Privatized police department.

[Seangoli]

It doesn't matter what you think.

You sell your company all goes with it. No company on the planet is going to buy your company and allow you take their money and set up another one doing the same thing.

Note to self, never sell chairs. Someone else has already thought of a chair.
I am such an idiot!

Intellectual property expires, I believe.

[Sdaeriji]

First and foremost, grow up. It is perfectly legitimate to allow someone better versed and more articulate in a particular nuance of your opinion on a particular subject that you share with them to speak for you. Your criticism is the same sort of nonsense one might expect to hear from someone claiming that burning a cd is theft somehow. It ain't. Copying ain't stealing. Using someone else's sources and crediting them with it ain't illegitimate.

If I wanted to debate with random YouTube guy whose sources I can't even view, I would post on the YouTube comments of his shitty video. If Sibirsky makes a statement, I expect him to back it up, not link to a shitty YouTube video. If you or Sibirsky are not comfortable with the general conventions of this forum, then I recommend posting elsewhere.

You just got pissy b/c Sib made clear his position on the subject and provided a convenient video that presented a man better versed and more thorough than you were prepared for.

I cannot have a discussion with random YouTube guy. If I refute his points, he's not here to respond. I can have a discussion with Sibirsky, if he was interested in one. He is clearly not.

Second, your question concerning life expectancy is debunked by common sense. If the property rights that would allow for the establishment of a social safety net strong enough to sustain a single family suddenly reappeared after being absent for more than 20 years, it would indeed, take some time for the population of Somalia to make the necessary adjustment to account for it. If I'm used to living on a subsidized income, and the subsidy suddenly disappears, it will take me a while to reorient myself to prosper independent of the subsidy. Fucking duh!

Snipping your pic spam. It took six years for the life expectancy to reach where it had been prior to the collapse of the government. We are not saying that life expectancy increase flattened out for six years. It dropped without a state, and only returned after six years. Who knows where it might've been without the collapse of the government.

Of course, you miss the much easier point that the reason the life expectency dropped in Somalia upon the collapse of the state is because the people all started killing each other without a state apparatus to stop them. Civil war has a tendency to decrease life expectancy.

[Distruzio]

Note to self, never sell chairs. Someone else has already thought of a chair.
I am such an idiot!

Wow skippy. Way to miss the point.

That was precisely your point. You countered his denial of intellectual property rights with a "your opinion on this doesn't matter." You supported this position with an assertion that, once he sells his company that makes one thing to someone else, he can no longer make that one thing. Unless the bill of sale addresses this issue, then your assumption is baseless. Especially considering his rejection of IP.

You said, in essence, because someone else has already sold a chair, you cannot sell chairs. Your argument presumes that someone somehow owns the thought, the idea, of the chair. Your argument is silly.

[Sibirsky]

Of course, you miss the much easier point that the reason the life expectency dropped in Somalia upon the collapse of the state is because the people all started killing each other without a state apparatus to stop them. Civil war has a tendency to decrease life expectancy.

Violence subdued by 1994. Without a state.

[Kerinash]

Seriously people, even Ayn Rand admitted that you needed public police services to prevent one's freedoms from being infringed on by assholes. Law enforcement needs to be as objective as possible and that's really hard when one person is giving you money and another isn't.

And Somalia, seriously people? SOMALIA?! It's a shithole fought over by Islamic extremists, warlords, and pirates (except Somaliland, there's a government there). Who in their right mind would use it as a positive example of anarchy?

[The Black Forrest]

Note to self, never sell chairs. Someone else has already thought of a chair.
I am such an idiot!

Intellectual property expires, I believe.

Indeed. However, some get automatically renewed and you can apply to renew it.......

[Robert Magoo]

I find it funny the direction this thread has taken. Private police will work just fine so long as they're bound by law, just as anybody else is. Anarchy doesn't work. It never will work. Even most anarchists acknowledge that some sort of governing force will come into existence. I'd rather entrust that to a known quantity (a minimal, just state) than to a bunch of thugs acting in only their own interest. Self-interest can do many wonderful things, but it must be moderated. Human beings are capable of great evil, and the elimination of state won't automatically change that.

[Seangoli]

I find it funny the direction this thread has taken. Private police will work just fine so long as they're bound by law, just as anybody else is. Anarchy doesn't work. It never will work. Even most anarchists acknowledge that some sort of governing force will come into existence. I'd rather entrust that to a known quantity (a minimal, just state) than to a bunch of thugs acting in only their own interest. Self-interest can do many wonderful things, but it must be moderated. Human beings are capable of great evil, and the elimination of state won't automatically change that.

Who, might I ask, would bind the private police department to law?. Being as how they are the law enforcement and all, I highly doubt they'll do it.

[Distruzio]

I cannot have a discussion with random YouTube guy. If I refute his points, he's not here to respond. I can have a discussion with Sibirsky, if he was interested in one. He is clearly not.

There is a difference between discussing an issue with someone within reach when using 3rd party documentation and attempting to delegitimate the documentation as impermissible. Maybe Sib violated some personal rule that you have regarding your own forum tactics, but that is what discussion, rather than aggression, is for.

Snipping your pic spam. It took six years for the life expectancy to reach where it had been prior to the collapse of the government. We are not saying that life expectancy increase flattened out for six years. It dropped without a state, and only returned after six years. Who knows where it might've been without the collapse of the government.

Of course, you miss the much easier point that the reason the life expectency dropped in Somalia upon the collapse of the state is because the people all started killing each other without a state apparatus to stop them. Civil war has a tendency to decrease life expectancy.

Regardless, the life expectancy rate grows.... without a state. Your argument presumes that statelessness necessitates lawlessness. It obviously does not. My response allowed for the not so incredible inference that it takes time for social order to work itself out when the order is not imposed upon society. Hence the 6 year gap. Again, duh!

[Seangoli]

Intellectual property expires, I believe.

Indeed. However, some get automatically renewed and you can apply to renew it.......

Even still, chairs (except specific unique designs, I imagine) are not covered simply because people have made them before. It's a ridiculous argument to make.

[Robert Magoo]

I find it funny the direction this thread has taken. Private police will work just fine so long as they're bound by law, just as anybody else is. Anarchy doesn't work. It never will work. Even most anarchists acknowledge that some sort of governing force will come into existence. I'd rather entrust that to a known quantity (a minimal, just state) than to a bunch of thugs acting in only their own interest. Self-interest can do many wonderful things, but it must be moderated. Human beings are capable of great evil, and the elimination of state won't automatically change that.

Who, might I ask, would bind the private police department to law?. Being as how they are the law enforcement and all, I highly doubt they'll do it.

Courts and military. The power to arrest doesn't provide any real teeth; the power to kill provides the teeth. Only military has that.

[Kerinash]

Regardless, the life expectancy rate grows.... without a state. Your argument presumes that statelessness necessitates lawlessness. It obviously does not. My response allowed for the not so incredible inference that it takes time for social order to work itself out when the order is not imposed upon society. Hence the 6 year gap. Again, duh!

There is a state in Somalia, Somaliland, it just doesn't cover the entire region and the UN refuses to recognize it.

[Sdaeriji]

Regardless, the life expectancy rate grows.... without a state. Your argument presumes that statelessness necessitates lawlessness. It obviously does not. My response allowed for the not so incredible inference that it takes time for social order to work itself out when the order is not imposed upon society. Hence the 6 year gap. Again, duh!

Life expectancy grew from 47 years prior to the collapse of the government to 49 years upon the re-establishment of the government. In the 6 years prior to the collapse, life expectancy rose from 45 years to 47 years, and in the 6 years after the re-establishment, life expectancy rose from 49 years to 50 years. These rates of growth are both slightly better than the rate of growth during the period of lawlessness. You are supposed to be arguing that the lack of a state is superior to a state, not that the lack of a state is equal to marginally worse than the lack of a state.

[Distruzio]

Regardless, the life expectancy rate grows.... without a state. Your argument presumes that statelessness necessitates lawlessness. It obviously does not. My response allowed for the not so incredible inference that it takes time for social order to work itself out when the order is not imposed upon society. Hence the 6 year gap. Again, duh!

Life expectancy grew from 47 years prior to the collapse of the government to 49 years upon the re-establishment of the government. In the 6 years prior to the collapse, life expectancy rose from 45 years to 47 years, and in the 6 years after the re-establishment, life expectancy rose from 49 years to 50 years. These rates of growth are both slightly better than the rate of growth during the period of lawlessness. You are supposed to be arguing that the lack of a state is superior to a state, not that the lack of a state is equal to marginally worse than the lack of a state.

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

[Sibirsky]

Seriously people, even Ayn Rand admitted that you needed public police services to prevent one's freedoms from being infringed on by assholes. Law enforcement needs to be as objective as possible and that's really hard when one person is giving you money and another isn't.

And Somalia, seriously people? SOMALIA?! It's a shithole fought over by Islamic extremists, warlords, and pirates (except Somaliland, there's a government there). Who in their right mind would use it as a positive example of anarchy?

Except for the facts, you are correct. There was less fighting in stateless Somalia than during the civil war under a government. We're not comparing Somalia to Hong Kong ffs. We're comparing it to it's former self under governmental rule, and to it's neighbors.

[Sdaeriji]

Life expectancy grew from 47 years prior to the collapse of the government to 49 years upon the re-establishment of the government. In the 6 years prior to the collapse, life expectancy rose from 45 years to 47 years, and in the 6 years after the re-establishment, life expectancy rose from 49 years to 50 years. These rates of growth are both slightly better than the rate of growth during the period of lawlessness. You are supposed to be arguing that the lack of a state is superior to a state, not that the lack of a state is equal to marginally worse than the lack of a state.

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

That may be what you want to argue, but I am arguing the specific claim from Sibirsky that Somalia was better off without a state than with one.

[Sibirsky]

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

That may be what you want to argue, but I am arguing the specific claim from Sibirsky that Somalia was better off without a state than with one.

Here. 18 indicators. It did better while stateless in 14 of them.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PtL ... edit?hl=en

[Kerinash]

Life expectancy grew from 47 years prior to the collapse of the government to 49 years upon the re-establishment of the government. In the 6 years prior to the collapse, life expectancy rose from 45 years to 47 years, and in the 6 years after the re-establishment, life expectancy rose from 49 years to 50 years. These rates of growth are both slightly better than the rate of growth during the period of lawlessness. You are supposed to be arguing that the lack of a state is superior to a state, not that the lack of a state is equal to marginally worse than the lack of a state.

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

And the areas of Somalia that are not covered by Somaliland are chaos. Granted there are too many warlords to be considered true anarchy but that just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a society free of coercion.

[Distruzio]

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

And the areas of Somalia that are not covered by Somaliland are chaos. Granted there are too many warlords to be considered true anarchy but that just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a society free of coercion.

Proof of chaos? Moreover, the prevelence of warlords is not proof of a State. It is proof of natural order.

edited to correct my citation.

[Natapoc]

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

And the areas of Somalia that are not covered by Somaliland are chaos. Granted there are too many warlords to be considered true anarchy but that just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a society free of coercion.

Why would having a society with lots of coercion be evidence that a society free of coercion is not possible? Anarchists have always said that Somalia is more the opposite of anarchism.

[The Parkus Empire]

Life expectancy grew from 47 years prior to the collapse of the government to 49 years upon the re-establishment of the government. In the 6 years prior to the collapse, life expectancy rose from 45 years to 47 years, and in the 6 years after the re-establishment, life expectancy rose from 49 years to 50 years. These rates of growth are both slightly better than the rate of growth during the period of lawlessness. You are supposed to be arguing that the lack of a state is superior to a state, not that the lack of a state is equal to marginally worse than the lack of a state.

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

Well, at least where it doesn't conflict with property rights.

[Natapoc]

And the areas of Somalia that are not covered by Somaliland are chaos. Granted there are too many warlords to be considered true anarchy but that just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a society free of coercion.

Proof of chaos? Moreover, the prevelence of warlords is not proof of a State. It is proof of natural order.

Nah. It's evidence of (so called) tribalism of the type that exists all over.

[Kerinash]

And the areas of Somalia that are not covered by Somaliland are chaos. Granted there are too many warlords to be considered true anarchy but that just demonstrates that it is impossible to have a society free of coercion.

Proof of chaos? Moreover, the prevelence of warlords is not proof of a State. It is proof of natural order.

Even worse.

[Distruzio]

Not necessarily. We were arguing that society does not fall into chaos without a State. That is the standard by which we can presume that Anarchy trumps the establishment of a State. B/c Anarchy is voluntary. The State is coercive. Liberty is always preferable to slavery. Our arguments always always always trend on the side of liberty.

Well, at least where it doesn't conflict with property rights.

Property rights are used to define liberty. Without a clear understanding of property rights, there is no clear understanding of liberty. Then we see all kinds of nonsense like, "I have a right to my job," or "I have a right to a house" or "I have a right to income," etc etc.

[Distruzio]

Proof of chaos? Moreover, the prevelence of warlords is not proof of a State. It is proof of natural order.

Nah. It's evidence of (so called) tribalism of the type that exists all over.

Conceded, although I would say that tribalism is a natural order. When you are correct, you are correct, though.