Offensive Flags Debate

[Dododecapod]

I've met Native Americans who call them selves Indians. In fact, they consider the term "Native American" to be offensive...

That's sad. They've been corrupted by racial stereotyping. Anyway, let them be called whatever they like, however wrong it may be.

And what, you know better? Way to go with picking up the white man's burden there.

[New Embossia]

Which is incorrect.

Indians come from India

Native Americans come from, you guessed it, America.

I have no idea how Indians came to be mixed with Native Americans.

Goes back to Columbus. He and his men thought they had found a way around to the Indies, thus "indians". It stuck. Some people prefer it, others loathe it.

But now I think people prefer "American Indian" or "Asian Indian"

[-The West Coast-]

Goes back to Columbus. He and his men thought they had found a way around to the Indies, thus "indians". It stuck. Some people prefer it, others loathe it.

But now I think people prefer "American Indian" or "Asian Indian"

I do believe you're thinking wrong. Unless you can provide a source.

[New Embossia]

But now I think people prefer "American Indian" or "Asian Indian"

I do believe you're thinking wrong. Unless you can provide a source.

I can't provide an online source. Wow, people are addicted to looking for the "source" for everything. I think NSG would be great in the movie "Source Code"

[Katganistan]

I say the middle finger should be allowed.

"Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger, it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future.

This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew." Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French."

It has historic context.

It so does not. That's merely an urban legend.

Etymology of the word fuck. Notice it has nothing to do with pluck, and comes from German.

[Imperium Neo Roma]

I say the middle finger should be allowed.

"Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger, it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future.

This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew." Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French."

It has historic context.

It so does not. That's merely an urban legend.

Etymology of the word fuck. Notice it has nothing to do with pluck, and comes from German.

You shot that rumor down, nicely done.

[Katganistan]

Yes, it rather does.

What if he's being disrputive to the debate? Can't I ask him nicely rather than report him? I know he wasn't, but if he had become rowdier...

He's not being disruptive to the debate, and the reason we do not have thread ownership in the General forum, which is the debate forum, is to prevent people from silencing debate points they'd rather not deal with.

[Katganistan]

I do believe you're thinking wrong. Unless you can provide a source.

I can't provide an online source. Wow, people are addicted to looking for the "source" for everything. I think NSG would be great in the movie "Source Code"

It's good to prove you're not just MSU.

[The Imperial Shard]

And? The Soviets killed far more than that. Far, far more.

Uh, no, they didn't.

You know, it doesn't matter how many times I go through this, but people always seem to side with the Nazis for some reason. Yes, arguing over who killed more isn't the greatest way to pass time, but the cold reality is that the Nazis were responsible for more deaths than the Soviets.

The Holodomor at highest estimates stands at less than 13,000,000. Stalin's purges amount to 2 million at the highest estimates. GULag casualties amount to about 1 million. Lenin's famine amounts to around 5 million. 21,000,000 rough estimate. That's still less than 27,000,000 killed in the name of cleansing the world of the "untermensch", not even counting the millions killed in the Holocaust.

Now, unless you people are lumping Mao and Pol Pot together with the Soviets, there's a big discrepancy there... Oh, and by the way, the Wikipedia article(s) on this subject are extensively sourced, so be my guest to look for yourselves.

No offence, but your stats are laughable. But think what you want.

However, I'll leave you with this:

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

I don't really care how "credible" the URL is, but take a look.

[-The West Coast-]

That's sad. They've been corrupted by racial stereotyping. Anyway, let them be called whatever they like, however wrong it may be.

And what, you know better? Way to go with picking up the white man's burden there.

I don't recall saying I know better. Where'd you get that from mac?

[Potarius]

Uh, no, they didn't.

You know, it doesn't matter how many times I go through this, but people always seem to side with the Nazis for some reason. Yes, arguing over who killed more isn't the greatest way to pass time, but the cold reality is that the Nazis were responsible for more deaths than the Soviets.

The Holodomor at highest estimates stands at less than 13,000,000. Stalin's purges amount to 2 million at the highest estimates. GULag casualties amount to about 1 million. Lenin's famine amounts to around 5 million. 21,000,000 rough estimate. That's still less than 27,000,000 killed in the name of cleansing the world of the "untermensch", not even counting the millions killed in the Holocaust.

Now, unless you people are lumping Mao and Pol Pot together with the Soviets, there's a big discrepancy there... Oh, and by the way, the Wikipedia article(s) on this subject are extensively sourced, so be my guest to look for yourselves.

No offence, but your stats are laughable. But think what you want.

However, I'll leave you with this:

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

I don't really care how "credible" the URL is, but take a look.

Interesting, because the demographics don't even come close to matching those ridiculous numbers. What, did people die twice? Three times? Five times?

[The Imperial Shard]

No offence, but your stats are laughable. But think what you want.

However, I'll leave you with this:

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

I don't really care how "credible" the URL is, but take a look.

Interesting, because the demographics don't even come close to matching those ridiculous numbers. What, did people die twice? Three times? Five times?

Like I said, think whatever you want. It's no consequence to me. But I'd trust historians over your facts any day. Sorry.

[Dododecapod]

And what, you know better? Way to go with picking up the white man's burden there.

I don't recall saying I know better. Where'd you get that from mac?

The bolded. It's highly pretentious and patriarchal - "Oh, those poor people, we must educate them in how they are wrong."
I don't really think you're racist. But you're falling into a superiority trap there, and I wanted to point that out.

[Wiztopia]

I assume the swastika is only banned because Max Barry is Jewish.

[Potarius]

Interesting, because the demographics don't even come close to matching those ridiculous numbers. What, did people die twice? Three times? Five times?

Like I said, think whatever you want. It's no consequence to me. But I'd trust historians over your facts any day. Sorry.

Wikipedia articles. Sourced. Extensively.

Holodomor
Famine of 1921
GULag
Stalin's Great Purge
WWII Casualties

So, I was a bit off. Looks like I overestimated in most cases.

[South Norwega]

No offence, but your stats are laughable. But think what you want.

However, I'll leave you with this:

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

I don't really care how "credible" the URL is, but take a look.

Interesting, because the demographics don't even come close to matching those ridiculous numbers. What, did people die twice? Three times? Five times?

A whole load of anti-Communists have a bizarre fetish for proving Stalin worse than Hitler. Which eventually leads them to strange theories on the origins of World War II.

[Imperium Neo Roma]

I assume the swastika is only banned because Max Barry is Jewish.

I've never heard that one before.

But no, that's definitively not the reason.

[Potarius]

Interesting, because the demographics don't even come close to matching those ridiculous numbers. What, did people die twice? Three times? Five times?

A whole load of anti-Communists have a bizarre fetish for proving Stalin worse than Hitler. Which eventually leads them to strange theories on the origins of World War II.

And the batshit-fuck-ass-bizarre claims that somehow the Soviets either killed individual people multiple times, or pulled people out of thin air to kill 60,000,000 of their own citizens. Incidentally, many of these anti-Communists tend to be Nazi apologists, so yeah.

Now, if we want to talk about a country massacring its own people, look at China during The Great Leap Forward. That number actually almost does reach 60,000,000, if I'm not mistaken.

[Wiztopia]

I assume the swastika is only banned because Max Barry is Jewish.

I've never heard that one before.

But no, that's definitively not the reason.

Seems to be the only reason to ban a symbol of peace that was used by a bunch of assholes to mean something else.

[Imperium Neo Roma]

I've never heard that one before.

But no, that's definitively not the reason.

Seems to be the only reason to ban a symbol of peace that was used by a bunch of assholes to mean something else.

Well, when 10,000,000+ People are killed for their religion, and they happen to rape a symbol and use it as their own, that symbol of peace becomes a symbol of hatred. And seeing as the majority see that Swastika as a Nazi thing, and not a Hindu/Buddhist/whatever Symbol, it makes more sense to ban it for that reason to ban it because Max Barry is Jewish (Which, I've never heard of).

[South Norwega]

A whole load of anti-Communists have a bizarre fetish for proving Stalin worse than Hitler. Which eventually leads them to strange theories on the origins of World War II.

And the batshit-fuck-ass-bizarre claims that somehow the Soviets either killed individual people multiple times, or pulled people out of thin air to kill 60,000,000 of their own citizens. Incidentally, many of these anti-Communists tend to be Nazi apologists, so yeah.

Now, if we want to talk about a country massacring its own people, look at China during The Great Leap Forward. That number actually almost does reach 60,000,000, if I'm not mistaken.

It shows up on population growth rate graphs for the entire world.

Which means it's pretty damn big.

Apparently it's only between 20 and 45 million, with the official death toll being 14. It seems around up to 10 percent of these were murders by the state, with a fair number of suicides as well.

[Wiztopia]

Seems to be the only reason to ban a symbol of peace that was used by a bunch of assholes to mean something else.

Well, when 10,000,000+ People are killed for their religion, and they happen to rape a symbol and use it as their own, that symbol of peace becomes a symbol of hatred. And seeing as the majority see that Swastika as a Nazi thing, and not a Hindu/Buddhist/whatever Symbol, it makes more sense to ban it for that reason to ban it because Max Barry is Jewish (Which, I've never heard of).

He's never given an actual reason for banning it other than "because I can".

[Imperium Neo Roma]

Well, when 10,000,000+ People are killed for their religion, and they happen to rape a symbol and use it as their own, that symbol of peace becomes a symbol of hatred. And seeing as the majority see that Swastika as a Nazi thing, and not a Hindu/Buddhist/whatever Symbol, it makes more sense to ban it for that reason to ban it because Max Barry is Jewish (Which, I've never heard of).

He's never given an actual reason for banning it other than "because I can".

There was a giant thread a while back where Max posted a reason besides 'Because I can', that thread was a long time ago, I can't even dig it up. I remember it was long as hell, and if I'm right that [Violet]=Max, then he has given a reason.

[NERVUN]

Well, when 10,000,000+ People are killed for their religion, and they happen to rape a symbol and use it as their own, that symbol of peace becomes a symbol of hatred. And seeing as the majority see that Swastika as a Nazi thing, and not a Hindu/Buddhist/whatever Symbol, it makes more sense to ban it for that reason to ban it because Max Barry is Jewish (Which, I've never heard of).

He's never given an actual reason for banning it other than "because I can".

Oh? Really?.

Well, [violet] did, but that was after talking with Max.

[Katganistan]

Well, when 10,000,000+ People are killed for their religion, and they happen to rape a symbol and use it as their own, that symbol of peace becomes a symbol of hatred. And seeing as the majority see that Swastika as a Nazi thing, and not a Hindu/Buddhist/whatever Symbol, it makes more sense to ban it for that reason to ban it because Max Barry is Jewish (Which, I've never heard of).

He's never given an actual reason for banning it other than "because I can".

That's actually an out and out lie.

From the Acceptable Flag Policy:

viewtopic.php?p=2190733#p2190733

This has been the case from the beginning. However, I once answered a question about a three-pronged red and black flag by saying something like, "Only swastikas and swastika-like images are banned, not anything else," and the "anything else" was taken more literally than I intended. I apologize, particularly to the mods, for this confusion, and I'm sorry if it's lead to some inconsistent moderation.

To make life easier, here are some examples of what is and isn't acceptable. I expect there will be many borderline cases (there always are), but it's a simple principle. If a flag celebrates death, slavery, violence, or other not-nice things against real people, that's malicious, and will have the primary effect of offending....

....A swastika: not acceptable (Yes, it was used by Buddhists in the third Century, etc, etc, but that's not what it represents now. To the vast majority of people, the swastika represents the Holocaust. A nation with a swastika appears to be endorsing that event; that's malicious and has the primary effect of offending.)....

....The iron cross: my feeling is it's usually okay, because I don't think most people even recognize it. But if the nation also had a name, slogan, etc, that seemed to be glorifying Bad Things, then no
That SS lightning slash thing: no....


....A swastika and it's on a clearly pro-Nazi nation but honest it's just roleplaying: no. Sorry, you might be RPing but if that's not obvious to other people, then the primary effect of your flag will be to offend and upset, even though you don't intend it.....

...The hammer and sickle: fine (Yes, I'm aware of the hundreds of millions of deaths. But when people look at the hammer and sickle, they think communism, not mass graves. If you can point me at a survey that shows otherwise, then we'll deem this one malicious, too. But until then, it's just a Soviet flag.)...

... The Japanese flag on a nation with the slogan, "We bombed your grandparents": no


To make that point again: we don't ban particular patterns of colored pixels, we ban any content that is malicious in nature. The mods' job is to judge which is which, according to guidelines like this.

And because I know this is going to come up again: I realize that you can point out a bunch of different groups that committed terrible acts, and yet we're not banning their flags. That's because we're not banning the symbols of every group that scored a particular body count; we're prohibiting content that is malicious in nature and to most people will have the primary effect of offending. Not a few people, not just you, but most people. That's the criteria.

The forums permit relatively free speech on a range of issues, so, as the FAQ says, if you've got a political ax to grind, do it here, where people can argue back. Please don't put it in your flag when you know it will piss people off.