Should the U.S. support Israel?

[Vecherd]

Here the Liberal supports Israel and the Authoritarian are against Israel.

get out.

No I like Europe.

Cyprus isnt an Islamic nation.

but it is in the middle east which was what was asked (suppose you could argue Northern Cyprus if you want to be controversial)

It isnt legal in Northern-Cyprus.

[Conserative Morality]

Yup. Something America's all too familiar with...

Familiar? Yes. Good at? Not particularly. We tend to jump from soft power convincing style sort of thing straight to violence. Coercion is usually skipped.

A pity.

[Genivaria]

I think you mean that America doesn't know how to use soft power.

Look at Europe. There's an example of how to make good use of soft power.

Not really...? Not most of Europe, anyway. Europe has done very little independently with it's considerable amount of power.

There just luring us into a false sense of security.

[Siorafrica]

Northern Ireland was sorted out because of American money. The Arab-Jewish conflicts still haven't been because America clearly isn't neutral. The idea that Israel can't defend itself is rubbish. The first war was tied until American equiptment was given to Israel. Look at the 6 Day War. The Arabs are useless at fighting.

[Keronians]

Yup. Something America's all too familiar with...

Familiar? Yes. Good at? Not particularly. We tend to jump from soft power convincing style sort of thing straight to violence. Coercion is usually skipped.

A pity.

Oh, not at all. It's hilarious from an outsider's point of view.

You do that, then begin wondering where you went wrong. Then you do it again, and it's just beautiful. Worth paying money for.

[Syvorji]

but it is in the middle east which was what was asked (suppose you could argue Northern Cyprus if you want to be controversial)

It isnt legal in Northern-Cyprus.

Actually, according to Wikipedia, most of Cyprus's Muslims come from North Cyprus. Why? It is occupied by Turkey.[/captain obvious]

[Darenjo]

We tried that. It's called the Clinton and Bush Administrations.

Yeah, Bush was pretty inept at the whole 'soft' power thing.

Well, I did say America doesn't know when to use "hard power". But, with Israel, Bush didn't really do much after the 2005 Palestinian elections pissed off Israel.

And, um, if "soft power" mattered more than actual power, then Iran and North Korea would not have nukes, America would take orders from China, Russia would be a gigantic corporation-state, etc. "Hard" power still matters. A lot. America just doesn't know when to use it.

Military strength contributes to soft power.

Of course it does. But rhetoric (the only form of "soft power" used on Israel) while it has worked miracles on world public opinion, has done little or nothing to make Israel budge over the past few years, whether it was said by Bush or Obama.

Actually, I watched some of Obama's speech to AIPAC earlier. The only good part was where he said that both Israel and Palestine should exist, based on the 1967 lines. The rest pretty much disgusted me.

My suggestion: cut military aid to Israel. Wait for peace progress to make miraculous progress after we tell Israel what it takes to get said aid back.

[Keronians]

I think you mean that America doesn't know how to use soft power.

Look at Europe. There's an example of how to make good use of soft power.

Not really...? Not most of Europe, anyway. Europe has done very little independently with it's considerable amount of power.

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

[EnragedMaldivians]

We tried that. It's called the Clinton and Bush Administrations.

And, um, if "soft power" mattered more than actual power, then Iran and North Korea would not have nukes, America would take orders from China, Russia would be a gigantic corporation-state, etc. "Hard" power still matters. A lot. America just doesn't know when to use it.

I think you mean that America doesn't know how to use soft power.

Look at Europe. There's an example of how to make good use of soft power.

Yes - 50 years after the U.S effectively created the worlds most succesful security regime. And why don't the British care for the ESDP/CSDP fully replacing NATO again? Hint: it might be because that would dilute Americas sense of defensive commitment to Europe (even if it is a bit antiquated now).

Not really...? Not most of Europe, anyway. Europe has done very little independently with it's considerable amount of power.

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

A Multi-polar world is not a good thing to have to return to.

[Kleomentia]

It would be interesting if they would support them.

[Genivaria]

Yeah, Bush was pretty inept at the whole 'soft' power thing.

Well, I did say America doesn't know when to use "hard power". But, with Israel, Bush didn't really do much after the 2005 Palestinian elections pissed off Israel.

Military strength contributes to soft power.

Of course it does. But rhetoric (the only form of "soft power" used on Israel) while it has worked miracles on world public opinion, has done little or nothing to make Israel budge over the past few years, whether it was said by Bush or Obama.

Actually, I watched some of Obama's speech to AIPAC earlier. The only good part was where he said that both Israel and Palestine should exist, based on the 1967 lines. The rest pretty much disgusted me.

My suggestion: cut military aid to Israel. Wait for peace progress to make miraculous progress after we tell Israel what it takes to get said aid back.

Blackmail. I like it. Do it.

[Solyhniya]

Israel won that land fair and square. Who are we to tell them to give it up?

Would you rather have a huge amount of Anti Jewish forces from the Middle east take over isreal and possibly kill everyone and restore it Palestine..

Or...

Ask them to move themselves back to there 1967 borders

If the Arabs hadn't prepared to invade Israel then Israel would never have expanded. Every war Israel has been in has been started by their enemies.

[Conserative Morality]

Of course it does. But rhetoric (the only form of "soft power" used on Israel) while it has worked miracles on world public opinion, has done little or nothing to make Israel budge over the past few years, whether it was said by Bush or Obama.

Actually, I watched some of Obama's speech to AIPAC earlier. The only good part was where he said that both Israel and Palestine should exist, based on the 1967 lines. The rest pretty much disgusted me.

My suggestion: cut military aid to Israel. Wait for peace progress to make miraculous progress after we tell Israel what it takes to get said aid back.

I disagree. Cut aid to Israel. Permanently. Israel feels they have no obligation to us, they are untrustworthy in their dealings with us. This has been born out of necessity and the realization that we only support them because we felt that they were our only ally in the MidEast... But with the SovUnion no longer around, they had a chance to either shape up or face the consequences. They chose not to shape up, they chose to continue to try to play us like it's still the Cold War. It's time to abandon them to the wolves and pick a country that strikes a relatively balanced supporter-supportee relationship.

[Keronians]

I think you mean that America doesn't know how to use soft power.

Look at Europe. There's an example of how to make good use of soft power.

Yes - 50 years after the U.S effectively created the worlds most succesful security regime. And why don't the British care for the ESDP/CSDP fully replacing NATO again? Hint: it might be because that would dilute Americas sense of defensive commitment to Europe (even if it is a bit antiquated now).

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

A Multi-polar world is not a good thing to have to return to.

I just said to have something like that IN a multi-polar World was a good thing.

And really, there's not much we can do about it. The World IS becoming multi-polar again.

[Kleomentia]

Would you rather have a huge amount of Anti Jewish forces from the Middle east take over isreal and possibly kill everyone and restore it Palestine..

Or...

Ask them to move themselves back to there 1967 borders

If the Arabs hadn't prepared to invade Israel then Israel would never have expanded. Every war Israel has been in has been started by their enemies.

And Israel has won.

[Keronians]

Of course it does. But rhetoric (the only form of "soft power" used on Israel) while it has worked miracles on world public opinion, has done little or nothing to make Israel budge over the past few years, whether it was said by Bush or Obama.

Actually, I watched some of Obama's speech to AIPAC earlier. The only good part was where he said that both Israel and Palestine should exist, based on the 1967 lines. The rest pretty much disgusted me.

My suggestion: cut military aid to Israel. Wait for peace progress to make miraculous progress after we tell Israel what it takes to get said aid back.

I disagree. Cut aid to Israel. Permanently. Israel feels they have no obligation to us, they are untrustworthy in their dealings with us. This has been born out of necessity and the realization that we only support them because we felt that they were our only ally in the MidEast... But with the SovUnion no longer around, they had a chance to either shape up or face the consequences. They chose not to shape up, they chose to continue to try to play us like it's still the Cold War. It's time to abandon them to the wolves and pick a country that strikes a relatively balanced supporter-supportee relationship.

Qatar?

[Esoterias]

If the Arabs hadn't prepared to invade Israel then Israel would never have expanded. Every war Israel has been in has been started by their enemies.

And Israel has won.

And that is why they shouldn't secede to their own borders.

[Conserative Morality]

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

Caution leaves countries by the wayside.

[Darenjo]

Not really...? Not most of Europe, anyway. Europe has done very little independently with it's considerable amount of power.

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

Not really. America has too many internal problems to be heavily involved in the rest of the world right now (there's a reason our troops are supposed to be out of Iraq by the end of the year). If Europe did more regarding, say, Libya, or Iran, or Israel/Palestine, I have a feeling that a lot of that would be greatly appreciated by the American public.

[Kleomentia]

And Israel has won.

And that is why they shouldn't secede to their own borders.

Yes.

[Conserative Morality]

Qatar?

Turkey.

[Keronians]

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

Caution leaves countries by the wayside.

CAUTION, yes. Dick-waving Bush style, not so much.

[Esoterias]

That's a good thing in an increasingly multi-polar World, IMO.

Not really. America has too many internal problems to be heavily involved in the rest of the world right now (there's a reason our troops are supposed to be out of Iraq by the end of the year). If Europe did more regarding, say, Libya, or Iran, or Israel/Palestine, I have a feeling that a lot of that would be greatly appreciated by the American public.

It seems like England is the only one doing that now a days.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Yes - 50 years after the U.S effectively created the worlds most succesful security regime. And why don't the British care for the ESDP/CSDP fully replacing NATO again? Hint: it might be because that would dilute Americas sense of defensive commitment to Europe (even if it is a bit antiquated now).



A Multi-polar world is not a good thing to have to return to.

I just said to have something like that IN a multi-polar World was a good thing.

And really, there's not much we can do about it. The World IS becoming multi-polar again.

True. But it will take a while.

But *Ahem* - yeah, Israel....

Well; you don't really have much of a choice to be honest - it's a combination of geo-political reasons, historical inertia and domestic politics. It would be ridiculous to suddenly declare that the U.S will no longer support Israel.

[Solyhniya]

If the Arabs hadn't prepared to invade Israel then Israel would never have expanded. Every war Israel has been in has been started by their enemies.

And Israel has won.

Good. I'm glad the only Jewish nation hasn't been depopulated.