Socialism vs Free Market Capitalism

[Jello Biafra]

Here:

I never gave verbal consent to taxation.

You gave implied consent to taxation.

[Militia Alliance]

Is that they don't believe in ownership of thine own body, rather even their own body is subject to the state to decide to do with it. Right there is enough for any sane person to turn away from such immoral anti-civil rights demonic ideologies.

[United Dependencies]

Unfortunately for you, the only one that counts is the social contract that consists of the aggregate consensus positions of the whole populace. You're the outlier, and you're free to protest as much as you wish, but just like I can't insist on imposing the dictatorship of the proletariat on everyone, you cannot insist on imposing your system of anarchist values upon society.

So if I get a larger part of society to say that I have the right to steal everything you own then your group I can?
Also lol values, proletariat, what? lol Irrelephant? Yes

It would have to be at least 90% of society or greater. If you can that many people to agree with you then you can do basically what ever.

[Trotskylvania]

What makes you think that will go on forever? Feudalism served to increase the productive forces of human civilization, until it reached a final crisis, where the negatives it created outweighed the benfits, forcing a transformation of social relations. It'd be hubris to say that capitalism wouldn't be susceptible to the same.

No socialist has ever suggested that socialism even required altruism, or couldn't have self-interest. Far from it. Rather, we argue based on precedent that institutions that emphasize organic solidarity and participatory decision making tend to make people behave more altruistically to their fellows.

I'm not talking about "the decline of the US", but either way, I find it pretty funny that the modern libertarian insistence that capitalism has been declining seems to perfectly mirror the delusions that Marxists in the 30s and 40s had that capitalism read reached the final stage of decline.

Well you have yet to put forth these negatives.

Institutions already do this. People working in an office need to work together, teachers need to work together, etc. etc. Simply being employed ANYWHERE requires you to work together with other individuals, if you don't, you will quickly find yourself out of a job. People work together in spite of, not because of, government force.

Well you said that a society build on such a foundation will destroy itself, I have yet to see that happen.

Industrial capitalism has existed for scarcely two-hundred years. In that time, it has caused more ecological devastation then every society before it. And far from relieving this problem, the advance of technology has only served to exacerbate the ecological damage. The capitalist market has continued to place short term profitability over long-term sustainability

[Terra Agora]

I never gave verbal consent to taxation.

You gave implied consent to taxation.

How?

[Terra Agora]

So if I get a larger part of society to say that I have the right to steal everything you own then your group I can?
Also lol values, proletariat, what? lol Irrelephant? Yes

It would have to be at least 90% of society or greater. If you can that many people to agree with you then you can do basically what ever.

And there is nothing "wrong" with that then?

[United Dependencies]

It would have to be at least 90% of society or greater. If you can that many people to agree with you then you can do basically what ever.

And there is nothing "wrong" with that then?

Depends on what you're doing.

[Jello Biafra]

You gave implied consent to taxation.

How?

By remaining in a country after the age of majority and using its services knowing full well that you will be taxed for doing so.
(Yes, military protection is a service that you use.)

It would have to be at least 90% of society or greater. If you can that many people to agree with you then you can do basically what ever.

And there is nothing "wrong" with that then?

Doesn't matter. We aren't discussing ought, we're discussing is.

[Terra Agora]

And there is nothing "wrong" with that then?

Depends on what you're doing.

I can steal everything you own as long as I have the majority on my side?

[United Dependencies]

Depends on what you're doing.

I can steal everything you own as long as I have the majority on my side?

If you and 90% or more of world society believe that the above action is ok, how would it be wrong?

[Trotskylvania]

O rlly?

Everyone seems to agree that both the enforcement and intensity of federal and state economic regulations has declined since the 1970s. But I'm sure you're revealed wisdom trumps decades of economic research. I assume that's also what supports your assertion of a causal relationship between "government caused health care and education inflation", what ever the hell that is supposed to be. But hey, let's blame government imposed barriers to entry, and ignore the glaring elephant in the room of declining rate of profit and the massive economies of scale that it requires of capitalists.

Fact, government caused business to compete for labor by offering health insurance as a perk. Fact, this grew into a requirement for most businesses. Fact, comprehensive care and a third party payer system increase costs greatly. Fact, the more an employer has to pay for healthcare to hire someone, the less they will pay to the employee.

Government hands out loans and grants for education. This increases demand for degrees increases their costs. It also decreases their quality and earnings that come with them.

Businesses offered health insurance as an incentive all their own. Government never required them to do shit about it, beyond requiring that businesses not repudiate union contracts and bust unions.

Unless you believe that there is no such thing as an economy of scale, then the rationalization of health insurance by employers buying bulk has only had a positive effect on employees. If the government hadn't expanded education, then those people would be stuck in low pay, low skill jobs. If anything, government education policy has assisted the transition to higher wage, high technology industry in the US.

[Terra Agora]

I can steal everything you own as long as I have the majority on my side?

If you and 90% or more of world society believe that the above action is ok, how would it be wrong?

This cant be normal...

[Wienholdland]

Well you have yet to put forth these negatives.

Institutions already do this. People working in an office need to work together, teachers need to work together, etc. etc. Simply being employed ANYWHERE requires you to work together with other individuals, if you don't, you will quickly find yourself out of a job. People work together in spite of, not because of, government force.

Well you said that a society build on such a foundation will destroy itself, I have yet to see that happen.

Industrial capitalism has existed for scarcely two-hundred years. In that time, it has caused more ecological devastation then every society before it. And far from relieving this problem, the advance of technology has only served to exacerbate the ecological damage. The capitalist market has continued to place short term profitability over long-term sustainability

Interesting you'd say that considering the fact that the Soviet Union was the most heavily polluted country in the world.

"The extent of pollution and ecological collapse in Russia is due to decades of ill-considered military and industrial development undertaken in virtual secrecy and with scant concern for the environmental and health consequences."

http://www1.american.edu/ted/russair.htm

[United Dependencies]

If you and 90% or more of world society believe that the above action is ok, how would it be wrong?

This cant be normal...

I don't understand. If you and wider society don't think something is wrong. How is it wrong?

[Sibirsky]

They haven't been deregulating.

Enron's push for deregulation

That was partial deregulation which caused some utilities to be forced to provide electricity at a loss. Full deregulation would not have caused it.

Runaway banks and deregulation

Yeah, that's bullshit. The CRA, Fannie, Freddie, implied guarantee on their debt caused the crisis.

The S&L crisis and deregulation

Need I say more?

Passing ridiculous regulations and calling it deregulating is not actually deregulating.

[Terra Agora]

How?

By remaining in a country after the age of majority and using its services knowing full well that you will be taxed for doing so.
(Yes, military protection is a service that you use.)

Yes but I never agreed to the constitution (which is the United State's "social contract".)

[Jello Biafra]

This cant be normal...

I don't understand. If you and wider society don't think something is wrong. How is it wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_majority

[Jello Biafra]

By remaining in a country after the age of majority and using its services knowing full well that you will be taxed for doing so.
(Yes, military protection is a service that you use.)

Yes but I never agreed to the constitution (which is the United State's "social contract".)

If you did the things I mentioned, you agreed to the constitution.

[Trotskylvania]

Unfortunately for you, the only one that counts is the social contract that consists of the aggregate consensus positions of the whole populace. You're the outlier, and you're free to protest as much as you wish, but just like I can't insist on imposing the dictatorship of the proletariat on everyone, you cannot insist on imposing your system of anarchist values upon society.

So if I get a larger part of society to say that I have the right to steal everything you own then your group I can?
Also lol values, proletariat, what? lol Irrelephant? Yes

The only thing lolworthy is your continued insistence on having a monopoly on legitimate political values, and your ridiculous belief that notions of rights and justice are somehow not socially determined.

[Terra Agora]

This cant be normal...

I don't understand. If you and wider society don't think something is wrong. How is it wrong?

So if I had everyone in your city thinking that its okay for me to kill your family it is okay?

By using your logic it is.

[Terra Agora]

So if I get a larger part of society to say that I have the right to steal everything you own then your group I can?
Also lol values, proletariat, what? lol Irrelephant? Yes

The only thing lolworthy is your continued insistence on having a monopoly on legitimate political values, and your ridiculous belief that notions of rights and justice are somehow not socially determined.

Monopoly on legitimate political values?

How so explain.

[Trotskylvania]

Industrial capitalism has existed for scarcely two-hundred years. In that time, it has caused more ecological devastation then every society before it. And far from relieving this problem, the advance of technology has only served to exacerbate the ecological damage. The capitalist market has continued to place short term profitability over long-term sustainability

Interesting you'd say that considering the fact that the Soviet Union was the most heavily polluted country in the world.

"The extent of pollution and ecological collapse in Russia is due to decades of ill-considered military and industrial development undertaken in virtual secrecy and with scant concern for the environmental and health consequences."

http://www1.american.edu/ted/russair.htm

Why in god's name would you think I champion the Soviet Union? The Soviets were just another flavor of capitalist social relations, with a totalitarian statist flair instead. They just draped everything in red bunting and called it socialism.

[The Merchant Republics]

What isn't? Did you read what I wrote? Free market capitalism is not opposed to charity.

1. Free-Market Capitalists believe everyone should look after their own interests above all things
2. Charity is essentially an altruistic ideal of looking after others while harming yourself (be it financially or using your time(which would otherwise be spent making money for yourself))

therefore: Free-Market Capitalism is, in its purest form, actively opposed to charity.

It's called Logic, my friend.

To quote my greatest role model and the devil incarnate of all leftists, J.D. Rockefeller:

"Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient to become independent of it."
John D. Rockefeller

Charity does not necessarily have to be an altruistic deed, people donate to charity for their own pleasure as well as to satisfy social obligation. My personal view of charity is that it should raise people up so that they too can live on their own and from there eventually their additional productivity would provide a net benefit to you.

There you go, a selfish reason for charity.

[Terra Agora]

Yes but I never agreed to the constitution (which is the United State's "social contract".)

If you did the things I mentioned, you agreed to the constitution.

Im forced to. I was born here. Not to mention it coercive.
Thats like me saying I own your house and as long as you use it and the area surrounding I can do what I want with you.

[Neu California]

Enron's push for deregulation

That was partial deregulation which caused some utilities to be forced to provide electricity at a loss. Full deregulation would not have caused it.

Runaway banks and deregulation

Yeah, that's bullshit. The CRA, Fannie, Freddie, implied guarantee on their debt caused the crisis.

The S&L crisis and deregulation

Need I say more?

Passing ridiculous regulations and calling it deregulating is not actually deregulating.

1. you said they haven't been deregulating. I proved that there has been deregulation
2. One of my favorite phrases: Source for 2 and 3? As for 1, can you show that more deregulation would've kept the companies from losing money, while keeping power prices within reasonable amounts?