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Health Care and Abortion (Open)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do Democrats care more about?

Health Care (spending money)
1
14%
Health Care (spending money)
3
43%
Health Care (spending money)
1
14%
Health Care (spending money)
2
29%
 
Total votes : 7

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Britanania
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Health Care and Abortion (Open)

Postby Britanania » Fri May 06, 2011 6:51 pm

This is sort of a parody of another thread, the one "House Passes Anti-Abortion Bill". Mainly because Im a conservative guy, and mainly because Im not liberal.



Wamitoria wrote:http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/wicker-dont-hold-your-breath-for-hr-3-passage-in-the-senate.php

Republican sponsors of H.R. 3, the divisive abortion-limiting bill that passed in the House on Wednesday by a 251-175 vote, are preparing to introduce the legislation to a Democratic-controlled Senate where even they admit its chances of advancing are slim to none.

Senator Roger Wicker (R-MS) remained optimistic that the bill would serve a vital message for pro-life supporters even as the Obama administration threatened to veto the legislation if it reached the president's desk.

"Every time we've attempted to advance the pro-life cause through legislation it has always started out as an uphill battle," Wicker told TPM. "It's unlikely that we'll be able to get to 60 votes. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try."

The bill seeks a permanent ban on federal funding for abortions including rolling back key provisions of the Affordable Care Act, the health-care reform bill which passed last year and one of the president's most hard-fought victories. Critics maintain that the bill would deprive low-income women and minorities of access to abortions and eliminate tax-credits to struggling small businesses.

But given the harsh political reality the bill faces, the latest Republican effort to limit abortion seems less like a priority for this Congress and more like political cover ahead of the impending 2012 election.

"Elections have consequences," Wicker said. "We wouldn't be here without the November 2010 election. I think this is among the very important issues that the American people will be called upon to look at in the 2012 election."

The true test for Republicans who are determined to bring H.R. 3 to center-stage will come in the next few months. Some proponents maintain that "If you don't move the ball down the field," as Congresswoman Jean Schmidt (R-OH) says, "it's never going to get moved."

Others favor a more elaborate technique in the Senate by seeking Democratic votes in favor of H.R. 3 in exchange for Republican votes on the upcoming debt-ceiling hike confrontation.

Senator Wicker demurred on the issue, saying it's unlikely that he will tie the bill to the debt-ceiling issue. But, at least for the moment, it remains to be seen what other avenues he has at his disposal to advance the legislation.

Perhaps, as Schmidt says, "he might get lucky, and we hope he will."


Alright Republicans, we get it. You don't care about anything but abortion and privatizing Medicare. Why do you have to keep reminding us?

A well, at least it won't pass the senate, and it will probably alienate many of those who voted Republican expecting "jobs, jobs, jobs."

Well, NSG, what do you think of the situation? Will this negatively affect the GOP in 2012?


So conservative NS users, what do you think of health care/abortion?
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri May 06, 2011 6:54 pm

Democrats: "Here's our list of shit we want to get done. It's pretty expansive."

Republicans: "*Shit fit*"

Democrats: "Alright, we'll compromise on everything because we have no spine. Now we're going to lose spectacularly in the '10 elections."

Republicans: "Alright, we got elected on a promise to push through something about jobs. Time to push through something about abortion!"

Democrats: "Yeah, we're not passing that."

Republicans: "Jesus Christ, is health care all you care about?"

Democrats: "...

What?"
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Ceannairceach
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Postby Ceannairceach » Fri May 06, 2011 6:54 pm

I don't quite get the social conservative stance in general. Stagnation, in my mind, equals death.

Do conservatives promote our death as a species now?

I do so love the insane Theory of Connection I am making up as I go along...

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Postby Norstal » Fri May 06, 2011 6:56 pm

Britanania wrote:
So conservative NS users, what do you think of health care/abortion?

Not conservative, but, you know with the failing economy and high unemployment rate, shouldn't you people focus on the economy first?

I mean, really, this is all menial. If you wanna conserve something conserve America's economy.
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Postby Soviet Haaregrad » Fri May 06, 2011 6:58 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Democrats: "Here's our list of shit we want to get done. It's pretty expansive."

Republicans: "*Shit fit*"

Democrats: "Alright, we'll compromise on everything because we have no spine. Now we're going to lose spectacularly in the '10 elections."

Republicans: "Alright, we got elected on a promise to push through something about jobs. Time to push through something about abortion!"

Democrats: "Yeah, we're not passing that."

Republicans: "Jesus Christ, is health care all you care about?"

Democrats: "...

What?"


And now this is the fair and balanced parody. If this is conservative parody, no wonder the Fox attempt at the Daily Show lasted 2 not funny episodes.
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Postby Wamitoria » Fri May 06, 2011 7:05 pm

Britanania wrote:This is sort of a parody of another thread, the one "House Passes Anti-Abortion Bill".

If we're going for stereotypes, the poll should be about taxes, not health care.
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Postby Terra Agora » Fri May 06, 2011 7:20 pm

Norstal wrote:
Britanania wrote:
So conservative NS users, what do you think of health care/abortion?

Not conservative, but, you know with the failing economy and high unemployment rate, shouldn't you people focus on the economy first?

I mean, really, this is all menial. If you wanna conserve something conserve America's economy.

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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri May 06, 2011 7:30 pm

I think health care should be the one thing government guarantees, but it can never be and should never be through mandates.

With regards to abortion I think it is an evil, though a necessary one, which should only be practiced in the most necessary of situations.

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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri May 06, 2011 7:32 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:I think health care should be the one thing government guarantees, but it can never be and should never be through mandates.

With regards to abortion I think it is an evil, though a necessary one, which should only be practiced in the most necessary of situations.

Such as?
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri May 06, 2011 7:33 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:I think health care should be the one thing government guarantees, but it can never be and should never be through mandates.

With regards to abortion I think it is an evil, though a necessary one, which should only be practiced in the most necessary of situations.

Such as?


Rape, incest, or the mother's life is in danger.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri May 06, 2011 7:37 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:Rape,


Why?

incest,


Why should it be legal to kill products of incest?

or the mother's life is in danger.


Why is her life more valuable than the baby's?
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Postby The Floridian Coast » Fri May 06, 2011 8:06 pm

Can I ask you "pro-life" people a question: why do you think you're so special?

Lots of Americans have ethical obligations to how tax dollars are spent. Pacifists pay taxes that go to funding wars and building up our military. Environmentalists pay taxes that go to oil industry subsidies. Vegans pay taxes that go to farm subsidies that include factory farms. Libertarians pay taxes that go to welfare. White nationalists pay taxes that go to a university system with minority quotas. Privacy activists pay taxes that go to homeland security and TSA scanners. I could go on and on and on forever.

So why is your moral objection to tax dollars funding abortion anymore deserving than anyone else's? Especially since your movement is the only one that participates in such terrorism as clinic bombing and assassination of doctors (well, so do some radical animal rights people, but your body count is still higher). Why are you special? You're not.
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri May 06, 2011 8:20 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:Rape,


Why?

incest,


Why should it be legal to kill products of incest?

or the mother's life is in danger.


Why is her life more valuable than the baby's?


There is a different between trying to "rid" yourself of a mistake because of you or your partner's irresponsibility versus being raped or having your life in danger, both of which are not options. Either way, I already told you my more blunt answer in another thread, I think it's 'race suicide.'

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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri May 06, 2011 8:21 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote: Either way, I already told you my more blunt answer in another thread, I think it's 'race suicide.'

Oh Jesus Christ... :palm:
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Postby Soviet Haaregrad » Fri May 06, 2011 8:26 pm

The Floridian Coast wrote:Can I ask you "pro-life" people a question: why do you think you're so special?

Lots of Americans have ethical obligations to how tax dollars are spent. Pacifists pay taxes that go to funding wars and building up our military. Environmentalists pay taxes that go to oil industry subsidies. Vegans pay taxes that go to farm subsidies that include factory farms. Libertarians pay taxes that go to welfare. White nationalists pay taxes that go to a university system with minority quotas. Privacy activists pay taxes that go to homeland security and TSA scanners. I could go on and on and on forever.

So why is your moral objection to tax dollars funding abortion anymore deserving than anyone else's? Especially since your movement is the only one that participates in such terrorism as clinic bombing and assassination of doctors (well, so do some radical animal rights people, but your body count is still higher). Why are you special? You're not.


Because anti-choicers expect special rights for fetuses and themselves.
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Postby The Floridian Coast » Fri May 06, 2011 8:31 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
There is a different between trying to "rid" yourself of a mistake because of you or your partner's irresponsibility versus being raped or having your life in danger, both of which are not options. Either way, I already told you my more blunt answer in another thread, I think it's 'race suicide.'


Amazing how the whole argument against abortion revolves around giving personhood to the fetus, and it's always about the woman.

You have two women. One is a victim of a brutal rape. One is a well-off, married woman who accidentally becomes pregnant and doesn't "feel like" raising a child. Two possibilities:

#1 - The fetus can think, feel, or in some way displays traits of a person. The rape fetus and the consensual sex fetus are genetically quite the same. They have the same mind, same senses. Aborting the rape fetus is therefore as much an atrocity as aborting the consensual fetus.

#2 - The fetus has no sentience, no thoughts, no sense of self and no ability to feel pain or anything at all for that matter whatsoever. Therefore, aborting either amounts to the same action because the fetus is not a person and it makes no difference to the fetus whether it exists or not.

I tend to believe the second option, which is why I am pro-choice, and why I don't care what the circumstances are. But if you believe the first one, then there really are no valid exceptions.
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri May 06, 2011 8:35 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote: Either way, I already told you my more blunt answer in another thread, I think it's 'race suicide.'

Oh Jesus Christ... :palm:


*shrugs* What can I say? I agree with Teddy. We need soldiers for our foreign policy, and a labor force to compete.

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Aeronos
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Postby Aeronos » Fri May 06, 2011 8:38 pm

The Floridian Coast wrote:Libertarians pay taxes that go to welfare.

?!?!?! You mean, pay taxes that go to institutions that're supposed to pay for welfare? I'm a libertarian and I probably love welfare more than most socialists, I'd just prefer it handled by charity instead. Though since you also push here, no, when I pay taxes, the part that goes to welfare is the part that makes me happy to pay taxes. I don't want a miserable, all-vs-all poverty-ridden world :P

But your point remains. How about a compromise to the pro-lifers? They lose tax exemption, a form of indirect endorsement, on religious organisations, and we lose federal subsidies for abortion? Deal?
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Postby Terra Agora » Fri May 06, 2011 8:40 pm

The Floridian Coast wrote:Can I ask you "pro-life" people a question: why do you think you're so special?

Lots of Americans have ethical obligations to how tax dollars are spent. Pacifists pay taxes that go to funding wars and building up our military. Environmentalists pay taxes that go to oil industry subsidies. Vegans pay taxes that go to farm subsidies that include factory farms. Libertarians pay taxes that go to welfare. White nationalists pay taxes that go to a university system with minority quotas. Privacy activists pay taxes that go to homeland security and TSA scanners. I could go on and on and on forever.

So why is your moral objection to tax dollars funding abortion anymore deserving than anyone else's? Especially since your movement is the only one that participates in such terrorism as clinic bombing and assassination of doctors (well, so do some radical animal rights people, but your body count is still higher). Why are you special? You're not.

This is a very weak argument because every one of those groups you mentioned are against their money going to what they are against.
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri May 06, 2011 8:42 pm

Ceannairceach wrote:I don't quite get the social conservative stance in general. Stagnation, in my mind, equals death.

Do conservatives promote our death as a species now?

I do so love the insane Theory of Connection I am making up as I go along...

One wonders. Conservatives, so a wise man said, think all our best achievements are in the past. They accept change slowly and very grudgingly.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri May 06, 2011 8:43 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:*shrugs* What can I say? I agree with Teddy. We need soldiers for our foreign policy, and a labor force to compete.

Which is why immigration is so important.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri May 06, 2011 8:48 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
Why?



Why should it be legal to kill products of incest?



Why is her life more valuable than the baby's?


There is a different between trying to "rid" yourself of a mistake because of you or your partner's irresponsibility versus being raped or having your life in danger, both of which are not options. Either way, I already told you my more blunt answer in another thread, I think it's 'race suicide.'

It's not the baby's fault his mother go raped, why should he suffer for it? Didn't address the incest question.

I don't really think it would be a good idea to force a woman to accuse someone of rape every time she wanted an abortion.

I don't see how it's "race suicide" anymore than contraceptives are. Should those be illegal?
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri May 06, 2011 8:57 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:
There is a different between trying to "rid" yourself of a mistake because of you or your partner's irresponsibility versus being raped or having your life in danger, both of which are not options. Either way, I already told you my more blunt answer in another thread, I think it's 'race suicide.'


I don't see how it's "race suicide" anymore than contraceptives are. Should those be illegal?


To be fair, I did quote a speech by Teddy Roosevelt, intended with the context that he gave it.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Fri May 06, 2011 8:59 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
I don't see how it's "race suicide" anymore than contraceptives are. Should those be illegal?


To be fair, I did quote a speech by Teddy Roosevelt, intended with the context that he gave it.

Which couldn't apply to condoms? Or just not having sex? Women should be legally compelled to give birth on a regular basis.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Fri May 06, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Threlizdun » Fri May 06, 2011 9:15 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:
To be fair, I did quote a speech by Teddy Roosevelt, intended with the context that he gave it.

Which couldn't apply to condoms? Or just not having sex? Women should be legally compelled to give birth on a regular basis.

Please tell me the last comment is sarcasm. Anyways, I am strongly for the acceptence of a woman to do whatever she pleases with her body. A topic that has already arrisen on this thread is rape. I have be countered with sentiments from others asking why the fetus should be punished for the father raping her? I have come to counter this with another question. Why should the mother be punished and forced to go through months of pain, possibly risk her life, and have to pay hospital expenses because she was raped? It is unethical to force women to suffer in such a way.
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