Should religion have a place in Schools

[Ovisterra]

Aaaaaaaand this is why we can't afford to waste time on religious indoctrination. We've got so many people walking around saying things like "evolution is a theory," parroting back the same (incorrect) talking points they've gotten from their (usually religious) social groups, and this is simply unacceptable for any country that wishes to be relevant in the modern age. There is no possible way to be a competitive force in terms of innovation and scientific progress if your population is still laboring under delusions like "evolution is a theory." It's like trying to engage in the Space Race while half your population believes that the Sun orbits the Earth.

To be technical, you can't really "prove" a theory. All you can do is reinforce it over time and testing. The theory of evolution is still a "theory" (though it may be considered a law or rule by this point, technically). However, regardless of that, at this point it's had sufficient time and testing that it's an operable foundation on which education should be built. Even if you don't personally believe it, it needs to be taught, it needs to be learned and understood if only for reference in further education.

Being dismissive of religious beliefs is about as self-destructive as being dismissive of scientific findings. Teach what is necessary to everyone, teach what you believe amongst those who share your faith, but disregard neither common knowledge nor personal beliefs or quite simply we're all being ignorant and foolhardy.

^this

I'm a pretty hard core Christian, and yet I score first in my science class, and am currently reading a 500 page book on the history and workings of the universe (the ones with more scientific backing, before you say anything). Religious belief should not and will not (if done right) interfere with science. The two can live in harmony.

Religious types can believe the widely accepted history of the universe except with god inserted into all the bits we're unsure of (like what it was like before the big bang and everything about particle physics), and others can simple accept that there is a logical explanation just waiting to be discovered.

Jeez lads. No need to fight. Learn to accept others.

[Deus in Machina]

Aaaaaaaand this is why we can't afford to waste time on religious indoctrination. We've got so many people walking around saying things like "evolution is a theory," parroting back the same (incorrect) talking points they've gotten from their (usually religious) social groups, and this is simply unacceptable for any country that wishes to be relevant in the modern age. There is no possible way to be a competitive force in terms of innovation and scientific progress if your population is still laboring under delusions like "evolution is a theory." It's like trying to engage in the Space Race while half your population believes that the Sun orbits the Earth.

To be technical, you can't really "prove" a theory. All you can do is reinforce it over time and testing. The theory of evolution is still a "theory" (though it may be considered a law or rule by this point, technically).

No. Laws are single facts, usually expressed as a mathematical equation. Theories are larger, more complex explanations, often incorporating multiple laws. By definition, a theory has more supporting evidence than a law.

Being dismissive of religious beliefs is about as self-destructive as being dismissive of scientific findings. Teach what is necessary to everyone, teach what you believe amongst those who share your faith, but disregard neither common knowledge nor personal beliefs or quite simply we're all being ignorant and foolhardy.

I wouldn't agree with you about the first part. Dismissing of religious belief is much less self-destructive than dismissing scientific findings. But there's no real way to quanitfy that, so moving on.
The bolded section suggests to me that you support teaching religion as a voluntary extra-curricular subject. Am I right in this interpretation?

[Kashmirstan]

So far I have not seen any solid proof that proves God exists, only more claims that it has to be true. If you are truly right, you should be able to prove God exists.

Ugh, no! This hijack is exactly the problem, and exactly why these kinds of subjects should NOT be in schools. There is absolutely no pragmatic value in such debates. It's fine to goof off and debate God on internet forums or in your dorm lounge, but class time should be for something productive and useful. Class time should be about imparting useful facts and applicable skills, not having rambling debates about somebody's personal beliefs about the existence of ghosts and spirits.

True that. After all, when every single one of my IGCSE teachers has told me that the grades I get don't mean a thing, since my A-levels are what matter, I am of course extremely happy that I have the pleasure of wasting me life away learning about titration, anhydrous copper (II) sulphate and it's colour change when in the presence of water, differentiation, how gamma rays can kill humans and, of course, my personal favourite, making up utter lies when I'm supposed to be comparing to pieces of English literature. 'The fact that the writer talks about Bruce Parry being "shattered" after his journeys could be a direct representation of what happened to him when he went to Ethiopia, or it could represent how he felt returning back to London, where he could no longer fit in, since his personality and his very existence had many parts in many different areas of the globe, leaving him "shattered".' What do you think? I don't know what the heck it means, but ah well.
Anyways, I think that actual life-skills learning about the people around us might actually help. Obviously, I don't have that problem, living in multi-cultural Qatar, but if you ask me, education is power. The Holocaust happened because Hitler successfully brainwashed an entire generation by telling them how bad Jews are. The Crusades happened because Christians though that 'Moslems' had some sort of 'Unholy Trinity' along with being regular sleeping partners with devils and what-not. Imagine all the slaughter that wouldn't have happened if people were educated enough to understand other peoples beliefs?
Not to mention that now 50% of Americans have a negative view of Islam, and a LOT more Pakistanis have a negative view of Christians, even though we love our Chinese friends.

[Flameswroth]

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Not particularly.

I mean, I don't insist that students be taught every system of D&D, from Chainmail to D&D 4th Edition, in order for them to decide which one, if any, they want to play. Although maybe we should...bitches always be talkin' like 4th Edition is evil, pretending it 'used to be better', but if they knew how much of a headache THAC0 and the 2nd Edition rules are they wouldn't be so critical...

[Bottle]

Yet another glowing example of why theology doesn't belong in schools; I think teaching correct punctuation, not to mention basic logical reasoning, should take priority. School is about preparing students to function as independent adults, after all.

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Of course not. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that everyone gets to make up their own facts, since that's simply not true. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that all opinions are equal, since that's simply not true. Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that reality doesn't always conform to your personal beliefs. Your opinion of gravity won't change how it works, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that schools teach otherwise.

[Deus in Machina]

Yet another glowing example of why theology doesn't belong in schools; I think teaching correct punctuation, not to mention basic logical reasoning, should take priority. School is about preparing students to function as independent adults, after all.

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Evolution is not a belief. It is a scientific theory with mountains of evidence behind it. Religious and philosophical beliefs are entirely separate. It's a fallacy to talk about evolution vs. creationism as if they were two varieties of belief. One is a belief. The other is science.

[Ovisterra]

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Of course not. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that everyone gets to make up their own facts, since that's simply not true. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that all opinions are equal, since that's simply not true. Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that reality doesn't always conform to your personal beliefs. Your opinion of gravity won't change how it works, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that schools teach otherwise.

Everyone can make up their own facts, they just cease to be facts. I.e. people make up their own random stuff. Not only can they, but they do.

[Bottle]

Aaaaaaaand this is why we can't afford to waste time on religious indoctrination. We've got so many people walking around saying things like "evolution is a theory," parroting back the same (incorrect) talking points they've gotten from their (usually religious) social groups, and this is simply unacceptable for any country that wishes to be relevant in the modern age. There is no possible way to be a competitive force in terms of innovation and scientific progress if your population is still laboring under delusions like "evolution is a theory." It's like trying to engage in the Space Race while half your population believes that the Sun orbits the Earth.

To be technical, you can't really "prove" a theory.

And to be accurate, evolution isn't a theory. Evolution is a fact.

The theory is about HOW and WHY evolution occurs, not whether evolution occurs.

Seriously, I think this thread is proving again and again that we need to invest more in SCIENCE education. It's absolutely horrifying to see the level of ignorance among the general public on this subject.

[Deus in Machina]

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Not particularly.

I mean, I don't insist that students be taught every system of D&D, from Chainmail to D&D 4th Edition, in order for them to decide which one, if any, they want to play. Although maybe we should...bitches always be talkin' like 4th Edition is evil, pretending it 'used to be better', but if they knew how much of a headache THAC0 and the 2nd Edition rules are they wouldn't be so critical...

It did used to be better. And before that, it used to be worse. 4th Edition sucks. 2nd Edition sucked worse. I don't see where the conflict is.

[EnragedMaldivians]

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Of course not. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that everyone gets to make up their own facts, since that's simply not true. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that all opinions are equal, since that's simply not true. Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that reality doesn't always conform to your personal beliefs. Your opinion of gravity won't change how it works, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that schools teach otherwise.

I feel sorry for you scientists having to explain yourselves over and over again - while addressing points that have been soundly rebutted ad nauseum.

I suppose it's the same feeling when an Economist stumbles upon a stubborn Austrian.

I'm going to stick with International Relations - though even that can be frustrating at times.

[Flameswroth]

Not particularly.

I mean, I don't insist that students be taught every system of D&D, from Chainmail to D&D 4th Edition, in order for them to decide which one, if any, they want to play. Although maybe we should...bitches always be talkin' like 4th Edition is evil, pretending it 'used to be better', but if they knew how much of a headache THAC0 and the 2nd Edition rules are they wouldn't be so critical...

It did used to be better. And before that, it used to be worse. 4th Edition sucks. 2nd Edition sucked worse. I don't see where the conflict is.

You believe whatever you want, brah. It's a free country. Just keep that 3.x - loving dogma out of our skewlz!

[Gudbai]

Yet another glowing example of why theology doesn't belong in schools; I think teaching correct punctuation, not to mention basic logical reasoning, should take priority. School is about preparing students to function as independent adults, after all.

If you wAnt kids to be individual adults, wouldn't you expose them to all the avenues of belief so that they can decide for themselves, instead of shoving only evolution in their brains?

Belief is a choice and should really be independent study, not public education. Consider this: the majority of content taught in schools is not mutually exclusive. Teachers are concerned with teaching the singular truths our societies have derived through years of searching. Religion, religion is not clearcut. There's no proven answers and there are MANY mutually exclusive beliefs. Most discussion boils down to lengthy debates, which consume a lot of time. The simple act of TRYING to comprehensively teach religion would require too much time and money to teach universally. For that reason alone religion should be left to independent study, besides the fact that 90% of what we learn in schools is foundation for further education, religion is foundation for spiritual enlightenment, not our school systems, thus it should be taught in places of worship unless you intended to internalize all religious study and practice ever into a single school system (completely impractical).

Frankly, if you think broader religious study is important, perhaps you should propose such at your place of worship. It can often be enlightening to examine other religions to reflect on you own and a broader understanding of other cultures is always helpful.

[Bottle]

Of course not. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that everyone gets to make up their own facts, since that's simply not true. There's nothing "adult" about teaching kids that all opinions are equal, since that's simply not true. Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that reality doesn't always conform to your personal beliefs. Your opinion of gravity won't change how it works, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that schools teach otherwise.

I feel sorry for you scientists having to explain yourselves over and over again - while addressing points that have been soundly rebutted ad nauseum.

I suppose it's the same feeling when an Economist stumbles upon a stubborn Austrian.

I don't mind explaining things over and over. What I mind is the rudeness of people who suggest that random ideas which are supported by precisely nothing should be given the same weight and respect as ideas which have been tested, examined, and studied extensively by tens of thousands of researchers. To me, that is the same as a kid who refuses to do any homework but then whines when he isn't given an A. I am offended by the idea that we should teach kids that they can sit around having opinions and refusing to do any work at all, and still get the same credit as a student who worked very hard and produced something interesting.

[Ovisterra]

It did used to be better. And before that, it used to be worse. 4th Edition sucks. 2nd Edition sucked worse. I don't see where the conflict is.

You believe whatever you want, brah. It's a free country. Just keep that 3.x - loving dogma out of our skewlz!

Free country? Not even slightly, but that's another thread.

[Deus in Machina]

It did used to be better. And before that, it used to be worse. 4th Edition sucks. 2nd Edition sucked worse. I don't see where the conflict is.

You believe whatever you want, brah. It's a free country. Just keep that 3.x - loving dogma out of our skewlz!

As if I have enough time in my classes to teach any particular edition. They give me three minutes a week to explain D&D to the kids and I ain't gonna waste it on factional bull honkey.

[The Archregimancy]

Arch.....Why you not gives proposal ???Or their position is against some members?
Your position is the most irrelevant.Because anybody knows your viewpoint.......

Am I the only person really confused by this?

[Ovisterra]

Arch.....Why you not gives proposal ???Or their position is against some members?
Your position is the most irrelevant.Because anybody knows your viewpoint.......

Am I the only person really confused by this?

No. I am currently scratching my head.

[Gudbai]

*raises hand nervously* But Ms. Bottle, we're not in a class...

Exactly...we're on a forum, so people who want to debate God can make a thread about it (or join one of the dozens that are already on the forum).

The attempt to hijack this thread is showing exactly why we shouldn't allow such topics in schools. There's always going to be a religious person who feels compelled to disrupt productive discussions about factual subjects (in this case, the issue of curriculum) onto their personal superstitious talking points and onto endless empty "debates" about whether their God exists or not. And there will always be atheists and non-believers and people of minority religions who rise to the bait and get sucked into these useless spirals of "Yeah-huh there is a Gawd!" "Nuh-uh, is not!!" Fine for internet silliness, but irrelevant and unacceptable for school hours.

Maybe we should teach the common logical arguments that point out that it's really impossible to prove either way, so it's pretty much moot to discuss it with any authority. You can't prove any gods exist or that they don't, so make up your own mind on your own (because you're the only one your choice really matters to) and get on with it.

[Bottle]

Exactly...we're on a forum, so people who want to debate God can make a thread about it (or join one of the dozens that are already on the forum).

The attempt to hijack this thread is showing exactly why we shouldn't allow such topics in schools. There's always going to be a religious person who feels compelled to disrupt productive discussions about factual subjects (in this case, the issue of curriculum) onto their personal superstitious talking points and onto endless empty "debates" about whether their God exists or not. And there will always be atheists and non-believers and people of minority religions who rise to the bait and get sucked into these useless spirals of "Yeah-huh there is a Gawd!" "Nuh-uh, is not!!" Fine for internet silliness, but irrelevant and unacceptable for school hours.

Maybe we should teach the common logical arguments that point out that it's really impossible to prove either way, so it's pretty much moot to discuss it with any authority. You can't prove any gods exist or that they don't, so make up your own mind on your own (because you're the only one your choice really matters to) and get on with it.

I don't think this subject needs to be covered until college, frankly. If there are students who are excelling in their other coursework and they have time for electives, then sure, I have no problem offering debate, logic, ethics, or even comparative cultures options. Nothing wrong with that. But these should be elective options, and should be of much lower priority than maths, language studies, science, music, physical education, literature, civics, and other core subjects.

[Deus in Machina]

Arch.....Why you not gives proposal ???Or their position is against some members?
Your position is the most irrelevant.Because anybody knows your viewpoint.......

Am I the only person really confused by this?

He's not a native English speaker and didn't understand what you were saying to him. He thought you meant his opinion was irrelevant and he rebutted by pointing out that you didn't even voice an opinion, so it is you who is irrelevant, so there! I explained what you meant by TGs and I'm 60% sure he understood.

[MaziChino]

The place where I live, Waynesboro VA -- Approximately an hours drive west from Charlottesville VA -- Is a small community of ~20000 people.

Here people complain about the kids not getting a good enough education, as most parents in the US complain. But we have a program where they take the kids out of school and bus them off the school property to what is called Weekday Religious Education during the school day!

Bear in mind that this happens when the kids should be studying real subjects. Also consider that I call this place the buckle of the bible belt. Kind of a strange place for a pagan to be living isn't it?

Jim

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Maybe we should teach the common logical arguments that point out that it's really impossible to prove either way, so it's pretty much moot to discuss it with any authority. You can't prove any gods exist or that they don't, so make up your own mind on your own (because you're the only one your choice really matters to) and get on with it.

I don't think this subject needs to be covered until college, frankly. If there are students who are excelling in their other coursework and they have time for electives, then sure, I have no problem offering debate, logic, ethics, or even comparative cultures options. Nothing wrong with that. But these should be elective options, and should be of much lower priority than maths, language studies, science, music, physical education, literature, civics, and other core subjects.

Except that religion is an intrinsic part of civics and history. You can't separate them and have a meanigful understanding of the events.

[Gudbai]

To be technical, you can't really "prove" a theory. All you can do is reinforce it over time and testing. The theory of evolution is still a "theory" (though it may be considered a law or rule by this point, technically). However, regardless of that, at this point it's had sufficient time and testing that it's an operable foundation on which education should be built. Even if you don't personally believe it, it needs to be taught, it needs to be learned and understood if only for reference in further education.

Being dismissive of religious beliefs is about as self-destructive as being dismissive of scientific findings. Teach what is necessary to everyone, teach what you believe amongst those who share your faith, but disregard neither common knowledge nor personal beliefs or quite simply we're all being ignorant and foolhardy.

^this

I'm a pretty hard core Christian, and yet I score first in my science class, and am currently reading a 500 page book on the history and workings of the universe (the ones with more scientific backing, before you say anything). Religious belief should not and will not (if done right) interfere with science. The two can live in harmony.

Religious types can believe the widely accepted history of the universe except with god inserted into all the bits we're unsure of (like what it was like before the big bang and everything about particle physics), and others can simple accept that there is a logical explanation just waiting to be discovered.

Jeez lads. No need to fight. Learn to accept others.

Thank you, yes. You're exactly the kind of religious person I respect and admire. I myself can't find the faith to believe much more than there are things in this world we don't yet understand and for all we know some of that could be related to some higher being, but I admire those who can have faith and conviction without belligerence or judgementalism. Both of which are all too often practiced by extremists at both ends of these religious debates.

The only thing we cannot do is continue to mandate what others should believe.

[Flameswroth]

You believe whatever you want, brah. It's a free country. Just keep that 3.x - loving dogma out of our skewlz!

As if I have enough time in my classes to teach any particular edition. They give me three minutes a week to explain D&D to the kids and I ain't gonna waste it on factional bull honkey.

Just three minutes? Forsooth! That's barely enough time to explain how concealment works!

You know this makes me realize something - if D&D were a religion, it'd probably be the most revised of all time. You think the Catholics nixing Purgatory was bad? Imagine the myriad new player classes that come out in Player's Manual after Player's Manual, let alone the errata during the interim!

[Tomland Republic]

I think that religious education should be taught at schools as children need to gain a wide knowledge of different faiths (or alternatives) as possible so that they are able to be open and understanding towards other people. Also they will be able to apply religious teachings to ethical topics.