House Passes Anti-Abortion Bill

[Alien Space Bats]

So we should force pro-lifers to pay for people's abortions?

If a woman has health care coverage through work (or her husband does), how is that YOU paying for her abortion?!?

Life imitates art... or something.

[The Chaos Heart]

Day after is an expression in this case. I thought that would be obvious. Apparently not.

I love it when people say something really dumb and then pretend they didn't really say something dumb - other people just interpreted "you should check the day after you have sex" to mean "you should check the day after you have sex"! Those crazy people! Too funny.

Kiddo, it's okay that you have no idea how pregnancy works. It's okay that your ideas about pregnancy are based solely on vague notions you've picked up from TV shows and your friends at school. It's just not okay to plan on basing legislation on such ideas, or to claim that any woman whose body works differently than your imagined version of reality - which, given your magical instant pregnancy tests, appears to be "every woman" - must be "dumb." Whether you like reality or not, in the real world, it is very, very easy for many women to have no idea they are pregnant for the first few months of pregnancy, and entirely possible - though rare - for women to carry to term without ever having any obvious symptom of pregnancy.

I've already told you it was an expression. No one else seems to be bringing this up except for you. Are you trying to tell me how I meant something to come across? So now you're a mind manipulator? Amusing.

[Nulono]

So we should force pro-lifers to pay for people's abortions?

If a woman has health care coverage through work (or her husband does), how is that YOU paying for her abortion?!?

Life imitates art... or something.

The bill prohibits taxpayer funding of abortions. It makes the Hyde Amendment permanent.

[The Norwegian Blue]

We force pacifists to pay for the military, vegans to pay for factory farm subsidies, environmentalists to pay for power plants, and anarchists to pay Congress's salaries. What makes your objection any more valid than any of theirs?

Their objections are valid as well.

I appreciate that you're consistent. However, if we accept all those objections, we have pretty much destroyed the entire concept of the state, and I don't see that as a particularly workable way of accomplishing...well, anything, really, but it's certainly not a workable way of accomplishing your goal of passing more laws criminalizing a behavior you disapprove of, since it's very hard to pass or enforce laws without a government.

[The Chaos Heart]

Likewise, the sperm is a HUMAN sperm. You seem to be ignoring your own contradiction. If a fetus is considered human then so two would a human male's sperm. In which case, mass genocide is done daily around the globe.

Once again, you are ignoring the fact that they should be aware of the fact that they had sex, and therefore, should take extra precautions. You're arguing that being willfully ignorant is okay.

A sperm is no more a human than a thumb is. This is basic biology, people!
If someone thought they were infertile, or used several methods of birth control, it's not unreasonable that they wouldn't suspect a pregnancy.

Thumbs are not living in any way though biologically. Sperm does live biologically. Basic biology.

Also, everything you just mentioned are statistical outliers. And even so, givin all that, people should still be cautious and check. You act like a pregnancy test is a big deal. People should be aware there are always possibilities, and pregnancy is no small matter.

[Nulono]

A sperm is no more a human than a thumb is. This is basic biology, people!
If someone thought they were infertile, or used several methods of birth control, it's not unreasonable that they wouldn't suspect a pregnancy.

Thumbs are not living in any way though biologically. Sperm does live biologically. Basic biology.

Also, everything you just mentioned are statistical outliers. And even so, givin all that, people should still be cautious and check. You act like a pregnancy test is a big deal. People should be aware there are always possibilities, and pregnancy is no small matter.

Thumbs are, in fact, alive, You're full of living cells, in all your organs.

Their objections are valid as well.

I appreciate that you're consistent. However, if we accept all those objections, we have pretty much destroyed the entire concept of the state, and I don't see that as a particularly workable way of accomplishing...well, anything, really, but it's certainly not a workable way of accomplishing your goal of passing more laws criminalizing a behavior you disapprove of, since it's very hard to pass or enforce laws without a government.

You can have a government without forcing people to pay for the killing of fellow human beings.

[Georgism]

So we should force pro-lifers to pay for people's abortions?

Yes. Just as pacifists pay for the military, anarchists pay for the police and racists pay Obama's salary.

[Alien Space Bats]

Yep. I'm not about to let lawyers and judges get between mama and her baby. That's not negotiable.

How does it make sense that the SAME BABY can be killed or not based solely on his location?

You're mixing apples and oranges. I believe that I made that comment in the context of saying that I would at most support a Constitutional Amendment to permit States to ban abortion - but that I would never consent to granting unborn children full legal personhood.

As for the location, well, in this case - as with real estate - location is EVERYTHING. In this case, baby's location is inside another human being - y'know, one who ostensibly enjoys Constitutional rights of her own?

Putting a legally empowered person inside another legal person is just asking for trouble. There are inevitably going to be conflicts of interest between the two, and I don't fancy baby's lawyers ordering mommy around. That's just me, I suppose, but I consider women to be real legal people - maybe even more so that unborn babies, seeing as how they're already born and have lives and aspirations all their own (remember)?

IOW, women are more than just walking incubators with sexual pleasure centers attached. They really are. That's why I consider myself a feminist (yes, I'm a man, too - deal with it).

The stubbornness with which you seek this goal - fetal personhood - leads me to really suspect you of having a hidden agenda. If you managed to get the legal authority to ban abortion, why would you still need fetal personhood?

The only reason I can think you'd need it would be as a legal lever to control fertile women and deprive them of their rights.

[The Norwegian Blue]

I love it when people say something really dumb and then pretend they didn't really say something dumb - other people just interpreted "you should check the day after you have sex" to mean "you should check the day after you have sex"! Those crazy people! Too funny.

Kiddo, it's okay that you have no idea how pregnancy works. It's okay that your ideas about pregnancy are based solely on vague notions you've picked up from TV shows and your friends at school. It's just not okay to plan on basing legislation on such ideas, or to claim that any woman whose body works differently than your imagined version of reality - which, given your magical instant pregnancy tests, appears to be "every woman" - must be "dumb." Whether you like reality or not, in the real world, it is very, very easy for many women to have no idea they are pregnant for the first few months of pregnancy, and entirely possible - though rare - for women to carry to term without ever having any obvious symptom of pregnancy.

I've already told you it was an expression. No one else seems to be bringing this up except for you. Are you trying to tell me how I meant something to come across? So now you're a mind manipulator? Amusing.

No, dearie. I don't read minds. I read words. Here are some of yours:

"anyone who doesn't find out they are pregnant within two months is just...dumb"

"Also, the day after you have sex, even if you used a contraceptive, you should be checking to see if you're pregnant."

"And after a month, when you don't get your period, you should be checking again. Really, if you don't take these precautions regularly and don't notice your own biological signs, you're just stupid and asking for trouble."

"And the plethora of other biological signs that come with pregnancy? You're simply ignoring those, aren't you?"

"And once again, after having sex, you should be checking yourself, even if you used contraceptives."

Seriously, it's okay just to admit you didn't know what you were talking about. People will respect you more for backing down from an indefensible position than for trying to claim that, for example, when you said, "And after a month, when you don't get your period, you should be checking again," you were TOTALLY AWARE that many women will still get their period while pregnant, and that when you said "the day after you have sex," you totally meant "not the day after you have sex" and anyone who interpreted "the day after you have sex" to mean "the day after you have sex" rather than "not the day after you have sex" is just "manipulating minds."

I mean, you can keep this up if you want. It's pretty entertaining. But I think it'd be wiser to back down gracefully, educate yourself, and remind yourself that in future, it might be smart to make sure you know what you're talking about before proposing legislation based on your misunderstandings of biology.

[The Chaos Heart]

Thumbs are not living in any way though biologically. Sperm does live biologically. Basic biology.

Also, everything you just mentioned are statistical outliers. And even so, givin all that, people should still be cautious and check. You act like a pregnancy test is a big deal. People should be aware there are always possibilities, and pregnancy is no small matter.

Thumbs are, in fact, alive, You're full of living cells, in all your organs.

Those cells are alive. But the thumb itself is not.

[Nulono]

So we should force pro-lifers to pay for people's abortions?

Yes. Just as pacifists pay for the military, anarchists pay for the police and racists pay Obama's salary.

We shouldn't be paying for the military either.

[The Chaos Heart]

I've already told you it was an expression. No one else seems to be bringing this up except for you. Are you trying to tell me how I meant something to come across? So now you're a mind manipulator? Amusing.

No, dearie. I don't read minds. I read words. Here are some of yours:

"anyone who doesn't find out they are pregnant within two months is just...dumb"

"Also, the day after you have sex, even if you used a contraceptive, you should be checking to see if you're pregnant."

"And after a month, when you don't get your period, you should be checking again. Really, if you don't take these precautions regularly and don't notice your own biological signs, you're just stupid and asking for trouble."

"And the plethora of other biological signs that come with pregnancy? You're simply ignoring those, aren't you?"

"And once again, after having sex, you should be checking yourself, even if you used contraceptives."

Seriously, it's okay just to admit you didn't know what you were talking about. People will respect you more for backing down from an indefensible position than for trying to claim that, for example, when you said, "And after a month, when you don't get your period, you should be checking again," you were TOTALLY AWARE that many women will still get their period while pregnant, and that when you said "the day after you have sex," you totally meant "not the day after you have sex" and anyone who interpreted "the day after you have sex" to mean "the day after you have sex" rather than "not the day after you have sex" is just "manipulating minds."

I mean, you can keep this up if you want. It's pretty entertaining. But I think it'd be wiser to back down gracefully, educate yourself, and remind yourself that in future, it might be smart to make sure you know what you're talking about before proposing legislation based on your misunderstandings of biology.

Well, then I'm glad to amuse you.

Expressions are expressions. I've already pointed out that post was an expression. It's only through your own ignorance that you continue to try and argue otherwise.

As for periods, periods do stop when pregnant. What you may be talking about is vaginal bleeding. This is different.

But it's okay dearie if you don't understand.

[Georgism]

Yes. Just as pacifists pay for the military, anarchists pay for the police and racists pay Obama's salary.

We shouldn't be paying for the military either.

lol

inb4CMorsomeone

[Alien Space Bats]

If a woman has health care coverage through work (or her husband does), how is that YOU paying for her abortion?!?

Life imitates art... or something.

The bill prohibits taxpayer funding of abortions. It makes the Hyde Amendment permanent.

Oh, it does MUCH more than that, Bucky.

Main Street Insider's summary can be found on the web. By banning the "expenditure of Federal funds" on health insurance policies that cover abortion, and then defining tax write-offs as "Federal expenditures", the bill reaches into the wallets of every American family and into the accounts of every American business to say, in essence, "if you buy a health insurance policy that covers abortion, you cannot write that policy off on your individual or corporate taxes."

In light of the bullshit that the House tried to pull with Planned Parenthood (which doesn't use Federal dollars to perform abortions, but performs them with monies that it gets elsewhere), the obvious extension of the Hyde Amendment to every god-damned American household and business boardroom is as sure as the day is long: If I spend my money on abortion, and I pay taxes, then I'm spending Federal money on abortion, and that's against the law.

The bill is an abomination. It needs to be voted down.

The old Hyde Amendment was just fine, thank you. You can make that permanent if you want; you don't need to be reaching your fingers into everybody else's wallets, declaring what you find there to be "your" money, and then telling people what they can and cannot do with that portion of "your" money that they just happen to own.

[The Norwegian Blue]

No, dearie. I don't read minds. I read words. Here are some of yours:

"anyone who doesn't find out they are pregnant within two months is just...dumb"

"Also, the day after you have sex, even if you used a contraceptive, you should be checking to see if you're pregnant."

"And after a month, when you don't get your period, you should be checking again. Really, if you don't take these precautions regularly and don't notice your own biological signs, you're just stupid and asking for trouble."

"And the plethora of other biological signs that come with pregnancy? You're simply ignoring those, aren't you?"

"And once again, after having sex, you should be checking yourself, even if you used contraceptives."

Seriously, it's okay just to admit you didn't know what you were talking about. People will respect you more for backing down from an indefensible position than for trying to claim that, for example, when you said, "And after a month, when you don't get your period, you should be checking again," you were TOTALLY AWARE that many women will still get their period while pregnant, and that when you said "the day after you have sex," you totally meant "not the day after you have sex" and anyone who interpreted "the day after you have sex" to mean "the day after you have sex" rather than "not the day after you have sex" is just "manipulating minds."

I mean, you can keep this up if you want. It's pretty entertaining. But I think it'd be wiser to back down gracefully, educate yourself, and remind yourself that in future, it might be smart to make sure you know what you're talking about before proposing legislation based on your misunderstandings of biology.

Well, then I'm glad to amuse you.

Expressions are expressions. I've already pointed out that post was an expression. It's only through your own ignorance that you continue to try and argue otherwise.

As for periods, periods do stop when pregnant. What you may be talking about is vaginal bleeding. This is different.

But it's okay dearie if you don't understand.

I adore the notion that "vaginal bleeding" is different from the common conception of "getting your period" in such a way that every pregnant woman, in your mind, will look at her blood-soaked tampon and say, "Oh, hey, I must be pregnant, because this is vaginal bleeding, not a period!"

And do feel free at any time to tell us what exactly "the day after you have sex" is an "expression" of.

Please, keep this up. It's wonderful.

[Alien Space Bats]

I adore the notion that "vaginal bleeding" is different from the common conception of "getting your period" in such a way that every pregnant woman, in your mind, will look at her blood-soaked tampon and say, "Oh, hey, I must be pregnant, because this is vaginal bleeding, not a period!"

And do feel free at any time to tell us what exactly "the day after you have sex" is an "expression" of.

Please, keep this up. It's wonderful.

I like the whole "man tells a woman how her body works" part of this even better, myself...

[The Chaos Heart]

Well, then I'm glad to amuse you.

Expressions are expressions. I've already pointed out that post was an expression. It's only through your own ignorance that you continue to try and argue otherwise.

As for periods, periods do stop when pregnant. What you may be talking about is vaginal bleeding. This is different.

But it's okay dearie if you don't understand.

I adore the notion that "vaginal bleeding" is different from the common conception of "getting your period" in such a way that every pregnant woman, in your mind, will look at her blood-soaked tampon and say, "Oh, hey, I must be pregnant, because this is vaginal bleeding, not a period!"

And do feel free at any time to tell us what exactly "the day after you have sex" is an "expression" of.

Please, keep this up. It's wonderful.

Are you trying to dispute the fact that vaginal bleeding and menstruation are different? lol.

Even a site as petty as Answers.com knows better than you.

As for an expression, day after obviously does not mean the literal "day after". But soon after. It's like saying "I'll be a minute" when you need about 5 minutes. That was my intent. Really now, the fact that you are trying to debate my intent is funny. You know my intentions better than I do?

But do go on. What completely ignorant comment will you make next? I've got all day.

[The Chaos Heart]

In regards to their similarities, a woman should not assume they are not pregnant simply because they bleed, as it could in fact be vaginal bleeding. Once again, doing so is just a sign of ignorance.

[The Chaos Heart]

I adore the notion that "vaginal bleeding" is different from the common conception of "getting your period" in such a way that every pregnant woman, in your mind, will look at her blood-soaked tampon and say, "Oh, hey, I must be pregnant, because this is vaginal bleeding, not a period!"

And do feel free at any time to tell us what exactly "the day after you have sex" is an "expression" of.

Please, keep this up. It's wonderful.

I like the whole "man tells a woman how her body works" part of this even better, myself...

Yes, because human beings are obviously experts about their own biology, and it's impossible, for instance, that someone could know more than you do about your own body.

[Georgism]

In regards to their similarities, a woman should not assume they are not pregnant simply because they bleed, as it could in fact be vaginal bleeding. Once again, doing so is just a sign of ignorance.

Is the bleeding accompanied by any of the following?:

- Prickling, tingling nipples
- Spotting and cramping
- Feeling sick
- Tender, swollen breasts
- Fatigue
- Needing to pee frequently
- Darkening of your nipples
- Altered sense of taste
- A positive home pregnancy test

If yes then you may be pregnant.

[Ashmoria]

The old Hyde Amendment was just fine, thank you. You can make that permanent if you want; you don't need to be reaching your fingers into everybody else's wallets, declaring what you find there to be "your" money, and then telling people what they can and cannot do with that portion of "your" money that they just happen to own.

what about this dont you understand

MONEY NOT COLLECTED is the same as spending that money on abortion (or drugs and hookers for that matter) so it has to be barred.

**edit**
in fact, now that i think about it, we should have a 100% tax rate so the state can send us back the money we need to live on and bar us from spending it on things the state doesnt like on the grounds that it is tax money.

[Alien Space Bats]

The old Hyde Amendment was just fine, thank you. You can make that permanent if you want; you don't need to be reaching your fingers into everybody else's wallets, declaring what you find there to be "your" money, and then telling people what they can and cannot do with that portion of "your" money that they just happen to own.

what about this dont you understand

MONEY NOT COLLECTED is the same as spending that money on abortion (or drugs and hookers for that matter) so it has to be barred.

A little sarcasm there?

<gulps>

I hope?

---

You know, it occurs to me that this is a tax increase on people who have insurance policies that cover abortions (or on people pay for abortions out of pocket). And here I was thinking the GOP didn't support any tax increases...

in fact, now that i think about it, we should have a 100% tax rate so the state can send us back the money we need to live on and bar us from spending it on things the state doesnt like on the grounds that it is tax money.

They'll repay it in Stork Bucks.

Of course, the government can't be trusted with that money either. We'll have to give it all to people earning over $1,000,000 a year in the form of highly progressive Unearned Income Credit (UIC), so that they can use it to give us good low-paying, dead-end jobs.

[Ashmoria]

what about this dont you understand

MONEY NOT COLLECTED is the same as spending that money on abortion (or drugs and hookers for that matter) so it has to be barred.

A little sarcasm there?

<gulps>

I hope?

---

You know, it occurs to me that this is a tax increase on people who have insurance policies that cover abortions (or on people pay for abortions out of pocket). And here I was thinking the GOP didn't support any tax increases...

expecting that you noticed my edit...

noooooooooo not sarcastic at all. at the end of the year we would submit ALL our expenses to an IRS agent to review to make sure we didnt spend "tax" money on frivolous items. same as how under this bill if a woman used her medical savings account (whatever its really called) to pay for an abortion she has to prove to an IRS agent that it was needed in order to save her life.

[Tekania]

The old Hyde Amendment was just fine, thank you. You can make that permanent if you want; you don't need to be reaching your fingers into everybody else's wallets, declaring what you find there to be "your" money, and then telling people what they can and cannot do with that portion of "your" money that they just happen to own.

what about this dont you understand

MONEY NOT COLLECTED is the same as spending that money on abortion (or drugs and hookers for that matter) so it has to be barred.

**edit**
in fact, now that i think about it, we should have a 100% tax rate so the state can send us back the money we need to live on and bar us from spending it on things the state doesnt like on the grounds that it is tax money.

Agreed, therefore in the interest of human rights and the rights of each individual life form, the state should confiscate all money from everyone, and then redistribute it in accordance with the will of the politburoticians in Washington. The Hyde Admendment makes perfect sense, if you're a communist... The Republicans should love this one...

Looks like at this point we need to replace all the Republican repaints of Obama as Chavez with people like Eric Cantor.

[Ashmoria]

Of course, the government can't be trusted with that money either. We'll have to give it all to people earning over $1,000,000 a year in the form of highly progressive Unearned Income Credit (UIC), so that they can use it to give us good low-paying, dead-end jobs.

its like you are a freaking genius

THEY ARE THE JOB CREATORS. they need that money.

jobs jobs jobs.