Should the U.S. support Israel?

[United Gackle]

We secured the safety of said oil, so that we would continue to have access to it.

You probably think war is good, don't you? Stop supporting the Capitalistic, Moralistic, Religious, and Arrogant States of America or the CMRASA for short!
I really am displeased that you think war is good. All it does is kill human beings who have the right to live as much as you do. But of course, you call them tribals, and say it's ok to shoot them with machine-guns, right?

The US secured Iraq and took the Tyrant saddam out of power WHO BTW was killing his own people for revolting AND preventing their Freedom but US didn't take oil it all went to Iraq US Soliders just secured it for them

[Keronians]

You probably think war is good, don't you? Stop supporting the Capitalistic, Moralistic, Religious, and Arrogant States of America or the CMRASA for short!
I really am displeased that you think war is good. All it does is kill human beings who have the right to live as much as you do. But of course, you call them tribals, and say it's ok to shoot them with machine-guns, right?

The US secured Iraq and took the Tyrant saddam out of power WHO BTW was killing his own people for revolting AND preventing their Freedom but US didn't take oil it all went to Iraq US Soliders just secured it for them

Yes, but the Iraqis didn't want the US invading them either.

Thus all the insurgencies.

[New Glennland]

The U.S. should continue to support Israel, but not exclusively and unconditionally as in years past. That's the reason the State of Israel is the spoiled brat it is.

[Ralkovia]

Did I say that EVERY SINGLE INTANCE of it was profitable and in your interests. Perhaps there's a middle ground between complete isolationism and gratuitous interventionism. Keep a sphere when it's in your interests - don't when it's not. Simple.

Who wants isolationism. Free trade =/= isolationism.
Name one war that has been profitable.

World War One, World War Two, Spanish-American War...

Any war in which we win or secure a victory, is a profitable war. We get concessions, an influx of ideas, investments, etc.

Profitable doesn't necessarily have to mean getting loads of money. Just that your returns are more than your costs.

[-St George]

Who wants isolationism. Free trade =/= isolationism.
Name one war that has been profitable.

World War One, World War Two, Spanish-American War...

Any war in which we win or secure a victory, is a profitable war. We get concessions, an influx of ideas, investments, etc.

Profitable doesn't necessarily have to mean getting loads of money. Just that your returns are more than your costs.

Even wars which you ostensible 'lose' can be profitable, as evidenced by the aftermath of the War of 1812.

[New Chalcedon]

World War One, World War Two, Spanish-American War...

Any war in which we win or secure a victory, is a profitable war. We get concessions, an influx of ideas, investments, etc.

Profitable doesn't necessarily have to mean getting loads of money. Just that your returns are more than your costs.

Even wars which you ostensible 'lose' can be profitable, as evidenced by the aftermath of the War of 1812.

Actually, the War of 1812 resulted in a status quo ante bellum between England and the US. Neither side won or lost that war, which may well ahve been one of the dumbest ever started by the US.

[-St George]

Even wars which you ostensible 'lose' can be profitable, as evidenced by the aftermath of the War of 1812.

Actually, the War of 1812 resulted in a status quo ante bellum between England and the US. Neither side won or lost that war, which may well ahve been one of the dumbest ever started by the US.

Meh. Washington was burnt to the ground. Tis a win in my book. But w/e. The point stands.

[Glorious Freedonia]

You are either for Israel or against Israel. I am and will always be for Israel. Anyone that doesn't is a jew hater.

Your level of annorgance astonishes me. So by your response, I am a "Jew hater". Well, I will tell you right now, that I am not. I have Jewish relatives, and we get along fine. I support Israel, but at the same time, I do not. Actions speak loader than words, and what Israel did is bad. Shooting innocent protesters? Denying land that had been inhabited after they left Zion? That's unspeakably evil right there.

Sorry for the double post.

There were no innocent protestors shot by Israel. What is that land business about it so I can deny that too?

[Great New Albion]

...What is this?

Peace can never be created through war, only vengeance, extremism and then more war.

Yes it can. The U.S enforced a viable security regime in the Middle East after the first gulf war - until the Bush Jr. Administration went completely insane.

The European Concert in the 19th century, following the Napoleonic invasions, enforced a balance of power under Mettenrich - using the threat of force to keep the peace.

Your statement is idiotic.

By viable security regimes you mean the unstable, sectarian, totaletarian dictatorships which bred terrorism and anti-americanism? And a lasting peace which lasted an incredible 14 years? Wow. I was wrong.

The Congress of Vienna didn't last either. The entire point of it was that it aimed to put everything back to the way it was before. By 1848, just 34 years after it was signed the treaty was forgotten about. The crimean wars, the italian war of indpendence, the franco prussian war, the austro-prussian war all followed.

The only valid time I will recognise in history where war created peace was the second world war, as mentioned. But even so Europe was still unstable and divided. There were several times when a third world war looked inevitable.

Thinking we can invade the middle east and then everything will be fine is an idiotic idea for the deluded optimistic. These Jihadists, You cannot frighten them. They want to die. you cannot stop them. In many an unstable middle eastern country anyone can improvise a bomb and use it. Invading the middle east is only strengthening their resolve. 300,000-4,000,000 people died in the past 10 years in Afgahnistan and Iraq. Don't you think they will want revenge? They will blame foreigners rather than themselves. All that has happened is the situation has worsened. Far more terrorist attacks occur now. More military activity will continue the cycle or revenge.

[Great New Albion]

You probably think war is good, don't you? Stop supporting the Capitalistic, Moralistic, Religious, and Arrogant States of America or the CMRASA for short!
I really am displeased that you think war is good. All it does is kill human beings who have the right to live as much as you do. But of course, you call them tribals, and say it's ok to shoot them with machine-guns, right?

The US secured Iraq and took the Tyrant saddam out of power WHO BTW was killing his own people for revolting AND preventing their Freedom but US didn't take oil it all went to Iraq US Soliders just secured it for them

Actually between America and Britain took 75 or 90 percent of Iraqi oil profits (Can't remember which one :/)

I also find it ironic how America makes such a thing about Iran, Iraq and the taliban and all the awful things they have done while supporting equally horrific regimes like Saudi Arabia at the same time.

Another fun fact. America once supported Saddam Hussien (Because of the iranian revolution) the Mujahadeen, taliban and Al Qaeda. (To keep the communists out) Funny how America was quite happy to have people stoned, gassed and their hands cut off while it suited their interests.

[SD_Film Artists]

Actually, the War of 1812 resulted in a status quo ante bellum between England and the US. Neither side won or lost that war, which may well ahve been one of the dumbest ever started by the US.

Meh. Washington was burnt to the ground. Tis a win in my book. But w/e. The point stands.

True, but as long as US school kids get taught the 'Battle of New Orleans' song, America has won XD.

[Keronians]

Meh. Washington was burnt to the ground. Tis a win in my book. But w/e. The point stands.

True, but as long as US school kids get taught the 'Battle of New Orleans' song, America has won XD.

That was a disgusting and dishonest battle.

I mean, come on.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Yes it can. The U.S enforced a viable security regime in the Middle East after the first gulf war - until the Bush Jr. Administration went completely insane.

The European Concert in the 19th century, following the Napoleonic invasions, enforced a balance of power under Mettenrich - using the threat of force to keep the peace.

Your statement is idiotic.

By viable security regimes you mean the unstable, sectarian, totaletarian dictatorships which bred terrorism and anti-americanism? And a lasting peace which lasted an incredible 14 years? Wow. I was wrong.

The Congress of Vienna didn't last either. The entire point of it was that it aimed to put everything back to the way it was before. By 1848, just 34 years after it was signed the treaty was forgotten about. The crimean wars, the italian war of indpendence, the franco prussian war, the austro-prussian war all followed.

The only valid time I will recognise in history where war created peace was the second world war, as mentioned. But even so Europe was still unstable and divided. There were several times when a third world war looked inevitable.

Thinking we can invade the middle east and then everything will be fine is an idiotic idea for the deluded optimistic. These Jihadists, You cannot frighten them. They want to die. you cannot stop them. In many an unstable middle eastern country anyone can improvise a bomb and use it. Invading the middle east is only strengthening their resolve. 300,000-4,000,000 people died in the past 10 years in Afgahnistan and Iraq. Don't you think they will want revenge? They will blame foreigners rather than themselves. All that has happened is the situation has worsened. Far more terrorist attacks occur now. More military activity will continue the cycle or revenge.

1. Terrorism is largely an overblown threat to global security; (short of Nuclear weapons falling into their hands) - violence perpetrated by them is usually directd at symbolic targets, and with exceptions - the casualties are quite low. In no way, does terrorism kill more people than conventional warfare.

Incidentally, totalatarian dictatorships and peace aren't antithetical (Mubarak was a good boy) - and it would have been a lot longer than 14 years, if, as I mentioned, the Neo-Cons hadn't hijacked Middle Eastern policy and the Bush administration went nuts.

If you don't think the 19th century (even taking into account all those wars you mentioned) - or the Cold War were anything other than relatively peaceful periods in world history (things can't be perfect, and nothing lasts indefinitely anyway) - you're the one thats deluded. Wars can't be eliminated - but their effects can be mitigated, through force if necessary.

2. Who said anythig about Invading the Middle East - I'm all for a rapproachment with Iran. And I opposed the second Iraq war. Just because I think war can sometimes lead to peace, does not mean that I support it in all instances. Still - the threat thereof can make for effective deterrence. :shrugs:

If you want to be optimistic; There ya go.

The US secured Iraq and took the Tyrant saddam out of power WHO BTW was killing his own people for revolting AND preventing their Freedom but US didn't take oil it all went to Iraq US Soliders just secured it for them

Actually between America and Britain took 75 or 90 percent of Iraqi oil profits (Can't remember which one :/)

I also find it ironic how America makes such a thing about Iran, Iraq and the taliban and all the awful things they have done while supporting equally horrific regimes like Saudi Arabia at the same time.

Another fun fact. America once supported Saddam Hussien (Because of the iranian revolution) the Mujahadeen, taliban and Al Qaeda. (To keep the communists out) Funny how America was quite happy to have people stoned, gassed and their hands cut off while it suited their interests.

States act in their National self-interest. To expect them to do otherwise, or ridigly adhere to a set of principles is absurd. Every great power has been a hypocrite - but sometimes, it's good to have them around.

[Finium]

I could understand not aligning ourselves with them in the first place, but it would be like murder to pull the rug now. Besides, if we let Israel alone we might as well attack the ourselves

[Flat Beats]

We can't leave the Jews out to die!! I don't want another Holocaust!! They're the only point of western civilization in the Middle East!! Everyone is working against us, against capitalism, and against Israel, I don't expect NS's liberal community to see or respect that, but it's getting to a point... Faith always wins, and who's at the table; Radicalized Islam would wipe them off the face of the planet, click YES in the pool if you respect human life! I hope this isn't a flashpoint, but Lord, it'll be.

[Wellonia]

I hope you people realize that America and Britain had a reason for re-establishing Isreal. So its not like we randomly sided with them, we are simply trying to maintain what we set up.

And you should also realize that the Isreali people had that land first. Over and over in the bible (yes this is the same Isreal), God would punish Isreal (usually by allowing them to be invaded) for turning away from him. Then they would repent and he would give them control of their land again. God is still the same God, and he was simply using the U.S. and Britain to give his people their land back. The other people who say the land is their's, are only partially right about that, but it is ultimately Isreal's.

[-St George]

I hope you people realize that America and Britain had a reason for re-establishing Isreal. So its not like we randomly sided with them, we are simply trying to maintain what we set up.

And you should also realize that the Isreali people had that land first. Over and over in the bible (yes this is the same Isreal), God would punish Isreal (usually by allowing them to be invaded) for turning away from him. Then they would repent and he would give them control of their land again. God is still the same God, and he was simply using the U.S. and Britain to give his people their land back. The other people who say the land is their's, are only partially right about that, but it is ultimately Isreal's.

You're ignoring the New Covenant, which states that God has chosen not to take as active a role as he did in the days of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was set down in the third century AD, so its not exactly a 'new' idea.

[Finium]

I hope you people realize that America and Britain had a reason for re-establishing Isreal. So its not like we randomly sided with them, we are simply trying to maintain what we set up.

And you should also realize that the Isreali people had that land first. Over and over in the bible (yes this is the same Isreal), God would punish Isreal (usually by allowing them to be invaded) for turning away from him. Then they would repent and he would give them control of their land again. God is still the same God, and he was simply using the U.S. and Britain to give his people their land back. The other people who say the land is their's, are only partially right about that, but it is ultimately Isreal's.

You're ignoring the New Covenant, which states that God has chosen not to take as active a role as he did in the days of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was set down in the third century AD, so its not exactly a 'new' idea.

it doesn't matter what the Bible says, it matters what Britain thinks it says

[Caninope]

Actually between America and Britain took 75 or 90 percent of Iraqi oil profits (Can't remember which one :/)

Source?

I also find it ironic how America makes such a thing about Iran, Iraq and the taliban and all the awful things they have done while supporting equally horrific regimes like Saudi Arabia at the same time.

You find it ironic that a country acts in it's own strategic interests?

Another fun fact. America once supported Saddam Hussien (Because of the iranian revolution) the Mujahadeen, taliban and Al Qaeda. (To keep the communists out) Funny how America was quite happy to have people stoned, gassed and their hands cut off while it suited their interests.

The US supported Hussein and the Mujaheddin, but not the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

[Crabulonia]

You find it ironic that a country acts in it's own strategic interests?

I think he finds it ironic that the US can support various terrorist organisations and questionable governments then changing tact and urging the same terrorist organisations and questionable governments to be stamped out the second they become unreliable.

So in fact yes, it is ironic that a nation acts in it's own strategic interests then technically brainwashes the population into believing their own country is always in the right.

[Caninope]

I think he finds it ironic that the US can support various terrorist organisations and questionable governments then changing tact and urging the same terrorist organisations and questionable governments to be stamped out the second they become unreliable.

So in fact yes, it is ironic that a nation acts in it's own strategic interests then technically brainwashes the population into believing their own country is always in the right.

The US doesn't "brainwash" as you say.

[Crabulonia]

I think he finds it ironic that the US can support various terrorist organisations and questionable governments then changing tact and urging the same terrorist organisations and questionable governments to be stamped out the second they become unreliable.

So in fact yes, it is ironic that a nation acts in it's own strategic interests then technically brainwashes the population into believing their own country is always in the right.

The US doesn't "brainwash" as you say.

Brainwash is a strong term, but I do talk with some people who seem to believe everything America does is right. These people don't seem to know everything that America gets up to and neglect that the US supports some highly shifty regimes such as Saudi while complaining about other ones. What Albion was saying is that he finds it ironic that the US can support terrorists while being against terrorists at the same time.

Brainwash is, again a strong term, not really representative of the whole population but there there must be some way in which some people can have such views on foreign policy that America can do whatever it wants whenever it wants.

[Finium]

Brainwash is a strong term, but I do talk with some people who seem to believe everything America does is right. These people don't seem to know everything that America gets up to and neglect that the US supports some highly shifty regimes such as Saudi while complaining about other ones. What Albion was saying is that he finds it ironic that the US can support terrorists. while being against terrorists at the same time.

Brainwash is, again a strong term, not really representative of the whole population but there there must be some way in which some people can have such views on foreign policy that America can do whatever it wants whenever it wants.

everything!?! I know there are some less than intelligent people on our planet, but surely they see the thousands of really stupid things our nation does

[AlexJacobii]

We should not support them, in fact we should invade them the next time they step out of line. Make sure to hoist a swastika flag over Jerusalem and remind them that they are nothing without our backing and that that will happen again if we did not aid them.

[Finium]

We should not support them, in fact we should invade them the next time they step out of line. Make sure to hoist a swastika flag over Jerusalem and remind them that they are nothing without our backing and that that will happen again if we did not aid them.

This is very true. If the US was a world empire, sorry, if the US was publicly a world empire than none of these things would be an issue