Socialism vs Free Market Capitalism

[Neu California]

Here's a hypothetical (and before you say it wouldn't happen, I need unequivocal proof that it wouldn't happen): Products A and B are things that everyone needs (like, say, food). Product A is excellent but most people can't afford it. Product B is absolute crap but most people can afford it. Why would Product B be taken off the market if the company has a captive market, is making a large profit, and doesn't have to improve their product to keep that market?

With few barriers to entry a new competitor springs up and offers Product C which is only a little bit more expensive than product B but of a lot higher quality.

That would depend on if they coud make a reasonable profit by dramatically improving the quality. If such couldn't happen, then what?

True, and the presence of a strong government does not mean the people are being oppressed (or are the people of Scandanavia being oppressed?)

And interesting fact: According to the CIA World Factbook the GDP PPP Per Capita of Norway and the US is:

5. Norway $ 59,100 2010 est.

10. United States $ 47,400 2010 est.

I wonder what that says (other than that I am a statistics junkie)?

Oil and gas exports are $11,820 of Norway's number. Bringing them just below the US. Their much higher taxes, tariffs and cost of living take care of the rest.

Source? I looked and I could't find one.

[Wienholdland]

Both of you are being quoted because this applies to both of you.

Terra Agora did not agree to the social contract simply by being born.

Exactly his point. He didn't sign the contract for the government to take his money. Yet it still does.

Certainly. His parents agreed to it on his behalf. Which is another facet of contract law. Unless you're suggesting that infant abuse should be legal?

My parents didn't agree to it, yet I have been born into this "contract". What you don't understand or aren't willing to mention is the fact that 51 beats 49. If there are 3 people including you in your neighborhood, and 2 of them want to build an AA battery on your front lawn, it's going to be built.

[Sibirsky]

Over efficiency does not exist.

Free market capitalism reduces income inequality and central banks and government exacerbate the boom-bust cycle.

I know someone who has been reading radical Liberation craponomics..
Seriously, I want actual proof of this process.
The United States has been deregulating since the late 1970s, yet average middle class incomes are either down or stagnant, the wealth gap has soared, and education/health are in ruins. And to add to that ,100% Free market economics cant get a nation through a though war like other forms of economic systems can.

Watch the name calling.

Deregulation is a myth.

Wages are stagnant because of inflation, foreign competition, government caused healthcare and education inflation, the lowering of the value of education and so on. All caused by government.

2/3 of American millionaires own their own business. Government creates barriers to entry which reduce the number of businesses, products, jobs, increase prices, decrease quality of goods and decrease wages.

[Trotskylvania]

Which is of course why boom-bust cycles decreased after the widespread institutionalization of Keynesian and Monestarist economics within government spending and central banking policies...

The Great Depression and Global Financial Crisis disagree.

We've had two major global economic crises since the proliferation of central banking, international trade and indicative planning of at least a quasi-Keynesian form. Prior to that, there was a depression in the major developed nations every decade or so. Some, like the Long Depression, seemed to go on for decades.

[Jello Biafra]

Both of you are being quoted because this applies to both of you.




Certainly. His parents agreed to it on his behalf. Which is another facet of contract law. Unless you're suggesting that infant abuse should be legal?

My parents didn't agree to it, yet I have been born into this "contract".

Yes, they did. See Sibirsky's point about implied contracts.

What you don't understand or aren't willing to mention is the fact that 51 beats 49. If there are 3 people including you in your neighborhood, and 2 of them want to build an AA battery on your front lawn, it's going to be built.

I understand this; I haven't mentioned it because I don't see its relevance. What's your point?

[Sibirsky]

Both of you are being quoted because this applies to both of you.

Terra Agora did not agree to the social contract simply by being born.

Exactly his point. He didn't sign the contract for the government to take his money. Yet it still does.

Certainly. His parents agreed to it on his behalf. Which is another facet of contract law. Unless you're suggesting that infant abuse should be legal?

What does infant abuse have to do with contract law?

[The Princeton Republic]

Complacent Capitalism is in the same boat as Socialism. So is Inflationism.

[Jello Biafra]

Both of you are being quoted because this applies to both of you.




Certainly. His parents agreed to it on his behalf. Which is another facet of contract law. Unless you're suggesting that infant abuse should be legal?

What does infant abuse have to do with contract law?

The social contract also provides protection for infants, who, by definition, cannot agree to the provisions of the contract.

[Terra Agora]

Sure I'll sign some piece of paper and get some other people to sign it that says I can steal from you.

You dont believe it you say? Then I have this other piece of paper signed by other people saying that last piece of paper is legitimate.

You realize that the social contract isn't a literal, physical document, right?

Nah thats the constitution I wrote that gave me the legal authority to rob you.

[Terra Agora]

Sure I'll sign some piece of paper and get some other people to sign it that says I can steal from you.

Unless I sign it I am not in the contract, and thus it is impossible to "steal" from me.

You dont believe it you say? Then I have this other piece of paper signed by other people saying that last piece of paper is legitimate.

Unless I'm in the contract, I have no rights, and therefore what I believe is irrelevant.

You nor I signed the constitution yet that gives the government authority to tax you and I.

[Trotskylvania]

I know someone who has been reading radical Liberation craponomics..
Seriously, I want actual proof of this process.
The United States has been deregulating since the late 1970s, yet average middle class incomes are either down or stagnant, the wealth gap has soared, and education/health are in ruins. And to add to that ,100% Free market economics cant get a nation through a though war like other forms of economic systems can.

Watch the name calling.

Deregulation is a myth.

Wages are stagnant because of inflation, foreign competition, government caused healthcare and education inflation, the lowering of the value of education and so on. All caused by government.

2/3 of American millionaires own their own business. Government creates barriers to entry which reduce the number of businesses, products, jobs, increase prices, decrease quality of goods and decrease wages.

O rlly?

Everyone seems to agree that both the enforcement and intensity of federal and state economic regulations has declined since the 1970s. But I'm sure you're revealed wisdom trumps decades of economic research. I assume that's also what supports your assertion of a causal relationship between "government caused health care and education inflation", what ever the hell that is supposed to be. But hey, let's blame government imposed barriers to entry, and ignore the glaring elephant in the room of declining rate of profit and the massive economies of scale that it requires of capitalists.

[Sibirsky]

With few barriers to entry a new competitor springs up and offers Product C which is only a little bit more expensive than product B but of a lot higher quality.

That would depend on if they coud make a reasonable profit by dramatically improving the quality. If such couldn't happen, then what?

Someone else will enter the market. There is always someone else, assuming low barriers to entry.

Oil and gas exports are $11,820 of Norway's number. Bringing them just below the US. Their much higher taxes, tariffs and cost of living take care of the rest.

Source? I looked and I could't find one.

Export revenues from oil and gas have risen to 45% of total exports and constitute more than 20% of the GDP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway

And their is sources from this PDF.
http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/n ... aer_en.pdf

[Jello Biafra]

Unless I sign it I am not in the contract, and thus it is impossible to "steal" from me.


Unless I'm in the contract, I have no rights, and therefore what I believe is irrelevant.

You nor I signed the constitution yet that gives the government authority to tax you and I.

See the earlier point about implied contracts.

[Sibirsky]

The Great Depression and Global Financial Crisis disagree.

We've had two major global economic crises since the proliferation of central banking, international trade and indicative planning of at least a quasi-Keynesian form. Prior to that, there was a depression in the major developed nations every decade or so. Some, like the Long Depression, seemed to go on for decades.

And we've had central banks and government interference prior to the Fed as well.

[Terra Agora]

You nor I signed the constitution yet that gives the government authority to tax you and I.

See the earlier point about implied contracts.

Which was?

[Trotskylvania]

You realize that the social contract isn't a literal, physical document, right?

Nah thats the constitution I wrote that gave me the legal authority to rob you.

Unfortunately for you, the only one that counts is the social contract that consists of the aggregate consensus positions of the whole populace. You're the outlier, and you're free to protest as much as you wish, but just like I can't insist on imposing the dictatorship of the proletariat on everyone, you cannot insist on imposing your system of anarchist values upon society.

[Sibirsky]

My parents didn't agree to it, yet I have been born into this "contract".

Yes, they did. See Sibirsky's point about implied contracts.

They didn't. They didn't agree to it themselves, let alone for their child.

[Neu California]

I know someone who has been reading radical Liberation craponomics..
Seriously, I want actual proof of this process.
The United States has been deregulating since the late 1970s, yet average middle class incomes are either down or stagnant, the wealth gap has soared, and education/health are in ruins. And to add to that ,100% Free market economics cant get a nation through a though war like other forms of economic systems can.

They haven't been deregulating.

Enron's push for deregulation

Runaway banks and deregulation

The S&L crisis and deregulation

Need I say more?

[Wienholdland]

Ever read a world almanac? You'd be surprised how many inventions(that contributed to the human race as a whole) were created/discovered in 19th century USA. The prosperity that comes from capitalism inevitably benefits society as a whole.

How many people do you think would be motivated to work hard, achieve and innovate without the fiscal incentive? As shallow as it may sound, it is reality, humans do act in their own self interest.

The US government has grown exponentially over the last 100 years, capitalism has been gradually pushed away, so the decline of the US can hardly be blamed on capitalism.

What makes you think that will go on forever? Feudalism served to increase the productive forces of human civilization, until it reached a final crisis, where the negatives it created outweighed the benfits, forcing a transformation of social relations. It'd be hubris to say that capitalism wouldn't be susceptible to the same.

No socialist has ever suggested that socialism even required altruism, or couldn't have self-interest. Far from it. Rather, we argue based on precedent that institutions that emphasize organic solidarity and participatory decision making tend to make people behave more altruistically to their fellows.

I'm not talking about "the decline of the US", but either way, I find it pretty funny that the modern libertarian insistence that capitalism has been declining seems to perfectly mirror the delusions that Marxists in the 30s and 40s had that capitalism read reached the final stage of decline.

Well you have yet to put forth these negatives.

Institutions already do this. People working in an office need to work together, teachers need to work together, etc. etc. Simply being employed ANYWHERE requires you to work together with other individuals, if you don't, you will quickly find yourself out of a job. People work together in spite of, not because of, government force.

Well you said that a society build on such a foundation will destroy itself, I have yet to see that happen.

[Distruzio]

The Great Depression and Global Financial Crisis disagree.

We've had two major global economic crises since the proliferation of central banking, international trade and indicative planning of at least a quasi-Keynesian form. Prior to that, there was a depression in the major developed nations every decade or so. Some, like the Long Depression, seemed to go on for decades.

The Long Depression and any reset before the advent of the FED were never systemic. They were local. And we have had a number of economic recessions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States

[Jello Biafra]

See the earlier point about implied contracts.

Which was?

Here:

Right. Verbal contracts and even implied contracts stand up in court.

You go into a restaurant and order food. You are implying that you will pay for it. You do not have to tell the waiter that you will pay for it. You do not have to sign a contract saying you will pay for it. You entered the restaurant and ordered food voluntarily, thereby agreeing to the implied contract of paying for food.

[Jello Biafra]

Yes, they did. See Sibirsky's point about implied contracts.

They didn't. They didn't agree to it themselves, let alone for their child.

Their parents agreed to it on their behalf. By remaining in the contrary after they reached the age of majority, they implicitly agreed to it, and the process repeated for their children.

[Terra Agora]

Nah thats the constitution I wrote that gave me the legal authority to rob you.

Unfortunately for you, the only one that counts is the social contract that consists of the aggregate consensus positions of the whole populace. You're the outlier, and you're free to protest as much as you wish, but just like I can't insist on imposing the dictatorship of the proletariat on everyone, you cannot insist on imposing your system of anarchist values upon society.

So if I get a larger part of society to say that I have the right to steal everything you own then your group I can?
Also lol values, proletariat, what? lol Irrelephant? Yes

[Terra Agora]

Which was?

Here:

Right. Verbal contracts and even implied contracts stand up in court.

You go into a restaurant and order food. You are implying that you will pay for it. You do not have to tell the waiter that you will pay for it. You do not have to sign a contract saying you will pay for it. You entered the restaurant and ordered food voluntarily, thereby agreeing to the implied contract of paying for food.

I never gave verbal consent to taxation.

[Sibirsky]

Watch the name calling.

Deregulation is a myth.

Wages are stagnant because of inflation, foreign competition, government caused healthcare and education inflation, the lowering of the value of education and so on. All caused by government.

2/3 of American millionaires own their own business. Government creates barriers to entry which reduce the number of businesses, products, jobs, increase prices, decrease quality of goods and decrease wages.

O rlly?

Everyone seems to agree that both the enforcement and intensity of federal and state economic regulations has declined since the 1970s. But I'm sure you're revealed wisdom trumps decades of economic research. I assume that's also what supports your assertion of a causal relationship between "government caused health care and education inflation", what ever the hell that is supposed to be. But hey, let's blame government imposed barriers to entry, and ignore the glaring elephant in the room of declining rate of profit and the massive economies of scale that it requires of capitalists.

Fact, government caused business to compete for labor by offering health insurance as a perk. Fact, this grew into a requirement for most businesses. Fact, comprehensive care and a third party payer system increase costs greatly. Fact, the more an employer has to pay for healthcare to hire someone, the less they will pay to the employee.

Government hands out loans and grants for education. This increases demand for degrees increases their costs. It also decreases their quality and earnings that come with them.