Good police work or invasion of privacy... Or?

[Rentusera]

There are many reasons why one might not wish to give one's DNA to the police. One may not be guilty of the crime being investigated, but guilty of something else. One might quite rationally fear police misconduct or testing errors. One may simply value one's privacy. Etc, etc, etc. These are pretty basic values of the American criminal justice system.

Thank God I'm not from that silly country, then.

[Samuraikoku]

You may be an attorney, but your thinking is deeply flawed.

Refusal to give a DNA sample cannot "generate[] a presumption against you." It may be a factor in creating reasonable suspicion or probable cause, but nothing more. And anything more would be wrong and contrary to the whole point of the 4th Amendment and the 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination.

There are many reasons why one might not wish to give one's DNA to the police. One may not be guilty of the crime being investigated, but guilty of something else. One might quite rationally fear police misconduct or testing errors. One may simply value one's privacy. Etc, etc, etc. These are pretty basic values of the American criminal justice system.

I'm not American, that explains it. LOL

But I can give arguments against most of what you said.

- One may not be guilty of the crime being investigated, but guilty of something else: - Irrelevant to the case at hand, you wouldn't be put on trial for that.

- One might quite rationally fear police misconduct or testing errors: Not if the proper measures are taken. This is just a matter of human behavior instead of law itself.

- One may simply value one's privacy. Yes, but no rights are absolute, much less when trying to investigate a criminal offence.

In real life I come from Argentina, and that is the way we go. We have similarities with the American justice system, but we have mostly European traits.

[The Cat-Tribe]

There are many reasons why one might not wish to give one's DNA to the police. One may not be guilty of the crime being investigated, but guilty of something else. One might quite rationally fear police misconduct or testing errors. One may simply value one's privacy. Etc, etc, etc. These are pretty basic values of the American criminal justice system.

Thank God I'm not from that silly country, then.

I don't know what country you are from, but the concepts are pretty universal -- and should be. Presumption of innocence, privacy, right against self-incrimination, etc., are basic human values.

I'm sad you think everyone should be obligated to cooperate with police investigations.

[Lacadaemon]

Am I the only one who is bothered that the phone company has lo-jacked everyone on behalf of the police then?

[Rentusera]

Thank God I'm not from that silly country, then.

I don't know what country you are from, but the concepts are pretty universal -- and should be. Presumption of innocence, privacy, right against self-incrimination, etc., are basic human values.

I'm sad you think everyone should be obligated to cooperate with police investigations.

A Singaporean is hardly the best person to ask.

[Sibirsky]

Am I the only one who is bothered that the phone company has lo-jacked everyone on behalf of the police then?

No. If the police had a court order I wouldn't mind. However, having a phone turned on in a certain location, at a certain time is not sufficient IMO.

[Samuraikoku]

I don't know what country you are from, but the concepts are pretty universal -- and should be. Presumption of innocence, privacy, right against self-incrimination, etc., are basic human values.

I'm sad you think everyone should be obligated to cooperate with police investigations.

I don't see how providing DNA material to the police in an investigation that you're caught in (it's a completely different story if you were called out of nowhere) violates presumption of innocence or self-incrimination. You are innocent until the judge convicts you, and refusal of providing evidence clearly formulates an argument against you. It might not hold weight by itself, but complete with other evidence it will make a case. And as for privacy, this is a crime investigation that you're a part of - if of course you're a part of it for a valid reason, so it doesn't apply here.

[Laerod]

You are innocent until the judge convicts you, and refusal of providing evidence clearly formulates an argument against you.

Not sure about the rest of the world, but as far as German law is concerned, no it doesn't.

[Samuraikoku]

Not sure about the rest of the world, but as far as German law is concerned, no it doesn't.

You may be making a parallel with the refusal to testify, but this is about refusal to provide evidence, which constitutes a crime. It's like a police raid with a written order of a judge, is it really a violation of privacy if the judge ordered it to find evidence?

[Lacadaemon]

Am I the only one who is bothered that the phone company has lo-jacked everyone on behalf of the police then?

No. If the police had a court order I wouldn't mind. However, having a phone turned on in a certain location, at a certain time is not sufficient IMO.

I'm not enamored with the idea that the police can data mine like that. Surely they really ought to have a warrant for each individual, though I suppose it depends upon what sort of agreement the phone company has with its customers too.

[Sibirsky]

No. If the police had a court order I wouldn't mind. However, having a phone turned on in a certain location, at a certain time is not sufficient IMO.

I'm not enamored with the idea that the police can data mine like that. Surely they really ought to have a warrant for each individual, though I suppose it depends upon what sort of agreement the phone company has with its customers too.

I would expect a warrant. Or 100 of them in this case. However, being in a certain location at a certain time is not sufficient IMO.

[Laerod]

Not sure about the rest of the world, but as far as German law is concerned, no it doesn't.

You may be making a parallel with the refusal to testify, but this is about refusal to provide evidence, which constitutes a crime. It's like a police raid with a written order of a judge, is it really a violation of privacy if the judge ordered it to find evidence?

No, if its an entirely voluntary thing then it definitely isn't like a police raid. It would be akin to cops asking whether they can come in when they knock on your door. You don't have to let them in if they don't have a warrant and not letting them in is not an admission of guilt.

[Samuraikoku]

No, if its an entirely voluntary thing then it definitely isn't like a police raid. It would be akin to cops asking whether they can come in when they knock on your door. You don't have to let them in if they don't have a warrant and not letting them in is not an admission of guilt.

That is true. And even if you do let them in, they can't do anything with the results of that raid since it was illegal, even though consented.

[Lacadaemon]

I would expect a warrant. Or 100 of them in this case. However, being in a certain location at a certain time is not sufficient IMO.

Well I'd guess they couldn't get a warrant for each individual ahead of time, because until they get the records they don't know who it's going to be. And I'm not sure on what basis they could get a general warrant to look at an undetermined number of people's phone records to determine who is in what location at what time.

Though like I said, if the phone company's agreement informs you ahead of time that it's their policy to turn records en masse over to the police, I suppose I have less of a problem.

[Sibirsky]

I would expect a warrant. Or 100 of them in this case. However, being in a certain location at a certain time is not sufficient IMO.

Well I'd guess they couldn't get a warrant for each individual ahead of time, because until they get the records they don't know who it's going to be. And I'm not sure on what basis they could get a general warrant to look at an undetermined number of people's phone records to determine who is in what location at what time.

Though like I said, if the phone company's agreement informs you ahead of time that it's their policy to turn records en masse over to the police, I suppose I have less of a problem.

Yeah that makes sense. Other than the fact that nobody reads the fine print.

EDIT: Which isn't the phone company's fault.

[Lacadaemon]

Yeah that makes sense. Other than the fact that nobody reads the fine print.

Yeah, I don't read it either. But if it was there and then this happened to me, I'd accept that I can't really complain about it. It's not like anyone stopped me from reading the fine print or told me not to.

(Now I'm all paranoid that my car's GPS is sending messages about its location to ppl).

[Sibirsky]

Yeah that makes sense. Other than the fact that nobody reads the fine print.

Yeah, I don't read it either. But if it was there and then this happened to me, I'd accept that I can't really complain about it. It's not like anyone stopped me from reading the fine print or told me not to.

(Now I'm all paranoid that my car's GPS is sending messages about its location to ppl).

Lawl. I'm sure it isn't. Your phone however, especially if it's one of the newer smartphones, just might be.

[Lacadaemon]

Lawl. I'm sure it isn't. Your phone however, especially if it's one of the newer smartphones, just might be.

Yeah, it probably isn't. But it has that traffic management stuff, so it does talk to XM I guess. (In other words there is the remote possibility, and since I am bone idle I will just wonder about the whole thing in a slightly paranoid fashion instead of finding out).

The phones I know about. I have the location thing turned off.

Edit: And onstar, and the like, which some people have does track the vehicle.

[Sibirsky]

This reminds me of this stand up act I vaguely remember hearing on the radio.

Something along the lines of...
Facebook was really started by the government. No warrants, no court orders. We just post our information. Address? Well, that's a little weird, but ok. Name, e-mail, phone number? Here! Post a picture of everyone I know? Sure!

[Dyakovo]

This reminds me of this stand up act I vaguely remember hearing on the radio.

Something along the lines of...
Facebook was really started by the government. No warrants, no court orders. We just post our information. Address? Well, that's a little weird, but ok. Name, e-mail, phone number? Here! Post a picture of everyone I know? Sure!

Way off topic, but I find it amusing that if you do a google image search for "Sibirsky" you get...

[Fartsniffage]

This reminds me of this stand up act I vaguely remember hearing on the radio.

Something along the lines of...
Facebook was really started by the government. No warrants, no court orders. We just post our information. Address? Well, that's a little weird, but ok. Name, e-mail, phone number? Here! Post a picture of everyone I know? Sure!

Way off topic, but I find it amusing that if you do a google image search for "Sibirsky" you get...

Man, now I'm likely to get an erection every time I talk to Sibirsky.

[Sibirsky]

Way off topic, but I find it amusing that if you do a google image search for "Sibirsky" you get...

(Image)

Man, now I'm likely to get an erection every time I talk to Sibirsky.

That's not me. I'm hoping I'm not related to her because... well I'm thinking of the various things i would do to her.

EDIT: The only reason it comes up is because I posted it in a thread. Which means we're not related. Phew!

[The Chaos Heart]

...It's a simple DNA test.

...it's for the good of the people. Catching a criminal.

It doesn't adversely affect you...why give a fuck?

[Kobeanare]

No, if its an entirely voluntary thing then it definitely isn't like a police raid. It would be akin to cops asking whether they can come in when they knock on your door. You don't have to let them in if they don't have a warrant and not letting them in is not an admission of guilt.

That is true. And even if you do let them in, they can't do anything with the results of that raid since it was illegal, even though consented.

Uh...what? If you consent to a search, no warrant is necessary and the police can use whatever evidence they find.

[Free Irish Lands]

I would volunteer my DNA. Anything else would need a search warrant.