Offensive Flags Debate

[-The West Coast-]

Iron cross =/= Nazi.

Yeah, but there are specifically, blatantly Nazi flags that use an iron cross in place of a swastika.

Doesn't make it a Nazi symbol.

[Potarius]

No, it isn't.

Perhaps not to you, but to someone who has been educated on the gulag system by survivors of it...

And the United States instituted mass slavery and lynch mobs were rampant during a period of its history. That does not make it the modus operandi of the United States government, nor did it make it the modus operandi even a year after emancipation.

Your point being...?

[Wolny Kraj]

The hammer and sickle should absolutely NOT be regarded as the same as the swastika. The swastika represents a political ideology that encourages mass killing. Communism is NOTHING about killing people. It has been misinterpreted by one person, which seems to have ruined the entire conception of the ideology. If we're going by body count, the US has committed its fair share of genocides and racism.

We have committed genocide??

Absolutely. We killed a good many native americans and blacks, as well as political prisoners during the Cold War, and now we torture and kill "suspected terrorists"

[Daetropia]

The Hammer and Sickle is the symbol of the Communist party, not the USSR. Yes, it was on it's flag, but that's because it claimed to be Communist.

[NERVUN]

I'd venture to say that most flags mean genocide to someone. Native Americans might think that with the American flag, a shitload of people in Africa who suffered under colonialism might think that with the various flags of Europe. Maybe some people in China would still be bitter over the flag of Japan. Maybe some Palestinians would think that with the flag of Israel.

My opinion on the swastika is that it's fine to ban the Nazi swastika, but other types shouldn't be banned. The Nazi swastika is distinct because it is both reversed and tilted, which had a lot to do with the retarded occult beliefs of the Nazis.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pfAonmdJaMU/TFFVE9zdNoI/AAAAAAAAAYE/TLSM0qeiwyY/s1600/Swastika1-hbari

This on the other hand, I don't think people would generally associate with Nazis.

I wish that was true, but it is not.

[Esoterias]

Yep. Did anyone bring cards?

I brought a funny comic.
http://satwcomic.com/king-europe

Your comic just earned you +50 respect

[The Floridian Coast]

I'd venture to say that most flags mean genocide to someone. Native Americans might think that with the American flag, a shitload of people in Africa who suffered under colonialism might think that with the various flags of Europe. Maybe some people in China would still be bitter over the flag of Japan. Maybe some Palestinians would think that with the flag of Israel.

My opinion on the swastika is that it's fine to ban the Nazi swastika, but other types shouldn't be banned. The Nazi swastika is distinct because it is both reversed and tilted, which had a lot to do with the retarded occult beliefs of the Nazis.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pfAonmdJaMU/TFFVE9zdNoI/AAAAAAAAAYE/TLSM0qeiwyY/s1600/Swastika1-hbari

This on the other hand, I don't think people would generally associate with Nazis.

I wish that was true, but it is not.

Also, just out of curiosity, I don't want to do this or anything, but would you let someone have a flag with al-Queda written on it in Arabic?

[Imperium Neo Roma]

I wish that was true, but it is not.

Also, just out of curiosity, I don't want to do this or anything, but would you let someone have a flag with al-Queda written on it in Arabic?

I don't think I've ever seen that in the rules, or ever mentioned. Deserves to be banned though.

[Ratka]

A hammer and sickle is automatically associated with Stalin's death farms

No, it isn't.

That's true, the hammer and sickle represents the workers' party.

[NERVUN]

I wish that was true, but it is not.

Also, just out of curiosity, I don't want to do this or anything, but would you let someone have a flag with al-Queda written on it in Arabic?

Probably, depending on the nation and what it was doing with it. The bulk of the players wouldn't 'get' the symbol.

[Norstal]

We have committed genocide??

Absolutely. We killed a good many native americans and blacks, as well as political prisoners during the Cold War, and now we torture and kill "suspected terrorists"

I'm pretty sure the government never endorsed the systematic elimination of Indians and blacks. The removal of Indians to other places, maybe. Enslaving the blacks != killing the blacks.

[Esoterias]

We have committed genocide??

Absolutely. We killed a good many native americans and blacks, as well as political prisoners during the Cold War, and now we torture and kill "suspected terrorists"

Same wrong-doings, different flag. That's all it is.

[Wolny Kraj]

A swastika is automatically associated with Hitler's death farms, oppressive racial superiority and WWII. The Hammer and Sickle is associated with the USSR.

Which one sounds like it should be banned from this site?

A hammer and sickle is automatically associated with Stalin's death farms, oppressive ideological superiority, and the Cold War. The Swastika may be associated with bad things, but what I'm saying is it's not the only one.

Automatically associated, eh? Well I've never thought of death when I see a hammer sickle. How about the crossed hammer sickle for christian communism? Should Jesus be banned too?

[Choseon-Goryeo]

This is a hard thing to say... For some, like my father, the swastika is a symbol of peace and unity (buddhism), for others it is a symbol of hate and violence (Nazism). Same goes for the Hammer and Sickle - some view it as just a symbol of Communism, others view it as a symbol of violence and hate.
I think all symbols should be allowed - simply because people will be offended by mostly anything!
For Example: A Jucheist may be offended by my flag because it is the old Imperial Korean Flag: Does that mean I should not use it? Of course not.

[Malshan]

A note before I begin: if this belongs in Moderation, then I apologize for the mistake.

I can't understand why the hammer and sickle aren't banned. I know that in the site rules it says that they aren't associated with mass genocide, but I disagree. I not only associate it with genocide, I feel very offended by the constant use of this symbol in flags. I am a German-American, and I have relatives who were imprisoned and killed in the Soviet prison camps during and after the second world war. They were not Nazis, and they were not in any way involved in or aware of the Holocaust, which I believe is also wrong. Therefore, I would like to open a discussion on whether malicious uses of the hammer and sickle should be banned.

While we are on this topic, however, I would also like to bring up the idea that no symbol is without its good and bad connotations, and regardless of what they have connected with them, if they are not used with malicious intent, they should not be banned. When I say malicious intent, I mean creating a carbon copy of Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR, and using the flag with it in a way that is hateful towards the victims of those regimes.

So, NSG, what are your opinions on either of those topics? Am I completely right? Am I overstepping my bounds here by asking these questions? Am I a raving loon? Discus.

I'm a german-American as well. Second generation. I think that the use of this, while reprehensible, is okay. As long as they don't start spouting Russian crap about concentration camps, I'm fine with it.

[Denecaep]

Seriously, if we are going to ban ANYTHING that might have a negative connotation to ANYONE...

We'll be banning...

All kidding aside, anything will always offend SOMEONE.

[Quirina]

"All symbols should be 100% free to use, regardless of connotation."

This is a free world, past has past, and everything must not be taken with meanings and definitions. Like a dog pooping, is that something we must be offended of? It's nature and we can't contradict it.

[NERVUN]

This is a hard thing to say... For some, like my father, the swastika is a symbol of peace and unity (buddhism), for others it is a symbol of hate and violence (Nazism). Same goes for the Hammer and Sickle - some view it as just a symbol of Communism, others view it as a symbol of violence and hate.
I think all symbols should be allowed - simply because people will be offended by mostly anything!
For Example: A Jucheist may be offended by my flag because it is the old Imperial Korean Flag: Does that mean I should not use it? Of course not.

Alas, it would nice if they were JUST offended, but they are not. They tend to start to target said nations using a swastika.

And it would be nice if all nations using one JUST were RPing, but that too was not the case. We had many actual Neo-Nazis using them to harass other nations/regions not to mention try to use NS to recruit.

[The Imperial Shard]

The Soviet Union didn't round up and attempt to completely wipe out an entire ethnicity of people, nor were they bent on doing the same for anyone who was different than their "ideal".

Nice try, though.

What, so everyone else Stalin rounded up, exiled, killed, executed, deported, starved, is okay as long as it wasn't in the name of "racism" or "anyone who was different than their ideal"? Come on. The Soviets oppressed a fair amount of people - Jews included.

The hammer and sickle was the symbol of a dream yet to be realised.

The swastika is/was a symbol used in Buddhism and Hinduism.

Both have been soiled by horrible actions. I don't see why we should ban one just because the underlying motives were different, it doesn't excuse the countless deaths associated with each symbol. Either let them both be allowed, or ban both. I don't see how it's fair to excuse the atrocities of one because of it's motive, and not the other.

[Esoterias]

Seriously, if we are going to ban ANYTHING that might have a negative connotation to ANYONE...

We'll be banning...

(Image)

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All kidding aside, anything will always offend SOMEONE.

I am a member with the Capitalist Federation of Welch's Juice, and I'm offended.

[Hellsgrind]

Both have been soiled by horrible actions. I don't see why we should ban one just because the underlying motives were different, it doesn't excuse the countless deaths associated with each symbol. Either let them both be allowed, or ban both. I don't see how it's fair to excuse the atrocities of one because of it's motive, and not the other.

Because if you approve one then you loose a number of your userbase, and if you want to take that issue up with Germany, go ahead and do it, because we're not having it.

[Neo Arcad]

"All symbols should be 100% free to use, regardless of connotation."

This is a free world, past has past, and everything must not be taken with meanings and definitions. Like a dog pooping, is that something we must be offended of? It's nature and we can't contradict it.

I don't consider genocide natural.
Maybe that's just me, but I say it's UNnatural.

[FreeLaannds]

As a Orthodox Stalinist (I follow Stalin's Form of Communism strictly) I believe that the Swastika Should not be banned, nor should the hammer and sickle IF you actually follow the politics. In other words: if you do not really support the Nazi Regime do not make a mock nation using a swasitka flag. But if you do: Then who is to say "we don't allow you to show your real politics, because someone may be offended". The same goes for Communism.
People get offended because I support a gulag system, I support The Leader Stalin, people get offended because I believe the USSR during stalin was the best country around - and all I have to say is: Get over yourself. We are all human beings, we are different. Someone of us have different beliefs, and limiting those beliefs is a horrible thing. Allow people to show who they are!

[-The West Coast-]

~ Snip ~

Well, you can deal with it. It's Max Barry's site, so it's his rules.

[Imperium Neo Roma]

As a Orthodox Stalinist (I follow Stalin's Form of Communism strictly) I believe that the Swastika Should not be banned, nor should the hammer and sickle IF you actually follow the politics. In other words: if you do not really support the Nazi Regime do not make a mock nation using a swasitka flag. But if you do: Then who is to say "we don't allow you to show your real politics, because someone may be offended". The same goes for Communism.
People get offended because I support a gulag system, I support The Leader Stalin, people get offended because I believe the USSR during stalin was the best country around - and all I have to say is: Get over yourself. We are all human beings, we are different. Someone of us have different beliefs, and limiting those beliefs is a horrible thing. Allow people to show who they are!

Wait, so I I really don't want to bring back The Roman Empire, having the society split into Plebs and Patricians, I can't have the symbol of the SPQR?

And Someone who doesn't want to bring back the CSA, but thinks its interesting enough to R.P it, can't do so?

Seems stupid to me.