This woman thinks all men support rape

[Ifreann]

Me, I think the appropriate response is to assume she's probably but not certainly telling the truth - because that's what statistics support - then examine the evidence, and come to the best conclusion you can based on it...which means being accused of rape SHOULD generally ruin lives, because generally, being accused of rape means you're a fucking rapist.)

I'm civilized and follow the core belief of innocent till proven guilty, I could care less what the accusations are. We have a system of courts to handle whether they end up being valid or not. But that you would not only vilify the accused yourself,

After examining the available evidence. My, how unreasonable.

but dismiss the entre concept as then likely being guilty anyway?

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is dismissing the concept of presumed innocence? That's ridiculous.

You're a rapist. You're a fucking rapist. That you do it with media-attention is besides the point.

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is the same as rape? That's just batshit insane.

[Tekania]

I'm civilized and follow the core belief of innocent till proven guilty, I could care less what the accusations are. We have a system of courts to handle whether they end up being valid or not. But that you would not only vilify the accused yourself,

After examining the available evidence. My, how unreasonable.

but dismiss the entre concept as then likely being guilty anyway?

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is dismissing the concept of presumed innocence? That's ridiculous.

You're a rapist. You're a fucking rapist. That you do it with media-attention is besides the point.

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is the same as rape? That's just batshit insane.

No it's not. These people want to talk about "Rape culture" and dismissing of it. Yet, they would not only themselves engage in acts to vilify the accused, but do so additionally under the guise "they are likely guilty anyway" and thus empowering situations of peoples lives being forever marred by a false allegation? Doesn't matter if most accused are guilty. That's not a fucking excuse for the vilification of even one single innocent.

[Alien Space Bats]

I'm aware that as a woman, it's something she has probably never had cause to worry about

Wow. Just....wow. If we want to talk about "facts that have come up before on NSG," the fact that you could seriously say something this ridiculously offensive to ME...well, it says a lot about you. Congratulations, you've just made the list of "posters I will never be able to respect or take remotely seriously again." If you'd like to keep baiting me, please do it inside your head, because I'm done engaging with you in this thread if these are the depths to which you'll stoop.

Yeah, and John McCain doesn't know a thing about torture. Rick Santorum said so.

<pause>

Perhaps, TJ, the difference between your rival perspectives lies in the fact that rape is a crime you, as a male, have only a very low percentage chance of ever experiencing from the standpoint of a victim, whereas NB, as a woman, faces a better than 1-in-4 chance of being raped at least once in her life.

Yeah, let that sink in. Better than 1-in-4, and that's conservative, as so many rapes go unreported.

It's natural that NB is concerned about whether we create and perpetuate a culture in which the most common form of rape - a date or prospective lover going over the line - is trivialized. Society does punish rape severely; indeed, that may well be part of the problem. Why would it be part of the problem? Because for most people, the word "rape" conjures images of random assault by a psychopathic loner, one who possibly doubles as a serial killer. We don't think of boyfriends and husbands who won't take no for an answer as rapists, and so our societally-approved punishment for rape is far harsher than it would be if we thought it might be applied in "a simple case of misunderstanding".

This dichotomy results in the trivialization of rape in general, and of certain kinds of rape in particular. It is this that NB sees, and - as a prospective rape victim - she's naturally unhappy about a state of affairs that places her personally at risk.

Now, in contrast to that, NB, men like TJ see the vigorous application of rape laws to certain "romantic situations" as a dangerous thing. In particular, since TJ is unlikely to be raped, the greatest danger to him is the possibility of a misunderstanding or - worse - a false accusation. He wants his rights as a prospective criminal defendant zealously upheld, because that's the only likely way in which he'll ever be involved in a rape case. It's not that he wants to have the right to rape his dates; he just doesn't want to be convicted of a crime he didn't commit (or any other man, for that matter).

Now, for my part, as a 55-year old man, I see the likelihood of a false rape accusation holding up in court as being relatively small. We've had high-profile sexual assault cases involving athletes and celebrities, and - frankly speaking - I don't think the record supports either the idea that rape is a crime we whitewash when the situation involves a romantic encounter gone bad, or the idea that every man is at the mercy of any woman who later decides to falsely accuse him of violating her. I certainly wouldn't worry about being falsely accused of rape if I were back out there on the dating scene, and I don't really think that any sensible man who behaves responsibly has much of anything to worry about in seeking intimate involvement with a woman. Now, that could be because I don't have time for coy women; if a woman plays hard to get, then I assume she doesn't want me, and I move on. Such an approach hasn't really deprived me of opportunities for intimacy in my 35+ years of sexual activity, and I don't see why it should be a major problem for any other man. And I'm not even all that good-looking, nor have I got the most charming personality in the world; indeed, if I can get laid, it's likely anybody can.

This may explain why I side more with NB on this issue: Men aren't really all that inconvenienced by a culture that insists that they perform greater "due diligence" before initiating a "merger". Women, on the other hand, would most definitely be safer under such a environment.

Minimal harm vs. considerable gain? To me, this is really almost a no-brainer.

[Nazis in Space]

I'm not sure that the one-in-ten chance of a male experiencing rape as a victim counts as a much lower percentage than the one-in-four chance of a female experiencing it. Two and a half times difference are significant, but not exactly order of magnitude territory.

[Andaluciae]

I like how chauvinism is now the polar opposite of "feminism"

I'm sure I'm about to get trolled for daring to question definitions

Not trolling, so much as pointing out that chauvinism is, definitionally, a feeling of overdone, or bellicose pride in a group you belong to. Originally, it was used in conjunction with nationalism. So, as a ridiculous example, you could be a Skechers chauvinist, and constantly deride wearers of Pumas.

[Ifreann]

After examining the available evidence. My, how unreasonable.

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is dismissing the concept of presumed innocence? That's ridiculous.

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is the same as rape? That's just batshit insane.

No it's not. These people want to talk about "Rape culture" and dismissing of it. Yet, they would not only themselves engage in acts to vilify the accused, but do so additionally under the guise "they are likely guilty anyway" and thus empowering situations of peoples lives being forever marred by a false allegation? Doesn't matter if most accused are guilty. That's not a fucking excuse for the vilification of even one single innocent.

So, if everything I know points towards John Doe being a rapist, I should not conclude that he's probably a rapist? That sounds like a terrible idea.

[Alien Space Bats]

I'm not sure that the one-in-ten chance of a male experiencing rape as a victim counts as a much lower percentage than the one-in-four chance of a female experiencing it. Two and a half times difference are significant, but not exactly order of magnitude territory.

You're misreading the stats.

The chance of a male being raped is not 1-in-10. Rather, 10% of rape victims are male. That means that the odds of a man being raped are on the order of 1-in-30.

Further, almost all cases of rape involving a male victim are homosexual rape and - as with women - the majority of those involve romantic situations gone bad. Adjusting for the size of the gay population in America and moving the male rape victims into that group yields a rape percentage for gay males just below that of women.

So, unless TJ is a gay or bisexual male, his chances of becoming a rape victim are quite small.

[Nazis in Space]

Hm. You raise a valid point, re: Numbers. I should've known better than that. I do, admittedly, feel like throwing in some anecdotal 'Evidence', but since I'm a sucker for statistics, I wont.

[The Congregationists]

I mean, just fucking WOW. What in all of the names of FUCK is wrong with you? No, seriously, what is? Is it just a mind-numbing inability to grasp another person's viewpoint? Is it just that you're that fucking stupid, that you were dropped on your head that many fucking times as a kid?

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? How has anything she said painted her as someone who hates all men? For that matter, what the fuck kind of person actually thinks that people "live in fear of being accused of rape"? Or that being accused of rape is somehow anywhere remotely near equivalent to actually being raped?

I...I just can't fucking believe you actually said this. You, sir, are THE fucking moron to which all morons aspire to be. You're the king of idiocy. And no, I don't give a fuck how much of a warning I get for this post. This needed to be said.

Where the hell are the mods? Why is this tolerated when the point of view expressed is politically correct or the person flamed unpopular or politically incorrect? This is bullying, plain and simple. You, sir or ma'am, can get the fuck off this board if this is how you're going to be and let the adults settle this, shall we?

On a better note,

Alien Space Bats,

Ultimately I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" in accusations of rape, as with accusations of any crime. Other than that, your previous posts were brilliant. While I don't agree with you on everything, you're a rare voice of reason in a debate that all too often becomes about personal animosity and grinding axes. I tip my hat to you. You are an example for us all. While it's understandable that people who've had involvement with this one way or another (a rape survior or someone falsely accused of rape) will find this an emotional, even a "trigger" issue, the best answers will not be found by heads hot with prejudice.

[Ifreann]

Where the hell are the mods?

Mods are asleep, post Captain Planet.



Alternatively, make a thread in moderation.

[Gauthier]

It's a faceless blog. Any way to be sure this is a woman writing and not a guy having trollgasmic ejaculations from everyone's response?

[Tekania]

So, if everything I know points towards John Doe being a rapist, I should not conclude that he's probably a rapist? That sounds like a terrible idea.

Until he or she is officially convicted yes. Even then it should not be all that extensive, and should be limited to criminal penalty, cause should the conviction be overturned, there is no sense that he/she remain under vilification. Brad Ross was still being spit upon even after providing authorities with unimpeachable evidence he wasn't even in town at the time of the party where he had been identified as one of the attackers/rapists. That you would have been standing in that group not only equally vilifying, but justifying the vilification speaks volumes.

[Keronians]

I'm not sure that the one-in-ten chance of a male experiencing rape as a victim counts as a much lower percentage than the one-in-four chance of a female experiencing it. Two and a half times difference are significant, but not exactly order of magnitude territory.

You're misreading the stats.

The chance of a male being raped is not 1-in-10. Rather, 10% of rape victims are male. That means that the odds of a man being raped are on the order of 1-in-30.

Further, almost all cases of rape involving a male victim are homosexual rape and - as with women - the majority of those involve romantic situations gone bad. Adjusting for the size of the gay population in America and moving the male rape victims into that group yields a rape percentage for gay males just below that of women.

So, unless TJ is a gay or bisexual male, his chances of becoming a rape victim are quite small.

To be fair though, it is also more likely for a male rape to go unreported.

[Samuraikoku]

To be fair though, it is also more likely for a male rape to go unreported.

Adding to that, there's a BELIEF (I don't know whether that can be true) that male victims of rape are not likely to report (I'm talking woman raping man scenario).

[Risottia]

You're a fucking rapist.

Well, a non-fucking rapist would be a weird occurence indeed.

/bad taste joke.

[Keronians]

To be fair though, it is also more likely for a male rape to go unreported.

Adding to that, there's a BELIEF (I don't know whether that can be true) that male victims of rape are not likely to report (I'm talking woman raping man scenario).

Conceded.

But it is still a reasonable belief.

[The Atlantean Menace]

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is dismissing the concept of presumed innocence? That's ridiculous.

No, it isn't. The FBI estimates that 8% of rape accusations are unfounded. By comparison, the average for all crimes is 2%. This means that someone who accused of rape is 4 times more likely to be innocent than someone accused of most other crimes.

So, yes, saying someone accused of rape is a rapist is ignoring the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

[East Canuck]

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is dismissing the concept of presumed innocence? That's ridiculous.

No, it isn't. The FBI estimates that 8% of rape accusations are unfounded. By comparison, the average for all crimes is 2%. This means that someone who accused of rape is 4 times more likely to be innocent than someone accused of most other crimes.

Or 12,5 times more likely to be a rapist than not. Isn't statistics grand?

So, yes, saying someone accused of rape is a rapist is ignoring the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

That is correct

[The Chaos Heart]

I'm aware that as a woman, it's something she has probably never had cause to worry about - women are rarely accused of such things, and accusations of rape aimed at women are often not taken seriously; and while it's statistically reasonably likely that she herself has taken part in the social shunning of someone identified (rightly or wrongly) as a "sex offender," she probably never tried to put herself in the accused's shoes - just as many men may have a little bit more difficulty empathizing with a rape victim, or understanding why a woman might not want to come forward and be identified as a rape victim. I mentioned that studies have shown that even uncouth frat boys can learn to move away from rape myths; and if that's possible, well, then, perhaps TNB can learn to empathize with men.

Wow.

I mean, just fucking WOW. What in all of the names of FUCK is wrong with you? No, seriously, what is? Is it just a mind-numbing inability to grasp another person's viewpoint? Is it just that you're that fucking stupid, that you were dropped on your head that many fucking times as a kid?

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? How has anything she said painted her as someone who hates all men? For that matter, what the fuck kind of person actually thinks that people "live in fear of being accused of rape"? Or that being accused of rape is somehow anywhere remotely near equivalent to actually being raped?

I...I just can't fucking believe you actually said this. You, sir, are THE fucking moron to which all morons aspire to be. You're the king of idiocy. And no, I don't give a fuck how much of a warning I get for this post. This needed to be said.

Pray tell, what was she trying to say then by creating a list which encompasses the vast VAST majority of males? Seeing as you're so enlightened.

Also, all of her points are horribly flawed. She is completely deserving to be mocked.

[Neo Art]

Acknowledging that people accused of rape are generally rapists is dismissing the concept of presumed innocence? That's ridiculous.

No, it isn't. The FBI estimates that 8% of rape accusations are unfounded.

Which then suggests that there is a foundation for 92% of all rape accusations. So there is evidence to suggest that for every 100 people accused of rape, 92 of them are actual rapists.....yeah, I think that makes it pretty fair to say that "people accused of rape are generally rapists"

So, yes, saying someone accused of rape is a rapist is ignoring the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

"innocent until proven guilty" is a legal mechanism in a court of law that requires that proof must be shown before conviction. It has no bearing outside of a court of law. It in no way detracts from the legal proceeding that one must be legally proven to have committed rape before that individual can be convicted to say that someone accussed of rape, more likely than not (about 92% of the time so it would seem by your own uncited admission) is a rapist.

[Hydesland]

I mean, just fucking WOW. What in all of the names of FUCK is wrong with you?

I think, given this ridiculously disproportionate and emotional response, you should definitely be asking yourself that question. It's impossible to take your position as remotely rational and objective when the entire substance of your post was extremely emotionally laden insults and rhetoric.

[GeneralHaNor]

No, it isn't. The FBI estimates that 8% of rape accusations are unfounded.

Which then suggests that there is a foundation for 92% of all rape accusations. So there is evidence to suggest that for every 100 people accused of rape, 92 of them are actual rapists.....yeah, I think that makes it pretty fair to say that "people accused of rape are generally rapists"

So, yes, saying someone accused of rape is a rapist is ignoring the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

"innocent until proven guilty" is a legal mechanism in a court of law that requires that proof must be shown before conviction. It has no bearing outside of a court of law. It in no way detracts from the legal proceeding that one must be legally proven to have committed rape before that individual can be convicted to say that someone accussed of rape, more likely than not (about 92% of the time so it would seem by your own uncited admission) is a rapist.

That only applies to those that go to trial and are not convicted, there are accusations that are dropped based on lacking (or even contradictory) evidence, and those are 'proven' guilty, who in fact aren't guilty.

Probably much higher than 8%, and considering that as a man, you are about 90% likely to be raped in prison, I think so new evidence standards are in order, and stricter 'false reporting' laws to boot.

[The Atlantean Menace]

No, it isn't. The FBI estimates that 8% of rape accusations are unfounded.

Which then suggests that there is a foundation for 92% of all rape accusations. So there is evidence to suggest that for every 100 people accused of rape, 92 of them are actual rapists.....yeah, I think that makes it pretty fair to say that "people accused of rape are generally rapists"

No, actually it doesn't mean 92% of them are actual rapists. "Unfounded" in this context does not necessarily mean it's untrue, and "founded" doesn't necessarily mean that it is true. This is because local criteria to decree something "unfounded" vary.

http://www.straightstatistics.org/blog/ ... ction-rate

The rape conviction rate is about 58%, so only 58% of that 92% (Presumably the unfounded cases do not go to trial) are rapists. If they aren't convicted of rape, that would seem to mean there was insufficient evidence to prove that they committed a rape or to prove that a rape occurred, and therefore they aren't rapists. Further, I believe the statistic is that 1 in 10 people in prison are innocent. In the case of rape, it's probably higher, but let's use that 10% figure.

Based on that, it would seem that only about 40% of people accused of rape are actually rapists, meaning that an accused rapist is more likely to NOT actually be a rapist.

[The Atlantean Menace]

Probably much higher than 8%, and considering that as a man, you are about 90% likely to be raped in prison, I think so new evidence standards are in order, and stricter 'false reporting' laws to boot.

Speaking of which, I was looking into this kind of thing while I was looking for statistic on false rape convictions (Couldn't find them.)

I don't know if this is true, but, uh...

http://www.falsely-accused.net/rapecases.html

In many states, the judge now informs the jury that:

an allegation of rape does not require any evidence of corroboration;
there is no requirement for medical evidence;
there is no requirement for DNA evidence; and
there is no requirement for a second witness.

In short, the only requirement for a conviction is the bare allegation made by a complainant. Even the manner in which the jury is selected is tainted with this attitude that evidence does not matter. In many states, prosecutors can demand that during the selection process, each prospective juror must agree that he/she would not require corroboration of a crime. If the juror disagrees with this demand, he/she can be excused.

[The Atlantean Menace]

I can understand a quick lawl, but why is this thread still going?

Because NSG has a minority of people who at least partially agree with the woman's points. Therefore, the thread is now an argument, rather than a "lawl what a dumbass!" circle jerk.