Bin Laden is dead Megathread

[Maurepas]

If the Pakistani security forces told me the sun was going to rise tommorow, I would have to call NASA to confirm it.

Amen, brother.

And for whatever reason we're sending them money. I think we'd be better off cutting them out, and getting in with the Indians, personally.

[Andaluciae]

Yes, he was unarmed, big fucking deal. Did you not read what I said earlier? How do you know he wasn't grabbing for something? How do you know somebody else in the house or even in the room wasn't armed? Yes, ignoring the ISI and the 12 yr. old girl's comments.

Oh right, I forgot. When you storm a compound in a hostile area looking after a guy who is responsible for the death of at least 3,000 civilians, you gently burst into a room, though not too hard since you obviously don't want to startle anyone or damage anything; followed by a search of the room, once you gain the written consent of those inside; and after spending about two and a half hours doing this, then you go into "serious" mode and start shooting everybody. That's not how it happens or works. I repeat "NOT HOW IT HAPPENS."

Imagine you are a navy seal, landing in a compound, you are moving through a dark hallway, you hear noises, shots are fired, you shoot back, you burst into a room and you see the target, he looks like he's grabbing for something, you are unclear of what, so you take the shot knowing that if it's a gun or bomb, it's going to be you.

That's how it happens. Okay? It's not some gentle, take your time kind of shit. It's quick, it's stressful, and you don't take a chance, especially with a guy like this. Because you don't know what he is going to do.

On one side, you have an unarmed old sick man, on the other side a well trained team of Navy Seals, specialised in all kind of combat techniques.

IMHO, it isn't that hard to immobilize the bastard, whatever he’s trying and alive.

They could have shot in his legs, by instance. If you ask me, they didn't want to capture him alive. You'll see that when the cheering is over, questions will raise.

I feel like a little too much "Call of Duty" went into the construction of this post.

[Rowandel]

Amen, brother.

And for whatever reason we're sending them money. I think we'd be better off cutting them out, and getting in with the Indians, personally.

As much as I agree, there's no way in HELL we can do that NOW. We just stormed into their country, raped shit up, and left, THEN told them... We CAN'T cut ties with them.

[Rowandel]

So... If we had killed Hitler, it wouldn't have been a big deal?

Well the Soviets ended up getting him. I guess it would be a big deal, because a deal was made to let them have Berlin in return for helping us in the Pacific, which they never got around to doing.

But, of course, we gave them Berlin ANYWAY, and look how well THAT went

[Maurepas]

And for whatever reason we're sending them money. I think we'd be better off cutting them out, and getting in with the Indians, personally.

As much as I agree, there's no way in HELL we can do that NOW. We just stormed into their country, raped shit up, and left, THEN told them... We CAN'T cut ties with them.

Actually, we haven't done that to Pakistan. And, honestly, what's Afghanistan gonna do if we did that to them? Nothing. Vietnam had a more organized military and good reason to hate us as well: They're one of our bigger trading partners today.

[Rowandel]

As much as I agree, there's no way in HELL we can do that NOW. We just stormed into their country, raped shit up, and left, THEN told them... We CAN'T cut ties with them.

Actually, we haven't done that to Pakistan. And, honestly, what's Afghanistan gonna do if we did that to them? Nothing. Vietnam had a more organized military and good reason to hate us as well: They're one of our bigger trading partners today.

Hmm... Point taken.

[Ashmoria]

I love how he was hiding in a $1,000,000 mansion. Now do we honestly think America didn't see it? A 1m compound right outside the perimeter of what looks like a favela. I mean lets be honest no one is that stupid. Precisley when this had been going for like 10 years. So I connect the dots with 400 terriosts escaping and the death of Osama. He could of kept hiding I don't know what was stopping America from just going in and killing him before (Besides Pakistans permission) buy I'll let you be creative but I believe that they agreed to release those 400 prisoners in exchange for the life of Osama. Its only logical (from the news I have heard thus far) that they have not recaptured or even chased down one (runaway terriost).

As a former employee of the defense establishment: Are you fucking kidding me? I'm flatters you think so much of our skills, but your expectations are severely misplaced.

what? are you saying that we dont know the inhabitants of every dwelling on earth??

[Ashmoria]

I imagine the circumstances are harder than we really understand. For example, was he reaching for a weapon? Was the woman he was with? Were the children? Did he try to push or grab something when he was told to stop?

We assume (also don't post big ass pics on posts) from some bare facts the reality of the case, when we really just don't know. In the heat of things, you're aren't being overly cautious, you are making sure you accomplish your mission, that your team and you live. I know it has become somewhat of a cliche in counter-terrorist shows, but they hold some truth in them. Accidents happen. But again, we really don't have enough details.

The 12 year old daughter of Bin Laden said on TV station Al Arabiya that her father was captured alive and shot a few minutes later.
The Pakistani security services also said that there were no weapons in the house and that no one shoot to the American forces.

If you ask me, this is just an execution. It doesn't matter if Bin Laden was guilty or not. Probably he was, but the whole thing looks dirty.

good

i dont care if he was on his knees with his fingers locked behind his head.

oops

hes dead.

[Vault 1]

So...is Hitler dead? How about Genghis Khan? No bodies, no pictures. They must still be alive.

There have been multiple witness accounts on Hitler's death.

All we know here is that US stormed a compound, shot some Arab, then said it's OBL. The last time they at least bothered with pics. It may well be that they were actually going after OBL, got someone else, then decided to say it's OBL anyway. Doesn't matter.

When they got Hussein, it was all public, in the open, with video coverage, and he was buried in the ground, no bullshit. And Saddam definitely had more supporters than Osama, which are still fighting in Iraq; no one doubts the latter is or was a bad guy. This whole coverup just doesn't smell right and I'm not eating it.

[EnragedMaldivians]

I love how he was hiding in a $1,000,000 mansion. Now do we honestly think America didn't see it? A 1m compound right outside the perimeter of what looks like a favela. I mean lets be honest no one is that stupid. Precisley when this had been going for like 10 years. So I connect the dots with 400 terriosts escaping and the death of Osama. He could of kept hiding I don't know what was stopping America from just going in and killing him before (Besides Pakistans permission) buy I'll let you be creative but I believe that they agreed to release those 400 prisoners in exchange for the life of Osama. Its only logical (from the news I have heard thus far) that they have not recaptured or even chased down one (runaway terriost).

As a former employee of the defense establishment: Are you fucking kidding me? I'm flatters you think so much of our skills, but your expectations are severely misplaced.

It is however, appropriate to hold the relavant Pakistani branches of government and their intelligence services to higher expectations.

[Ashmoria]

So...is Hitler dead? How about Genghis Khan? No bodies, no pictures. They must still be alive.

There have been multiple witness accounts on Hitler's death.

All we know here is that US stormed a compound, shot some Arab, then said it's OBL. The last time they at least bothered with pics. It may well be that they were actually going after OBL, got someone else, then decided to say it's OBL anyway. Doesn't matter.

When they got Hussein, it was all public, in the open, with video coverage, and he was buried in the ground, no bullshit. And Saddam definitely had more supporters than Osama, which are still fighting in Iraq; no one doubts the latter is or was a bad guy. This whole coverup just doesn't smell right and I'm not eating it.

yeah whatever

what doesnt smell right is that a DEMOCRAT got the most wanted man in the world.

it would be stupid on a massive scale to pretend to kill a man who could then come foward at any time to prove the president a liar.

[Vault 1]

it would be stupid on a massive scale to pretend to kill a man who could then come foward at any time to prove the president a liar.

Obama is known to be a habitual liar as it is, what's one more time?

Even so, that's only a factor if we are to assume Osama is still alive and well. Nothing has been heard from him in a LONG while. In the case that he is alive, him coming out will certainly get him killed for real. Actually, if that happens, I'll applaud Obama's ingenuity in getting his namesake.

[Utopia FTW]

You guys heard of the new Drink that's popular right now?
The "the osama bin laden" or OBL. (2 shots, and a splash of water)

[The Alma Mater]

what doesnt smell right is that a DEMOCRAT got the most wanted man in the world.

What - you thought Bush would arrest and kill his good buddy Osama ? Come on - they were BFFs ! One does not do such things.

[Ashmoria]

it would be stupid on a massive scale to pretend to kill a man who could then come foward at any time to prove the president a liar.

Obama is known to be a habitual liar as it is, what's one more time?

Even so, that's only a factor if we are to assume Osama is still alive and well. Nothing has been heard from him in a LONG while. In the case that he is alive, him coming out will certainly get him killed for real. Actually, if that happens, I'll applaud Obama's ingenuity in getting his namesake.

uhhuh

[Ashmoria]

what doesnt smell right is that a DEMOCRAT got the most wanted man in the world.

What - you thought Bush would arrest and kill his good buddy Osama ? Come on - they were BFFs ! One does not do such things.

i was sorta enamored of the "binladen's body in the freezer at the whitehouse" theory of whatever happened to him.

i was surprised by his death. pleasanlty surprised.

[Andaluciae]

So...is Hitler dead? How about Genghis Khan? No bodies, no pictures. They must still be alive.

There have been multiple witness accounts on Hitler's death.

All of them being Nazis, who definitely had an interest in covering for Hitler so he could get away from Germany.

All we know here is that US stormed a compound, shot some Arab, then said it's OBL. The last time they at least bothered with pics. It may well be that they were actually going after OBL, got someone else, then decided to say it's OBL anyway. Doesn't matter.

That's definitely more than we have for Hitler. Some German guy, in a Besieged city, wound up with a bullet in his head. Then, his body was lit on fire, so it was pretty much unrecognizable. For all we know, the Soviets could have captured the body of Hans Muellerschmidt, who was nothing more than a glazier who was looking to a particularly profitable career replacing windows after the war was over.

When they got Hussein, it was all public, in the open, with video coverage, and he was buried in the ground, no bullshit. And Saddam definitely had more supporters than Osama, which are still fighting in Iraq; no one doubts the latter is or was a bad guy. This whole coverup just doesn't smell right and I'm not eating it.

Regardless of the very real differences in the circumstances surrounding capture of Hussein and bin Laden:

Hussein: In a country occupied by the United States, bin Laden: Not so much.
Hussein: Captured in a massive on-the-ground mission, bin Laden: Airborne assault from helicopters.
Hussein: Hidden in a spider hole, opting for the "please don't notice me" approach, bin Laden: Shot in a bedroom, in the midst of combat.
Hussein: Legal environment certain--to be tried in Iraq, bin Laden: What the fuck do we do with this guy?

and the kicker...
Hussein: Bush aka "Captain Bombastic", bin Laden: Obama

[Vault 1]

That's definitely more than we have for Hitler.

Really? I'm curious. What are you referring to by "that"?

What do we have, other than BHO saying "Hay guise i killed OBL derp"?

Regardless of the very real differences in the circumstances surrounding capture of Hussein and bin Laden:

Yes, regardless of the very different circumstances, the refusal to show the body or a picture of it to anyone is a pretty clear sign that something isn't right.

Hussein: Legal environment certain--to be tried in Iraq, bin Laden: What the fuck do we do with this guy?

US currently operates more c-camps than any other nation, so the same as what's being done with captured terrorist suspects. It's not like US ever cared for jurisdictional issues.

and the kicker...
Hussein: Bush aka "Captain Bombastic", bin Laden: Obama

So?

[Andaluciae]

That's definitely more than we have for Hitler.

Really? I'm curious. What are you referring to by "that"?

What do we have, other than BHO saying "Hay guise i killed OBL derp"?

Besides the fact that the President of the United States seems a substantially more credible witness than just some random Nazi fuckwads?

Regardless, there's other evidence floating around, including the information that the SEALS seized, the Tweeter who saw this happen, the cohabitants of the building, the courier...

Regardless of the very real differences in the circumstances surrounding capture of Hussein and bin Laden:

Yes, regardless of the very different circumstances, the refusal to show the body or a picture of it to anyone is a pretty clear sign that something isn't right.

It's a clear sign that a picture of a guy who's just been shot through the head isn't exactly PG-13, and releasing said photos might not be entirely wise.

Hussein: Legal environment certain--to be tried in Iraq, bin Laden: What the fuck do we do with this guy?

US currently operates more c-camps than any other nation, so the same as what's being done with captured terrorist suspects. It's not like US ever cared for jurisdictional issues.

There's something more fundamental going on here than mere concerns about trials and jurisdictional issues. This is Osama bin Laden we're talking about, and there's a very real qualitative difference between him and even Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and the discussion on how to deal with him has been under way for close to a decade, with no resolution as yet.

And c-camps? Do you stutter when you type or something?

and the kicker...
Hussein: Bush aka "Captain Bombastic", bin Laden: Obama

So?

[/quote]

Image and perception, while important for all politicians, were exceptionally important for President Bush, especially when it comes to the macho, and being perceived as such. Getting big-time coverage of capturing Saddam Hussein was a vitally important part of Operation Red Dawn. With bin Laden, the goal was to either capture or kill--not to get pretty pictures of the President's shiny new toy.

And how about the fact that Red Dawn involved a very large portion of the 4th ID, complete with designated translators and photojournalists, whereas this involved a small mix of SEAL Team Six and some CIA folks?

[Andaluciae]

Addendum: Apparently the Pakistanis are interrogating the people who were left behind at the compound, so Vault, you'll be getting your witnesses soon.

[Vault 1]

Besides the fact that the President of the United States seems a substantially more credible witness than just some random Nazi fuckwads?

A professional liar from a country that already made the exact same lie before?
No, he doesn't.

Regardless, there's other evidence floating around, including the information that the SEALS seized, the Tweeter who saw this happen, the cohabitants of the building, the courier...

All anyone has seen - at least anyone who came out publicly - is US forces storming a home and killing some Arabs.

This is Osama bin Laden we're talking about

Big deal. A retired terrorist leader famous mostly for one act.

And c-camps? Do you stutter when you type or something?

Shorthand for concentration. I don't use the term because of the analogy, but in function, this is what they are, camps serving for collecting suspects.

Image and perception, while important for all politicians, were exceptionally important for President Bush,

Much less so than for Obama. He's ultra-populist, he's a professional speaker, he's constantly trying to appear to cater to everyone.

[Andaluciae]

Besides the fact that the President of the United States seems a substantially more credible witness than just some random Nazi fuckwads?

A professional liar from a country that already made the exact same lie before?
No, he doesn't.

Eh? The US has claimed to have killed bin Laden before?

Regardless, there's other evidence floating around, including the information that the SEALS seized, the Tweeter who saw this happen, the cohabitants of the building, the courier...

All anyone has seen - at least anyone who came out publicly - is US forces storming a home and killing some Arabs.

And the surrounding circumstances, of a house with an abnormally high, razor-wire topped wall, that lacked telephone and internet access, that burned their garbage and that had limited access to the outside through exterior windows. Not to mention, the fact that it is constructed of quite superior materials--what you'd expect out of the home of any bin Laden family member.

This is Osama bin Laden we're talking about

Big deal. A retired terrorist leader famous mostly for one act.

Hardly on all counts. Al Qaeda as an organization has committed a wide variety of mega-attacks around the world, deliberately designed to not only kill a lot of people, but to create devastating second-order effects. Take a look at the bombing of the Al Askari Mosque in Samarra, an attack that is widely credited with being the spark that started the Iraqi Civil War.

Above and beyond that, the Kenya-Tanzania Embassy Bombings, the Khobar Towers Bombing, USS Cole, July 7 in London, The Madrid Train Bombings, Istanbul, Sharm El Sheikh, Bali...etc.

Further, Osama bin Laden wasn't "a retired terrorist leader" in any possible comprehension of the word retired. He remained fully active within the leadership of Al Qaeda as the spiritual guide and primary provider of legitimacy.

And c-camps? Do you stutter when you type or something?

Shorthand for concentration. I don't use the term because of the analogy, but in function, this is what they are, camps serving for collecting suspects.

Gotcha. I think KZ as shorthand for a concentration camp--although I'm uncertain if that's that proper term for the secret prison system the CIA has been using.

Image and perception, while important for all politicians, were exceptionally important for President Bush,

Much less so than for Obama. He's ultra-populist, he's a professional speaker, he's constantly trying to appear to cater to everyone.

Bush targeted a particular segment of the American population towards which that particular brand of showmanship was more useful--take a look at Dukakis if you want to see what happens when you send macho messages to the wrong people.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

The more details we learn the more questions I have and the more this looks like it was more about revenge than justice. Did you know there were children, 12 and younger, in the room when Bin Laden was killed. The children are saying that they saw Bin Laden being bound and gagged and then shot in front of them. Though the White House currently disputes this.
This report, from the news media, is disturbing and does not reflect on well on my country. Even if your goal really is just a revenge killing or simply to kill him to boost the President's ratings, it is a human rights violation to kill any person in front of small children if they are unarmed.

At a minimum it would constitute an egregious form of child abuse. If true, then the people who killed bin laden are not safe to be allowed around small children.

[Vault 1]

Eh? The US has claimed to have killed bin Laden before?

You didn't know? The government went even further, to claim a capture. This time just a kill.

And the surrounding circumstances, of a house with an abnormally high, razor-wire topped wall...

Could be expected of a lot of people that have enemies. Chances are, even actually a terrorist supporter.

What most likely happened is that US got intel that Osama is dead, so the government won't be embarrassed the second time. They raided someone, likely actually linked to Al Qaeda or a part of it. Then shot him up beyond recognition, dumped into the sea, and claimed they killed Osama.

I mean, I'd do the same thing in Obama's shoes. Can't have terrorists celebrating the 10th Anniversary and Osama's victory.

Further, Osama bin Laden wasn't "a retired terrorist leader" in any possible comprehension of the word retired. He remained fully active within the leadership of Al Qaeda as the spiritual guide and primary provider of legitimacy.

Nothing has been heard of him or from him for years. Much unlike his very public presence before.

[Andaluciae]

Eh? The US has claimed to have killed bin Laden before?

You didn't know? The government went even further, to claim a capture. This time just a kill.

Soooooooouuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrccccccccccceeeeeeeee.

Or, in other words, "Pics, or it didn't happen."

And the surrounding circumstances, of a house with an abnormally high, razor-wire topped wall...

Could be expected of a lot of people that have enemies. Chances are, even actually a terrorist supporter.

What most likely happened is that US got intel that Osama is dead, so the government won't be embarrassed the second time. They raided someone, likely actually linked to Al Qaeda or a part of it. Then shot him up beyond recognition, dumped into the sea, and claimed they killed Osama.

I mean, I'd do the same thing in Obama's shoes. Can't have terrorists celebrating the 10th Anniversary and Osama's victory.

Evidenz?

Further, Osama bin Laden wasn't "a retired terrorist leader" in any possible comprehension of the word retired. He remained fully active within the leadership of Al Qaeda as the spiritual guide and primary provider of legitimacy.

Nothing has been heard of him or from him for years. Much unlike his very public presence before.

You mean since January. Just because you weren't paying attention doesn't mean it didn't happen.