Privatized police department.

[The Southron Nation]

The man speaks the truth. Only Mogadishu is chaotic compared to the rest of the country. Somalia compared the US, not so prosperous. Somalia 2011 compared to Somalia 2001, one helluva an improvement.

The Somali government collapsed in 1991.

Yet they prosper?

*ooops, wrong nation. ah well.

[GeneralHaNor]

I find your laughter ironic

everything Sibirsky has said, is true.

Then there should be no trouble providing a source.

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

[Sibirsky]

The man speaks the truth. Only Mogadishu is chaotic compared to the rest of the country. Somalia compared the US, not so prosperous. Somalia 2011 compared to Somalia 2001, one helluva an improvement.

The Somali government collapsed in 1991.

Indeed. And most aspects of life have improved.

[The Parkus Empire]

hahahahahahahaha

Quoteth the Wiki
"For 1994, the CIA estimated the GDP [of Somali]at $3.3 billion.[3] In 2001, it was estimated to be $4.1 billion.[4] By 2009, the CIA estimated that the GDP had grown to $5.731 billion, with a projected real growth rate of 2.6%."

More money means "better" right?

Life expectancy went up a tigger, too, since what it was when there was a government. Still sucks big time, though.

"Comparing the 2005–2010 period with the half-decade just prior to the outbreak of the conflict (1985–1990), life expectancy actually increased from an average of 47 years for men and women to 48.2 years for men and 51.0 years for women.[146][147]"
Also from Wiki.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I think what we have established is Somalia is LESS BAD than it was with a government. Even I'm going to point out though that the standard for improvement from that is pretty low...

[Sibirsky]

I find your laughter ironic

everything Sibirsky has said, is true.

Then there should be no trouble providing a source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

He provides sources

[Sibirsky]

I think what we have established is Somalia is LESS BAD than it was with a government. Even I'm going to point out though that the standard for improvement from that is pretty low...

Right. It's better than it was under government. It's better than it's neighbors with governments.

[Sdaeriji]

Then there should be no trouble providing a source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

He provides sources

I didn't ask him to provide sources, I asked you.

The Transitional Federal Government was established in 2004. From 1991-2004 (13 years), the GDP of Somalia rose from $3.3 billion to $4.1 billion, a $700 million increase. In the 6 years from 2004-2010, after the government was reestablished, the GDP of Somalia rose from $4.1 billion to $5.25 billion. That's twice the growth in half the time.

[FREEaquaticdancelesson]

(What went through my head thinking of privatized police)
"Excuse me sir?, you seem to have a fairly nice car, indicating that you have a lot of money"
"So?"
"This is a $30,000 annual income or less lane, I'm afraid you're going to have to pay a fine"
"WHAT?, What do you want now?"
"Step outside the car please"
(steps outside car)
"Oh brother!, hey w-what are you doing?"
"It's my car now sukka fool!"

[Sibirsky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

He provides sources

I didn't ask him to provide sources, I asked you.

The Transitional Federal Government was established in 2004. From 1991-2004 (13 years), the GDP of Somalia rose from $3.3 billion to $4.1 billion, a $700 million increase. In the 6 years from 2004-2010, after the government was reestablished, the GDP of Somalia rose from $4.1 billion to $5.25 billion. That's twice the growth in half the time.

Ok, first of all, $4.1 from $3.3 is $800 million. Or 24.2%. $5.25 from $4.1 is $1.15 billion or 28%. Not quite twice the rate of growth.

2nd of all, with a government, it receives foreign aid.

3rd of, by nearly all other metrics it did better without a government. There was a couple, in ehich it did worse.

[Sdaeriji]

I didn't ask him to provide sources, I asked you.

The Transitional Federal Government was established in 2004. From 1991-2004 (13 years), the GDP of Somalia rose from $3.3 billion to $4.1 billion, a $700 million increase. In the 6 years from 2004-2010, after the government was reestablished, the GDP of Somalia rose from $4.1 billion to $5.25 billion. That's twice the growth in half the time.

Ok, first of all, $4.1 from $3.3 is $800 million. Or 24.2%. $5.25 from $4.1 is $1.15 billion or 28%. Not quite twice the rate of growth.

2nd of all, with a government, it receives foreign aid.

3rd of, by nearly all other metrics it did better without a government. There was a couple, in ehich it did worse.

hahahahahaha

24% growth over 13 years. 28% growth over 6 years.

[Sibirsky]

Ok, first of all, $4.1 from $3.3 is $800 million. Or 24.2%. $5.25 from $4.1 is $1.15 billion or 28%. Not quite twice the rate of growth.

2nd of all, with a government, it receives foreign aid.

3rd of, by nearly all other metrics it did better without a government. There was a couple, in ehich it did worse.

hahahahahaha

24% growth over 13 years. 28% growth over 6 years.

Congratulations on your successful rebuttal of the two points that actually matter.

This is debate? hahahahaha?

[Sdaeriji]

hahahahahaha

24% growth over 13 years. 28% growth over 6 years.

Congratulations on your successful rebuttal of the two points that actually matter.

This is debate? hahahahaha?

24% growth over 13 years is 1.86% per year, on average. 28% growth over 6 years is 4.67% per year, on average.

When you engage in debate, let me know. Or is calling people sheep debating?

[Sibirsky]

Congratulations on your successful rebuttal of the two points that actually matter.

This is debate? hahahahaha?

24% growth over 13 years is 1.86% per year, on average. 28% growth over 6 years is 4.67% per year, on average.

When you engage in debate, let me know. Or is calling people sheep debating?

I did admit that growth was faster, did I not?

You ignore the fact that only governments receive foreign aid, from other governments. That is not productive growth.

You ignore all other aspects of Somalian life.

[Sdaeriji]

24% growth over 13 years is 1.86% per year, on average. 28% growth over 6 years is 4.67% per year, on average.

When you engage in debate, let me know. Or is calling people sheep debating?

I did admit that growth was faster, did I not?

You ignore the fact that only governments receive foreign aid, from other governments. That is not productive growth.

You ignore all other aspects of Somalian life.

You said I was wrong about the rate of growth being double. I was not.

You haven't presented anything for me to refute. You say these things, but you offer nothing to support your statements.

Here's my refutation: nuh uh.

It's literally exactly as supported as your arguments. When you put effort into presenting your arguments, I'll put effort into debating them.

I did not ignore the fact that only governments receive foreign aid, because it is not true. And I did not ignore the fact that it is not productive growth, because it's more productive than the non-growth that occured prior. In fact, leading up to the establishment of the provisional government, the GDP shrunk from $4.3 billion in 2000 to $4.1 billion in 2004. That's real loss, not just slowed growth.

[Sibirsky]

I did admit that growth was faster, did I not?

You ignore the fact that only governments receive foreign aid, from other governments. That is not productive growth.

You ignore all other aspects of Somalian life.

You said I was wrong about the rate of growth being double. I was not.

You said there was twice the growth in half the time. Not twice the rate of growth. You ere wrong about that.

You haven't presented anything for me to refute. You say these things, but you offer nothing to support your statements.

Yes, I have. I provided a video with many statistics from various sources all presented.

Here's my refutation: nuh uh.

It's literally exactly as supported as your arguments. When you put effort into presenting your arguments, I'll put effort into debating them.

Yeah, that's not quite true. My arguments are supported by facts.

I did not ignore the fact that only governments receive foreign aid, because it is not true. And I did not ignore the fact that it is not productive growth, because it's more productive than the non-growth that occured prior. In fact, leading up to the establishment of the provisional government, the GDP shrunk from $4.3 billion in 2000 to $4.1 billion in 2004. That's real loss, not just slowed growth.

Governments receive more aid.

Both General HaNor and I presented sources.

[Sdaeriji]

This...

You said there was twice the growth in half the time. Not twice the rate of growth. You ere wrong about that.

is incredibly funny when juxtaposed with this...

Governments receive more aid.

Were I less mature, I'd say that you didn't argue that governments receive more aid, you argued that only governments receive foreign aid.

You provided a video of a guy yelling about stuff and quoting sources that I have no way to independently verify. It's as good as anecdotal evidence. And in this post, rather than actually present any of these so-called "metrics" that anarchy-Somalia beat state-Somalia in, you just spend the entire time claiming that you already have. Which you have not. Hell, even the life expectancy metric that someone who was totally not you provided isn't even accurate, as it compares the two periods of time when Somalia had government (1985-1990 and 2005-2010) to each other and fails to bring up that the life expectancy dropped a full three years after the collapse of the government.

[Sibirsky]

You provided a video of a guy yelling about stuff and quoting sources that I have no way to independently verify. It's as good as anecdotal evidence. And in this post, rather than actually present any of these so-called "metrics" that anarchy-Somalia beat state-Somalia in, you just spend the entire time claiming that you already have. Which you have not. Hell, even the life expectancy metric that someone who was totally not you provided isn't even accurate, as it compares the two periods of time when Somalia had government (1985-1990 and 2005-2010) to each other and fails to bring up that the life expectancy dropped a full three years after the collapse of the government.

You can try Googling them.

And life expectancy suddenly jumped up in 2005 after a government was formed.

[Sdaeriji]

You provided a video of a guy yelling about stuff and quoting sources that I have no way to independently verify. It's as good as anecdotal evidence. And in this post, rather than actually present any of these so-called "metrics" that anarchy-Somalia beat state-Somalia in, you just spend the entire time claiming that you already have. Which you have not. Hell, even the life expectancy metric that someone who was totally not you provided isn't even accurate, as it compares the two periods of time when Somalia had government (1985-1990 and 2005-2010) to each other and fails to bring up that the life expectancy dropped a full three years after the collapse of the government.

You can try Googling them.

And life expectancy suddenly jumped up in 2005 after a government was formed.

Or you could present your own argument instead of cribbing someone else's. It's one thing to link sources backing up what you are already saying; it's another thing entirely to post a video of someone making your claims for you.

Life expectancy started rising after a few years of anarchy in Somalia, but fell after the government initially collapsed. If you are going to credit the lack of a state with the rise in life expectancy during the period, then you have to acknowledge that the reason it was able to rise as much as it did is because it intially collapsed when the state collapsed. It took the lack of a state 6 years (1997) to recover to a point where life expectancy had risen compared to pre-collapse.

[Sibirsky]

You can try Googling them.

And life expectancy suddenly jumped up in 2005 after a government was formed.

Or you could present your own argument instead of cribbing someone else's. It's one thing to link sources backing up what you are already saying; it's another thing entirely to post a video of someone making your claims for you.

Life expectancy started rising after a few years of anarchy in Somalia, but fell after the government initially collapsed. If you are going to credit the lack of a state with the rise in life expectancy during the period, then you have to acknowledge that the reason it was able to rise as much as it did is because it intially collapsed when the state collapsed. It took the lack of a state 6 years (1997) to recover to a point where life expectancy had risen compared to pre-collapse.

Ok, be that as it may, it doesn't change any of the other factors in which it has done remarkably well.

You're also asking for data from a place with no government for a long period of time. There is no BLS, ERS, GAO, CBO or anything similar to keep track of these. The video, has several sources listed.

[Sdaeriji]

Or you could present your own argument instead of cribbing someone else's. It's one thing to link sources backing up what you are already saying; it's another thing entirely to post a video of someone making your claims for you.

Life expectancy started rising after a few years of anarchy in Somalia, but fell after the government initially collapsed. If you are going to credit the lack of a state with the rise in life expectancy during the period, then you have to acknowledge that the reason it was able to rise as much as it did is because it intially collapsed when the state collapsed. It took the lack of a state 6 years (1997) to recover to a point where life expectancy had risen compared to pre-collapse.

Ok, be that as it may, it doesn't change any of the other factors in which it has done remarkably well.

You're also asking for data from a place with no government for a long period of time. There is no BLS, ERS, GAO, CBO or anything similar to keep track of these. The video, has several sources listed.

Interestingly, we have information regarding GDP and life expectancy. Both refute your claim. You continue to avoid even NAMING a metric that anarchy-Somalia beats state-Somalia.

[The Black Forrest]

Ahh no you won't. Part of the buy out is either you will be in the new company for a year or so or you are out of the market for 1-3 years.

Let's not forget you sign away your rights to the IP as well.......

I don't think intellectual property is a legitimate property right.

It doesn't matter what you think.

You sell your company all goes with it. No company on the planet is going to buy your company and allow you take their money and set up another one doing the same thing.

[Distruzio]

Or you could present your own argument instead of cribbing someone else's. It's one thing to link sources backing up what you are already saying; it's another thing entirely to post a video of someone making your claims for you.

Life expectancy started rising after a few years of anarchy in Somalia, but fell after the government initially collapsed. If you are going to credit the lack of a state with the rise in life expectancy during the period, then you have to acknowledge that the reason it was able to rise as much as it did is because it intially collapsed when the state collapsed. It took the lack of a state 6 years (1997) to recover to a point where life expectancy had risen compared to pre-collapse.

First and foremost, grow up. It is perfectly legitimate to allow someone better versed and more articulate in a particular nuance of your opinion on a particular subject that you share with them to speak for you. Your criticism is the same sort of nonsense one might expect to hear from someone claiming that burning a cd is theft somehow. It ain't. Copying ain't stealing. Using someone else's sources and crediting them with it ain't illegitimate.

You just got pissy b/c Sib made clear his position on the subject and provided a convenient video that presented a man better versed and more thorough than you were prepared for.

Second, your question concerning life expectancy is debunked by common sense. If the property rights that would allow for the establishment of a social safety net strong enough to sustain a single family suddenly reappeared after being absent for more than 20 years, it would indeed, take some time for the population of Somalia to make the necessary adjustment to account for it. If I'm used to living on a subsidized income, and the subsidy suddenly disappears, it will take me a while to reorient myself to prosper independent of the subsidy. Fucking duh!



The video explains what sustained the life expectancy for Somali's before and after statelessness.

[Distruzio]

I don't think intellectual property is a legitimate property right.

It doesn't matter what you think.

You sell your company all goes with it. No company on the planet is going to buy your company and allow you take their money and set up another one doing the same thing.

Note to self, never sell chairs. Someone else has already thought of a chair.
I am such an idiot!

[The Black Forrest]

It doesn't matter what you think.

You sell your company all goes with it. No company on the planet is going to buy your company and allow you take their money and set up another one doing the same thing.

Note to self, never sell chairs. Someone else has already thought of a chair.
I am such an idiot!

Wow skippy. Way to miss the point.