Bin Laden is dead Megathread

[EnragedMaldivians]

I don't believe that Osama Bin Laden was the sole creator of Al Qaeda's ideals,

Believe all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Osama bin Laden was the charismatic figurehead who guided Al Qaeda by the force of his personality, and the conviction of his beliefs. While operational leadership, like Zawahiri and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed orchestrated the attacks, holding what was essentially wisps of fog together required something else entirely, something that only bin Laden has been able to deliver.

soon another leader will arise from the ranks and Al Qaeda be powerfull again, the noses are already aiming in the same direction... America and the western countries

Al Qaeda is finished. It's all but extinct in Pakistan, it's thoroughly repudiated in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, it's been largely assimilated by the Taliban in Pakistan. What wisps of cells remain scattered, cohered to the organization out of an idea that was, essentially, incorporate with Osama bin Laden.

Not only that, but the broader Arab public has flatly rejected both the method of achieving their goals, the vision of the world that Al Qaeda has put forward. The swamp is being drained, faster than we could have ever expected.

Maybe someday an organization closely akin to Al Qaeda will spring up, but Al Qaeda is finished.

Fareed Zakaria shares your sentiments

By Fareed Zakaria, CNN

In the wake of Osama bin Laden’s death, a number of people are saying that this does not mean that al Qaeda has been destroyed. Some argue that the organization may, in fact, be thriving. Front-page articles in both The New York Times and The Washington Post make this claim. Many officials from Obama downward are saying this.

I understand why officials have to say this. They want to be cautious. They don’t want to overpromise.
But the truth is this is a huge, devastating blow to al Qaeda, which had already been crippled by the Arab Spring. It is not an exaggeration to say that this is the end of al Qaeda in any meaningful sense of the word.

Al Qaeda is not an organization that commands massive resources. It doesn’t have a big army. It doesn’t have vast reservoirs of funds that it can direct easily across the world.

Al Qaeda was an idea and an ideology, symbolized by an extremely charismatic figure in Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden was this Saudi prince-like figure who had gone into the mountains of Afghanistan forsaking the riches of a multibillion-dollar fortune, fought against the Soviets, demonstrated personal bravery and then crafted a seductive message about Islam and Islamic extremism as a path to destroy the corrupt regimes of the Middle East.

History teaches us that the loss of the charismatic leader - of the symbol - is extraordinarily damaging for the organization. It is very difficult to keep such an organization together, particularly in the absence of great power backers.

In the case of al Qaeda, this is a virtual organization held together by its message and the inspiration it provided. A large part of that inspiration was bin Laden. Ayman Zawahiri may have been the brains behind the outfit, but he did not excite people. When people volunteered for jihad, they were volunteering to be bin Laden’s foot soldiers, not Ayman Zawahiri’s or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s. The loss of bin Laden’s personality is hugely important because it was so much part of al Qaeda’s appeal.

In addition, we must remember that the death of bin Laden is not occurring in a vacuum. The Arab Awakening has already crippled the basic rationale of al Qaeda. Al Qaeda existed because bin Laden argued that the regimes of the Arab world were dictatorial and oppressive. He argued that the United States was supporting those regimes and, as a result, Muslims had to engage in terrorism against the United States and those regimes. He claimed that the only way to achieve change was through violence, terrorism and Islamic extremism.

In the past few months, we have seen democratic, peaceful, non-Islamic revolutions transform Egypt and Tunisia. We are seeing these forces changing almost every government in the Arab world. Al Qaeda is not in the picture. So when you combine the Arab Spring with bin Laden’s death, you have a very powerful one-two punch to al Qaeda.

Certainly, there are groups of terrorists around the world, some of which now call themselves al Qaeda. These groups are loosely affiliated in some sense. But gangs of bad guys have always been around.

With the death of bin Laden, the central organizing ideology that presented an existential seduction to the Muslim world and an existential threat to the Western world is damaged beyond repair. We’re left with free-lance terrorists who will, of course, be able to inflict some harm. But the Somali pirates are able to inflict harm on civilians, and that doesn’t turn them into an existential threat to the Western world.

That existential threat is gone.

I invite you to share your thoughts below and to follow me on

He also bashes the Pakistani Government. Which is always a good thing, regardless of the occasion. They're playing a very dangerous game, with their disengenuous "co-operation".

[EnragedMaldivians]

For those of you that are amused by the gratuitous sanctimony of certain, holier than thou people - just hover your cursor over the top left and bottom left sections - and enjoy

Our disgusting National reaction... - hope the party was worth it guys.

Shame on you Mr. President - you have given into hate

[Ramalet]

Meh. I hope that the Arab Spring finally sorts itself out and they have truly democratic elections not 'American Democarcy' and then everyones like "Awww cool thanks guys you guys aren't as bad as that Osama guy said and to be fair he was a bit of a twat so I suppose we can be pals, yeah?" now that bin Laden's dead.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Meh. I hope that the Arab Spring finally sorts itself out and they have truly democratic elections not 'American Democarcy' and then everyones like "Awww cool thanks guys you guys aren't as bad as that Osama guy said and to be fair he was a bit of a twat so I suppose we can be pals, yeah?" now that bin Laden's dead.

Eh - "true" democracies for them would probably be a bad idea. Turkish "democracy" on the other hand would be wholly appropriate.

[Barbarica skate]

killin bin laden is the worst decision ever... their will be more terrorist attacks

How can there be more terrorist attacks if their leader is dead.

because they will find another leader... and this leader will learn from bin laden mistakes and plot more terroristic plots... duh

[Wamitoria]

How can there be more terrorist attacks if their leader is dead.

because they will find another leader... and this leader will learn from bin laden mistakes and plot more terroristic plots... duh

Not without his money they can't.

[Barbarica skate]

because they will find another leader... and this leader will learn from bin laden mistakes and plot more terroristic plots... duh

Not without his money they can't.

trust me... if they want to they will get money... they are terrorist... some dont even need money... they do it for the good of their country or for the good of their religion or whatever... if they want to, they will do it for free

[Lord Behemoth]

So, Ten years, and we got him. Will edit with updates as they come up.

Much longer than ten years.

[Lord Behemoth]

Not without his money they can't.

trust me... if they want to they will get money... they are terrorist... some dont even need money... they do it for the good of their country or for the good of their religion or whatever... if they want to, they will do it for free

They don't need to find another leader -- we still haven't found the true leader of the Taliban.
Usama Bin Laden was just their their bank.

[Wamitoria]

Not without his money they can't.

trust me...

Are you a national security expert?

Granted, neither am I, but your request that I "take your word for it" is rather ridiculous.

some dont even need money...

Guns, bullets, and C4 all cost money. That's not even including the various other goods needed to sustain a clandestine operation.

... if they want they will do it for free

See above.

[Great New Albion]

There probably will be more attacks. Bin Laden ended being leader of Al Qaeda when he went into hiding. It's Ayman al-Zawahiri who's been running Al Qaeda. Bin Laden was only the symbolic leader and founder of Al Qaeda. His death could be called a moral victory, he finnaly got what he deserved, but it's hardly put a dent in the Al-Qaeda command structure. Just made Al Qaeda vengeful.

The sight of Americans cheering the death of an old man (even if he was demented and evil psychopath ) is just disgraceful though. How are they better than those who cheered the attacks on 9/11 in the first place? Do not sink to his level.

But who will be the hate figure americans rally against now that they've killed their number one hated enemy?

[Nullivan]

The sight of Americans cheering the death of an old man (even if he was demented and evil psychopath ) is just disgraceful though. How are they better than those who cheered the attacks on 9/11 in the first place? Do not sink to his level.

Celebrating the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, whose only crime was being a convenient target, and celebrating the death of an evil mass murderer who has eluded capture for almost a decade are two completely different things.

[Andaluciae]

How can there be more terrorist attacks if their leader is dead.

because they will find another leader... and this leader will learn from bin laden mistakes and plot more terroristic plots... duh

People like Osama bin Laden are few and far between. The type who are able to spontaneously generate substantial "spiritual" followings behind themselves and their personalities. When a movement is a based on a singular personality as Al Qaeda was, it's hard to see there being a particularly clear spiritual successor, and it's hard to see how it can survive. Look at Al Qaeda in Iraq, and what happened after Zarqawi bit it--and AQI was a far more robust organization than Al Qaeda is as a whole.

[Barbarica skate]

trust me...

Are you a national security expert?

Granted, neither am I, but your request that I "take your word for it" is rather ridiculous.

some dont even need money...

Guns, bullets, and C4 all cost money. That's not even including the various other goods needed to sustain a clandestine operation.

... if they want they will do it for free

See above.

but now think about how many things you can use to make home made bombs... or think about how many terroristic plots they used without using bombs... some have made stuff that looks like bombs but are actually not bombs jus to scare people into giving them what they want... people have made something called a barrel gun. they can make alot of weapons out of things... it doesnt take alot to make a knife and start killing people... it jus takes a will and no conscience to do so... if somebody wanted to take someones life i think they would...

[Andaluciae]

Things this does do: It certainly lends credence to the claim that Mullah Omar received medical attention from the ISI in Pakistan earlier this year.

[Andaluciae]

Are you a national security expert?

Granted, neither am I, but your request that I "take your word for it" is rather ridiculous.
Guns, bullets, and C4 all cost money. That's not even including the various other goods needed to sustain a clandestine operation.
See above.

but now think about how many things you can use to make home made bombs... or think about how many terroristic plots they used without using bombs... some have made stuff that looks like bombs but are actually not bombs jus to scare people into giving them what they want... people have made something called a barrel gun. they can make alot of weapons out of things... it doesnt take alot to make a knife and start killing people... it jus takes a will and no conscience to do so... if somebody wanted to take someones life i think they would...

You can attack people with an improvised knife, but that will only last until the mall cop shows up with his fearsome .38 special.

[Cannot think of a name]

How can there be more terrorist attacks if their leader is dead.

because they will find another leader... and this leader will learn from bin laden mistakes and plot more terroristic plots... duh

Or the continued removal of leadership as well as the fundamental undermining of the root cause celebre of al Queda will start having a Peter Principle effect much in the same way that continual arrests had on American mafias to the point where they may still exist, but through attrition their 'bosses' became less and less the cream of the crop. Essentially, it's hard to recruit top people to a position that is largely fatal when the underlying principles of the organization are starting to crumble.

Yes, there will still be terrorists. Some of these terrorists will still call themselves al Queda. Yes, they will be able to harm innocent people. But it is questionable whether they will be able to continue to the extent and degree in which they have. I would say that the 'Arab Uprising' or spring or whatever euphemism will eventually be settled on, as already pointed out, will have a far more debilitating effect on al Queda than the death of their figure head and spiritual leader, but I quipped earlier in this thread, symbolic victories get short shrift when they do actually have value.

9/11 did not bring down the US, it did not cripple us or bring us any closer to capitulating in any real sense. But you cannot argue that it did not have a profound effect. While it momentarily brought us together, it has also done more to divide us than any recent event, it has been an excuse to strip ourselves of essential liberties, and it has brought our national attention, for good and for bad, on the Middle East and has shone a harsh spotlight on our government and the way in which we interact with these nations. All from a symbolic victory.

They have value. Dismissing them out of hand is just as foolish and blind as thinking they are the ends.

[Barbarica skate]

but now think about how many things you can use to make home made bombs... or think about how many terroristic plots they used without using bombs... some have made stuff that looks like bombs but are actually not bombs jus to scare people into giving them what they want... people have made something called a barrel gun. they can make alot of weapons out of things... it doesnt take alot to make a knife and start killing people... it jus takes a will and no conscience to do so... if somebody wanted to take someones life i think they would...

You can attack people with an improvised knife, but that will only last until the mall cop shows up with his fearsome .38 special.

lol but i guess that will be the end of that terrorist...lol

[Serrland]

Panetta came out in an interview with Time and said that "...it was decided that any effort to work with the Pakistanis could jeopardize the mission: They might alert the targets..."

I can't help but think these comments were ran past someone at the White House first.

[edit: source: http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 70918.html ]

[Sdaeriji]

because they will find another leader... and this leader will learn from bin laden mistakes and plot more terroristic plots... duh

People like Osama bin Laden are few and far between. The type who are able to spontaneously generate substantial "spiritual" followings behind themselves and their personalities. When a movement is a based on a singular personality as Al Qaeda was, it's hard to see there being a particularly clear spiritual successor, and it's hard to see how it can survive. Look at Al Qaeda in Iraq, and what happened after Zarqawi bit it--and AQI was a far more robust organization than Al Qaeda is as a whole.

Bin Laden's major contribution was legitimacy. He was a man who was on the ground in Afghanistan against the Soviets. He had first hand experience with defeating an imperialist force in the Muslim world. The present generation of al Qaeda leadership doesn't have that. Their current command structure may not be overly impacted, but future recruiting has been severely damaged.

[Andaluciae]

People like Osama bin Laden are few and far between. The type who are able to spontaneously generate substantial "spiritual" followings behind themselves and their personalities. When a movement is a based on a singular personality as Al Qaeda was, it's hard to see there being a particularly clear spiritual successor, and it's hard to see how it can survive. Look at Al Qaeda in Iraq, and what happened after Zarqawi bit it--and AQI was a far more robust organization than Al Qaeda is as a whole.

Bin Laden's major contribution was legitimacy. He was a man who was on the ground in Afghanistan against the Soviets. He had first hand experience with defeating an imperialist force in the Muslim world. The present generation of al Qaeda leadership doesn't have that. Their current command structure may not be overly impacted, but future recruiting has been severely damaged.

Nice way to put it. I've been trying to drive at the spiritual force that he brought to Al Qaeda, and his legitimacy in regards to the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan is definitely a very, very large part of it.

[Andaluciae]

I can't resist the opportunity to poke fun at RT. Alex Jones as a legitimate news commentator? Are you fucking kidding me?

Not only that, but take a gander at the first paragraph of this particularly insane piece. Bin Laden is a mythical monster from the sea, who must be returned to the sea? Are we smoking rocks here, folks?

They have an honest to god circus going on over there, and it's really kind of bizarre--a new variety of freak show.

[SpudEmpire]

Pakistan is about to come under a lot of scrutiny, Bin Laden was withing an earshot of Islamabad and was within sight of the nation's primary military academy. Either the Pakistani government is really that incompetent or they were complicit, either way it doesn't look good.

[PurdleDurdle]

so, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks has finally had justice brought to him. In a gesture of good will toward the Muslim religion, and it's adherants, the U.S. Navy provided Osama a burial at sea (after Saudi Arabia refused his remains) in accordance with Muslim law. So How would you have buried him?

Me, I would have cut off his male member, placed it in his mouth (so he'd be sucking d*ck for eternity). Chop off his head, and force it up his arse, smear his body with spam, and wrap it in raw bacon. Then finally inter him in a football, buried under the biggest pig pen I could find.

Maybe that's why I'm not a real statesman.

How would you bury him?

[Farnhamia]

In the existing Megathread. And yeah, a statesman you're not.