape. Sometimes people are affected by things differently, some people emotionally react to things differently. To some mentally handicapped people even things we view as very innocuous can provoke in them a reaction of suicidal depression. You simply cannot generalise about these things and pretend that there is a universal hierarchy of harm, especially when the harm we're talking about is largely psychological. It always depends on the context and the person.

Of course it does. Which is why I used the phrase "ruins lives" and not "could conceivably ruin any given person's life." Hundreds of millions of people have been raped. I'm not arguing that every single one of them is worse off than every single person who has been falsely accused of a crime - some rape survivors do an amazing job of recovering from the trauma quickly and effectively, and some people's lives might well be ruined by a false accusation even of something as comparatively trivial as shoplifting. I'm arguing that hundreds of millions of people have been raped, and trying to pretend that that is in any way an equal problem to that of false accusations would trivialize rape even if false accusations really WERE generally just as bad as being raped (which they're not, realistically speaking, but that at least isn't as obvious and indisputable as pointing out that something which affects up to 25% of all women is a bigger problem than something which affects a tiny minority of men).

we should apparently all assume that anyone who claims to be raped is lying, lest we ruin someone's life (because, of course, being raped and not being believed couldn't possibly ruin anyone's life - or at least not anyone who matters, i.e. someone with a penis)?

What I believe is that if we have absolutely no information other than the fact one person accused another, you shouldn't assume anything.

Sure, but when does it happen that that is actually the limit of your information? I'll happily accept that I don't assume anything when I hear "some complete stranger about which you know nothing accused another complete stranger about which you know nothing of some act about which you know nothing." I will NOT accept that, if my friend tells me a guy raped her, I should hold no opinions on the matter despite knowing her to be honest and knowing him to have a history of violence against women, because that's stupid. I form opinions based on the information I have, like everyone else in the world, and if the evidence suggests that someone committed rape, then I'm probably going to believe they committed rape.

certain guys have to MAKE it about that, and have the brain-breaking gall to argue that they are in no way trivializing rape while explicitly insisting that it is less important and worthy of discussion than an issue that affects far fewer people to a far lesser degree.

False rape accusations wasn't raised in an attempt to trivialise real rape, you can't go around suggesting that with such nonchalance, seriously. That is simply something I would find shockingly offensive if I were TJ. From what I read of the conversation, false rapes were raised only to demonstrate that the fact that peoples lives have been ruined due to the reaction of society of a mere allegation of rape (even when false) provides some evidence that society does indeed take rape seriously and does not regard the act as trivial or of little harm.

TJ whined repeatedly at me about how I didn't remember everything he said in a previous conversation about rape. Since he set that as the standard, I can only assume he abides by his own standards and remembers things I've said multiple times on NSG in conversations about rape, and that he knew EXACTLY how offensive it was to say that to me of all people. But even if he didn't, Geniasis nailed why that post of his was really, really, really, REALLY dumb and over the line.

[The Congregationists]

found one

my brother-in-law (sisters husband)

found one

my brother

found one

me

many more
too many to list

I generally don't watch porn, although I have. But it's not because I'm any sort of prude. I really don't see the need for it, when I really need to... *ahem*, I find I can do it without the need to watch porn.

Ditto that. I've seen porn, think it's the biggest waste of time on the planet. Watching grass grow is fun in comparison.

[Hydesland]

I'm arguing that hundreds of millions of people have been raped, and trying to pretend that that is in any way an equal problem to that of false accusations would trivialize rape even if false accusations really WERE generally just as bad as being raped

Okay, that's fine but I definitely did not get that from what you were saying originally, and neither did others clearly, so it's not a stretch for me to say that you're not being sufficiently clear that this is what you're saying. And if it is what you're saying it seems largely irrelevant to anything TJ was originally arguing.

I will NOT accept that, if my friend tells me a guy raped her, I should hold no opinions on the matter despite knowing her to be honest and knowing him to have a history of violence against women, because that's stupid.

I'm not saying that, this is consistent with what I'm saying. You being friends with the person and the alleged rapist gives you unique information, such as how compelling it is that your friend raped someone, or how compelling it is your friend is truthful about being raped.

[Tahar Joblis]

I can at least see how that line, taken alone, could be misread - I feel like in context I was pretty clear, but for total clarity:

I think rapists should have their lives ruined.

Most people who are accused of rape are rapists.

Therefore, most people who are accused of rape should have their lives ruined.

That simple syllogism was all that sentence was intended to convey - and, again, I feel like it was pretty clear in context, but I was irritated enough by the time I wrote that post that it is perhaps only 90% clear, so let's hope this brings it up to 100%. I do not seek to ruin anyone's life solely on the basis of an allegation. I seek to avoid rapists and punish rapists, and if I believe someone to be a rapist, I will therefore avoid them and advocate for their punishment. Unlike, it seems, some people here, my standards for "belief that someone is a rapist" don't require seventeen separate pieces of DNA evidence, four reliable male witnesses, a video recording of the rape in progress, a conviction, and a signed confession from the rapist saying, "YES, I AM A RAPIST, SO IT'S OKAY TO TREAT ME LIKE ONE NOW." They simply require reasonably persuasive evidence, of which simple testimony can frequently be one example. My standards for "belief that someone should be convicted of rape" are significantly higher, because that's a very different thing. (Similarly, I think the OJ jury was right to find him not guilty. I also think he very probably committed murder, and would treat him accordingly - as, I suspect, would most people here.)

A lot of people here are just reacting reflexively to that, out of some fear that for whatever reason there's a chance that they may be accused by someone falsely, and that if word-of-mouth is all it takes to be convicted in the court of public opinion, then there is no recourse for them. Not that I would compare it to rape, but I can't help but note the element of a loss of power and control there.

I wouldn't call it very reflexive.

1.) If you are accused of rape, TNB & like-minded individuals believe that there is a very high (much better than even) probability that are a rapist. (It's somewhere in the general range of 6-98% according to various outlandish and naive claims, with more precise figures being claimed in the range of 20-80%, and the occasional specific study giving a 40-60% false accusation rate; these studies, of course, always have some problems, and there are far too few of them to generalize very well, especially in changing times.)
2.) Ergo, very little evidence will be required to convince TNB & lmi that you are a rapist.
3.) Once convinced with that very little evidence, TNB & lmi will seek to "avoid and punish" you.

These three elements, combined with the way information actually propagates (i.e., very imprecisely and often via rumormongering) are precisely why false accusations of rape often ruin lives. A significant fraction of the population will be convinced of the veracity of the claim, based on what is objectively little to no evidence - fact and rumor will circulate side by side with rumor being distorted, typically in whatever manner makes it more interesting, which embellishing will tend to add convincing details based on the rumor-monger's slant.

Your attack on wanting to hold out for actual evidence is, of course, duly noted. I would like to invite all reading this to feel free to review my commentary on NSG's assorted "this week's rape story in the news" threads, which tend to include large measures of "stop jumping to conclusions based on a three line news article" and contingent analysis couched with lots of appropriate "if...then" statements.

Believe what you believe about someone's guilt or innocence, folks; but I'd like you to always carefully consider whether the standard by which you're deciding to "avoid and punish" is one which has any real two-way resolution between the guilty and the innocent.

[Egrek]

I scored 3/30, that makes me 10% in favor of rape and 90% against it.