NATION

PASSWORD

Privatized police department.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Lomenore
Diplomat
 
Posts: 861
Founded: Mar 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lomenore » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:40 am

Sibirsky wrote:A competing firm for the poor.


And what stops the existing firm from wiping out the competing firm? Small start up businesses do not pop into existence fully formed. If IBM had their own private security forces, they could have wiped Apple or Microsoft off the map the moment they became big enough to be noticed.

Competing firms. Generally, shooting potential customers is not good business practice.


Not true. You only have to shoot a few for the rest to fall into line. Better to live on your knees then die on your feet.

The market stops it. A new, better, cheaper, more innovative competitor springs up.


Do you seriously think there are no barriers to market entry? If you don't like gas prices, sure you can start up your own gas company. All you need is an oil field, an oil rig to extract that oil, a refinery to make the oil into gasoline, and a series of gas stations to sell that oil at a lower price, and enough money to build these things and pay people to staff them. Infrastructure like that doesn't come out of nowhere. It isn't cheap. And it doesn't spring up overnight. So the number of people who can create competing oil businesses are very limited, and they're far more likely to be rich already.

The same thing holds true for a security firm. You need workers, weapons, and people who know how to use those weapons. Trained soldiers are far more likely to already be working for one of the existing firms. The monopolies the start up hopes to overturn will have more experience, a larger client base, and better weaponry. What stops them from simply wiping out your startup security firm? What stops them from using their cash to hire away the best soldiers?

Where were unlimited vacations 10 years ago? Now they are a tiny, but growing trend. Where were multiple on premises restaurants? Now they exist.


Those exist in an economy with government regulations where the state has a monopoly on the means of force. You're proposing a theoretical society where the government has no means of enforcing law, it's all up to private security firms owned by corporations. What stops corporations from doing what they exist to do, and drive competitors out of business? In America, anti-trust legislation and government power prevents monopolies from emerging. If they no longer have this kind of authority, what stops it then?

Bad publicity. Competing firms.


Bad publicity can report on these things, but they can't stop it. Look at North Korea. There's no limit to the amount of bad publicity they've gotten. Does that mean the people of North Korea are no longer starving? Look at Darfur. The Sudanese government got a ton of bad publicity for waging a campaign of genocide. Has that stopped them? How about the Berlin Wall? There was no limit to bad publicity. Does that mean the wall was brought down immediately after the Communists built it? Simply spreading knowledge of something isn't enough. People also need to get off their asses and do something about it. But you seem to think that people will stop behaving badly as long as someone's watching them, like a kid trying to steal from the cookie jar.

What if they don't care about public opinion?

Or forcing all the local businesses to pay in company scrip that's worthless anywhere else? For that matter, you act like money will be accepted anywhere in the country. But money is guaranteed by the government. Without a government enforcing what is currency and what isn't, what's to stop people from issuing their own currency? That's what company stores did, they paid their workers in company cash that was only accepted in company stores. If the workers tried to leave for a better job, they would invalidate their entire life savings because they would be in an area where company cash wasn't accepted.


If money is guaranteed by the government, why does it's value continue to decline? That's a shit guarantee. I want my money back. I don't have an issue with competing currencies.


You don't have an issue with your job paying you currency that's only acceptable at their stores? You whine about currency declining, but you completely ignore how it actually has value.

Again, bad publicity, the media, watchdog groups would prevent the sort of thing you talk about.


How? Name one case where bad publicity stopped an unfair business practice without government intervention?

Again, you keep invoking your little collection of libertarian magic words: "Profit motive! Start up firms! Wingardium Leviosa! Free Markets! Abracadabra! Competition! Finite Incantatem!" You don't explain how these little startup firms will survive when there's nothing stopping existing monopolies from outright murdering their competitors.

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:44 am

Lomenore wrote:And what stops the existing firm from wiping out the competing firm? Small start up businesses do not pop into existence fully formed. If IBM had their own private security forces, they could have wiped Apple or Microsoft off the map the moment they became big enough to be noticed.


Somewhat related: Microsoft gained a virtual monopoly without government mandate, at least until the court intervened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
Lomenore
Diplomat
 
Posts: 861
Founded: Mar 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lomenore » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:47 am

Sibirsky wrote:Bullshit. Pure bullshit. Government subsidized railroads, utilities, telephone companies. In the late 19th, early 20th century there were five competing electric companies in Baltimore. And more wanted to enter the market. Then governments discovered they could monopolize the market, have the monopoly gouge the customers, and share the proceeds through taxes and licensing fees. Copyrights, licensing, patents, artificial barriers to entry, all monopolize (or help monopolize) the market.


Your examples all pre-date the Sherman anti trust act. You completely ignore any recent evidence, even if you have to go back over a hundred years to find examples that support your viewpoint.

There was no money for it. You fucking act like we had this standard of living and level of production for 2000 years. Kids had to fucking work.


And the fact that it was legal to hire a security firm to shoot people who complained about working for chicken feed had nothing to do with it?

Property owners, insurers, businesses, would have an incentive to keep crime down in poorer areas.

Or, they could just not operate businesses in poor areas. Under your system, what stops rich people from setting up little gated communities and killing anyone they don't want inside?

Yeah, monopolies don't spring up. They are state created, despite what your government overlords tell you.


All the evidence you have for that point is from the 19th or early twentieth century. Why don't you look at laws made after 1910?

User avatar
Lomenore
Diplomat
 
Posts: 861
Founded: Mar 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lomenore » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:48 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Lomenore wrote:And what stops the existing firm from wiping out the competing firm? Small start up businesses do not pop into existence fully formed. If IBM had their own private security forces, they could have wiped Apple or Microsoft off the map the moment they became big enough to be noticed.


Somewhat related: Microsoft had a coercive monopoly without government mandate. That ended with the court saying, "Stop it".


But, but but... Sibirsky told me that governments create monopoly? And here you're saying they put a stop to one!? :shock:

Why that's almost... completely in line with everything I've been saying since I started posting in this thread!

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:51 am

Lomenore wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
Somewhat related: Microsoft had a coercive monopoly without government mandate. That ended with the court saying, "Stop it".


But, but but... Sibirsky told me that governments create monopoly? And here you're saying they put a stop to one!? :shock:

Why that's almost... completely in line with everything I've been saying since I started posting in this thread!

As I have pointed out Christ knows how many times, just about any market that's existence is/was illegal (and thus is free from government regulation on regular transactions), has been monopolized by a criminal element, despite much competition.

This has barely been addressed at all.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
Lomenore
Diplomat
 
Posts: 861
Founded: Mar 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lomenore » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:55 am

Yes, any market that wasn't under government regulation was under criminal regulation. It's simply inclined to favor those who are willing to cheat. But the libertarian shmucks in this thread are dead set on ignoring any evidence that doesn't reinforce their delusions.

Mafia groups are in it to make money just like anyone else. They have no qualms against using violence to crush competitors. Anyone who can hold their own against a criminal group like that is someone who can wield violence in turn.

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:41 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:


How do you explain DeBeers?


DeBeers doesn't have a monopoly.
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:42 am

The Black Forrest wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:
In that case, does it even matter that they have a monopoly? If they have superior products for superior prices as compared to the upstart, than why does it matter if they have a monopoly on the industry?



I would sell them the company, then reform it, and continue to do so.


Ahh no you won't. Part of the buy out is either you will be in the new company for a year or so or you are out of the market for 1-3 years.

Let's not forget you sign away your rights to the IP as well.......


I don't think intellectual property is a legitimate property right.
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:46 am

Lomenore wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:I wish I could write more to justify you spending all the time it took for you to write that up. But you basically invented a tautological theory based on an initial premise I do not agree with. That premise being the idea that a private company would accept the risk necessary to pull off such an operation, and then monopolize every aspect of that city of 5 million people. Unless you are a communist, I think you can agree with me that such a feat would be virtually impossible. No single entity has the expertise or specialization to control that many aspects of a society, as evidenced by the failures of socialism.


I'm not talking about communism. I'm talking about a company store, and a company monopoly. I'm not controlling every aspect of this city, I'm simply buying out all the businesses and squeezing the customers by destroying their freedom of choice. That isn't Communism. That's not even socialism. Industry is not owned by the people and held in common. Hell, here, I don't even control all the means of production, like Socialism teaches. I'm just a company with several monopolies and using them to make billions.

You claim a military invasion would be unprofitable. But I showed how a corporation could make a profit rather nicely. You talk so casually about an insurgency. Do you know how many people a guerilla war would kill? In Vietnam, millions of Vietnamese died, and the number of American dead numbered in the tens of thousands. In Iraq, less then four thousand are dead, with the number of dead Iraqis still being counted. Given a choice, which do you think people will chose? Work for the company and get their pay, or get killed in some display of self determination?


You need to refute this before I entertain any more of your hypotheticals
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
Distruzio
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23841
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:06 am

Lomenore wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
1. Who determines what amount of money is necessary to provide the products in your abstraction? The consumer? Or the gov't? Or the company? If it is the company, then the company that produces to few products and services will find itself outcompeted quite quickly unless it can secure gov't coercive powers (think DeBeers). If the gov't determines the amount of money is necessary, then we find price controls contributing to a distinct lack of products and services available for consumption - shortages. If the consumer determines the amount of money is necessary, then your argument is completely undermined.


The production process determines how much money is necessary. The producer buys materials, uses those materials, and sells the finished product. If they charge the customer exactly what it cost to make the finished product, then there's no profit. If you can build a nuclear aircraft carrier for a lower price then Newport News, let me know. And then, let the Department of Defense know. You'll clean up rather nicely.


:palm:
Do you know how magnets work? Don't answer, it's a joke intended to poke fun at your obvious misunderstanding of the production process. Production doesn't just happen, boss. Money and prices aren't simply arbitrary figures tacked on to a particular product. My specific question to you was who determines the amount of money necessary for production. Your answer was some convoluted attempt to say that production determines necessary production, or "it's a miracle!" Please... try again. Otherwise, we cannot have a conversation b/c I'll be talking to yet another person who insists that economics isn't a real science b/c he doesn't know it.

Lomenore wrote:Before there was the department of Education, there was the Bureau of Education. That dated all the way back to 1867. And religious institutions teach religious dogma. Catholic universities of theology taught that there was no way to salvation outside the church, and that paying money to the Catholic clergy absolved one of sin.

The Catholic Church did not educate the masses. They educated people who went to their schools, who paid for the privilege. During the Renaissance, there emerged schools that weren't run by the church, and there was a corresponding upswing in the body of knowledge. Do you want a return to the old ways? Do you want teachers saying the world has to be flat because it's the only way everyone could see Jesus return?

And how can something be both Free and For Profit?


Universities are not what I mentioned. I specifically mentioned public schools, boss. Ill ignore the obvious inaccuracies in your response since it has nothing to do with what I actually said.

Lomenore wrote:I pay Comcast to install and operate my high speed internet access. Max Barry pays to have his website hosted, and the advertisers carry some of that burden. I don't know if it's enough to totally cover costs, but that's why Max Barry writes and sells books. He has a job, it's not like all his income is from advertising on NS.net.


Call up comcast. I guarantee you are paying them for the maintenance and installation of cable lines. The actual internet, is free for everyone now. Barry operates NS out of the goodness of his heart? Or rather, b/c it suits his entrepreneurial interests? But again, way to completely ignore the actual post.

Lomenore wrote:How much does your school charge for tuition? And how many people go there? Does it operate dorms? Does it operate a cafeteria or a book store? You can afford to operate quite cheaply if you do most of your work online. But more to the point, how many important academics has your school produced?
You can get a rather nice job with an Oxford, Cambridge, or Harvard degree. I've read quite a number of books published by graduates of those colleges. I've never even heard of Alumni of the Mises Institute. What kind of professors has your school produced? What kind of publishers? Or is making a profit all your school cares about?


Again, hows about you actually respond to a post instead of running off on the wind about something? I think I'd get better conversation out of one of the members of ICP. At least then I could actually enjoy making fun of them.
Eastern Orthodox Christian

Anti-Progressive
Conservative

Anti-Feminist
Right leaning Distributist

Anti-Equity
Western Chauvanist

Anti-Globalism
Nationalist

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:11 am

ZombieRothbard wrote:You need to refute this before I entertain any more of your hypotheticals


It all has been refuted by yours truly. It was a terrible argument with pretty much no historical precedent whatsoever, but I took the time to refute it nonetheless. Demanding every poster refute it in his or her own way is ridiculous, particularly when you've shown that you aren't fond of even addressing arguments directed at yourself in particular.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
Distruzio
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23841
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:22 am

ZombieRothbard wrote:1. Armed citizenry can fight back
2. Other police forces can fight back
3. Customers will not pay criminals, police force loses money and cannot afford to pay employees
4. Members of the rogue police force are branded as criminals, unable to find other employment
5. No social contract to hide behind, rogue police force clearly recognized as bandits
6. Police forces suppliers break contract, cut off supply
7. Population hires foreign mercenaries to fight back
8. Members of police force are coercing their innocent neighbors, guilt sets in

Just some reasons why this wouldn't work. Basically, a private police force would not have the resources to violently take over society. They would have to fight society at every step, and their income would be based on customers. If they go rogue, they lose their customer base. Robbing their customers is always an option, but the personnel required to extort entire neighbors would have to be massive. It isn't like in the movies, where the mob boss goes door to door unopposed, taking money from shopkeepers. In a society with renegade police, the shopkeepers would simply blow their blocks off. No gun control. A huge percentage of the population would need to be a member of this police force, a percentage unrealistically high. The members of the police force would have to be willing to coerce innocent people, simply for money. The money, being money that this organization likely doesn't have, considering they have no legitimate customers. Even the goods they plunder would not easily be sold, seeing as how any rational business would not buy stolen goods to support a war machine that would threaten their own storefront in the future. Suppliers who supply the weapons and ammo to the renegade police force would have to cease supplying them, unless they want to risk them being coerced in the future. The complex division of labor involved would have to be in collusion with this police force, down to the gun powder and ore mining production companies. Essentially, a takeover this size would require a massive private army with a monopoly on the entire division of labor necessary for the construction of weapons. Not to mention the training required to train such a massive army, which of course would be QUITE OBVIOUS. Virtually everybody in society would notice such a massive army being trained, and such a massive amount of money being funneled into it. Finally, the giant military organization would have to wage war against society. If they fail, their business venture is destroyed, their reputations are destroyed, and they will likely be brought up on criminal charges.

If anybody honestly thinks a business would be willing to risk something like this, you are insane, and lack even a basic understanding of the business world. The reward does not even come close to outweighing the risks. The reward, being almost non-existent. The continual plunder of the resources from a society only functions, when the society voluntarily agrees to it. This rogue police force has no feigned legitimacy through social contract etc. As anybody can clearly see, systematic plunder in a society does not work (Look at the Middle East unrest). And these are places where their state's are at least reasonably respected, and appear all official. Imagine how a private police force would compare. It would have absolutely NO level of legitimacy. Hell, the Egyptians fought off their state with rocks. This society would have guns.

Basically, anybody that honestly argues for a societal takeover via private police knows nothing of the business world, and nothing of libertarian theory. If you want to argue that a power vacuum would draw people to VOLUNTARILY accepting a private police force as their state, that is at least a somewhat tenable position. But it is the height of absurdity, to claim that a private police force could conjure the resources necessary to take over an entire society through purely coercive means.


The Parkus Empire wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:I see that still nobody intends to address the points made here

That's because it's so ludicrous that it doesn't merit comment. You think people are sure to behave in your hypothetical ideal way, when you really have no evidence to back that up.

1. Of course they can. That doesn't mean they will or that doesn't mean they'll win. You take both for granted. The U.S. used to be quite lax on gun control, and I can grantee you that even back then organized crime and protection rackets flourished--especially back then.
2. They could, but that makes zero sense. As has already been pointed out, individual protection rackets tend to make agreements for monopolies of areas.
3. Yes, they will pay criminals. People have paid occupying forces tributes since forever. This statement is rubbish, and I have no idea where you get your evidence.
4. Like Al Capone was?
5. It doesn't matter what people think of them as long as they're successful.
6. No, they wouldn't. Why break a profitable contract?
7. Magnificent Seven style? Show me where that has worked out well historically.
8. HAHAHAHAHAHA.


The Parkus Empire wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:You need to refute this before I entertain any more of your hypotheticals


It all has been refuted by yours truly. It was a terrible argument with pretty much no historical precedent whatsoever, but I took the time to refute it nonetheless. Demanding every poster refute it in his or her own way is ridiculous, particularly when you've shown that you aren't fond of even addressing arguments directed at yourself in particular.


He likely missed your rebuttal is all. Simmer down. I couldn't help but notice that you criticize ZR for a lack of precedent when you yourself fail to provide any as well. At least ZR gave supporting arguments. You simply listed refutations. Just a minor critique. I'll wait for ZR to come back before I go any further.
Last edited by Distruzio on Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
Eastern Orthodox Christian

Anti-Progressive
Conservative

Anti-Feminist
Right leaning Distributist

Anti-Equity
Western Chauvanist

Anti-Globalism
Nationalist

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:34 am

Distruzio wrote:He likely missed your rebuttal is all. Simmer down. I couldn't help but notice that you criticize ZR for a lack of precedent when you yourself fail to provide any as well.


Not really. Occupying forces. Al Capone. Protection Rackets, historical and modern.

At least ZR gave supporting arguments. You simply listed refutations. Just a minor critique. I'll wait for ZR to come back before I go any further.


I refuted the rest of his post on page 14.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:37 am

And he has seen my rebuttal--all of it, iirc. Which is why I'm calling BS on him demanding others refute his arguments.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
Distruzio
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23841
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:39 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:Against with this hypothetical ideal of human behavior.

Just some reasons why this wouldn't work. Basically, a private police force would not have the resources to violently take over society.


Hypothetical horseshit. Organized crime and occupying forces have both successfully taken over societies more times than can be counted by a human being.

They would have to fight society at every step,


Nonsense. Where do you get this?

and their income would be based on customers. If they go rogue, they lose their customer base.

I don't see how. That's not how it works with organized crime.

Robbing their customers is always an option, but the personnel required to extort entire neighbors would have to be massive. It isn't like in the movies, where the mob boss goes door to door unopposed, taking money from shopkeepers. In a society with renegade police, the shopkeepers would simply blow their blocks off. No gun control.


During the golden age of U.S. organized crime, shop keepers could legally own a fucking machine gun, yet protection rackets flourished. Protection rackets have worked through all of the ages where you could buy a gun in two minutes.

A huge percentage of the population would need to be a member of this police force, a percentage unrealistically high.


No it wouldn't, dude. Occupying forces have hardly historically been a large force in proportion to the population.

The members of the police force would have to be willing to coerce innocent people, simply for money.


You don't say? Certainly that's out of the realm of human nature.
The money, being money that this organization likely doesn't have, considering they have no legitimate customers.


Like any protection racket today, they could have loads of willing customers. Just because they use extortion doesn't mean they suck at beating up the shithead who robbed your shop.

Even the goods they plunder would not easily be sold,


Horsepucky.

seeing as how any rational business would not buy stolen goods to support a war machine that would threaten their own storefront in the future.


The Nazis didn't seem to have a problem unloading their plunder.

Suppliers who supply the weapons and ammo to the renegade police force would have to cease supplying them,


Black market dealers who supply the mob and protection rackets don't cease supplying.

unless they want to risk them being coerced in the future.


Highly unlikely, since protection rackets, as has been pointed out so many times, monopolize areas.

The complex division of labor involved would have to be in collusion with this police force, down to the gun powder and ore mining production companies. Essentially, a takeover this size


We're just talking about a small neighborhood. Again, as has been pointed out, protection rackets divide up territory like cities and monopolize certain districts (or businesses).

would require a massive private army


Nope.

with a monopoly on the entire division of labor necessary for the construction of weapons.


Nope. They just buy them from dealers. It laughable to assume no one would knowingly supply weapons to violent criminals, since people actually do that today.

Not to mention the training required to train such a massive army, which of course would be QUITE OBVIOUS.


It's not exactly Green Beret shit.

Virtually everybody in society would notice such a massive army being trained, and such a massive amount of money being funneled into it. Finally, the giant military organization would have to wage war against society.


That is not, nor is it ever, how small protection rackets have worked. That is, however, how occupying forces have worked through the ages, and they have worked well.

If they fail, their business venture is destroyed, their reputations are destroyed, and they will likely be brought up on criminal charges.


You're turning a small neighborhood protection racket into Star Wars.
If anybody honestly thinks a business would be willing to risk something like this, you are insane, and lack even a basic understanding of the business world.


And you lack a basic understanding of the criminal world.

The reward does not even come close to outweighing the risks. The reward, being almost non-existent.


People have gotten rich from this for thousands of years. WTF are you talking about?

The continual plunder of the resources from a society only functions, when the society voluntarily agrees to it.


:rofl:

This rogue police force has no feigned legitimacy through social contract etc. As anybody can clearly see, systematic plunder in a society does not work (Look at the Middle East unrest). And these are places where their state's are at least reasonably respected, and appear all official. Imagine how a private police force would compare. It would have absolutely NO level of legitimacy. Hell, the Egyptians fought off their state with rocks. This society would have guns.


We're not talking about a Territory as large as Egypt.

Basically, anybody that honestly argues for a societal takeover via private police knows nothing of the business world,


But I do know quite a bit about the criminal world.

and nothing of libertarian theory.


>and nothing of libertarian theory.
>libertarian theory.
>theory.

If you want to argue that a power vacuum would draw people to VOLUNTARILY accepting a private police force as their state, that is at least a somewhat tenable position. But it is the height of absurdity, to claim that a private police force could conjure the resources necessary to take over an entire society through purely coercive means.


A city block is hardly that ambitious.


I see it now.
Eastern Orthodox Christian

Anti-Progressive
Conservative

Anti-Feminist
Right leaning Distributist

Anti-Equity
Western Chauvanist

Anti-Globalism
Nationalist

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:13 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Lomenore wrote:
But, but but... Sibirsky told me that governments create monopoly? And here you're saying they put a stop to one!? :shock:

Why that's almost... completely in line with everything I've been saying since I started posting in this thread!

As I have pointed out Christ knows how many times, just about any market that's existence is/was illegal (and thus is free from government regulation on regular transactions), has been monopolized by a criminal element, despite much competition.

This has barely been addressed at all.


Because what you say makes no sense. Criminals are still in competition with each other, and given a court system to settle disputes, the coercive elements of competition would be removed.
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:16 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:You need to refute this before I entertain any more of your hypotheticals


It all has been refuted by yours truly. It was a terrible argument with pretty much no historical precedent whatsoever, but I took the time to refute it nonetheless. Demanding every poster refute it in his or her own way is ridiculous, particularly when you've shown that you aren't fond of even addressing arguments directed at yourself in particular.


You didn't refute my argument, you just said that it is possible that a group of neighborhood thugs could hypothetically take over a single city block, in which case I am inclined to agree with you. Although I would point out that if you accept the insurance model, it would only be able to happen in a truly poverty stricken neighborhood that cannot afford insurance coverage. Insurance companies wouldn't go criminal on such a small scale. They would have to either go big or go home, because just simply robbing one poverty stricken neighborhood would do nothing other than destroy their reputation.
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:18 am

ZombieRothbard wrote:Because what you say makes no sense. Criminals are still in competition with each other, and given a court system to settle disputes, the coercive elements of competition would be removed.


At the very best, mob elements would eliminate competition through contracts. Whether or not they would use coercion is a matter of contention, but they probably wouldn't need it.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:20 am

I also made a post towards Natapoc that was partially a refuation here

EDIT: Sorry wrong link, I changed it.
Last edited by ZombieRothbard on Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:24 am

ZombieRothbard wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
It all has been refuted by yours truly. It was a terrible argument with pretty much no historical precedent whatsoever, but I took the time to refute it nonetheless. Demanding every poster refute it in his or her own way is ridiculous, particularly when you've shown that you aren't fond of even addressing arguments directed at yourself in particular.


You didn't refute my argument, you just said that it is possible that a group of neighborhood thugs could hypothetically take over a single city block, in which case I am inclined to agree with you. Although I would point out that if you accept the insurance model, it would only be able to happen in a truly poverty stricken neighborhood that cannot afford insurance coverage. Insurance companies wouldn't go criminal on such a small scale. They would have to either go big or go home, because just simply robbing one poverty stricken neighborhood would do nothing other than destroy their reputation.

I point out to that professional criminals can probably provide the best protection in poor neighborhoods.
A: Criminal elements understand crime better than non-criminal insurance companies, for obv reasons.
B: Criminal elements would use far greater force when avenging their clients. As in, not some dandy hotel.
C: Criminal elements have far greater influence on each other's actions. They can contact one another with ease, and say, "This guy's okay to mess with, this one isn't."
D: Criminal elements know all the major operators. If your stolen shit ends up on the market, they can probably have the guy within a week, since ratting on someone to a mob boss isn't at all frowned upon in the underworld, unlike ratting to da popo.
E: Finally, if you get raped, you can go to them for help without worrying about your premiums going up.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
ZombieRothbard
Minister
 
Posts: 2320
Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby ZombieRothbard » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:32 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
ZombieRothbard wrote:
You didn't refute my argument, you just said that it is possible that a group of neighborhood thugs could hypothetically take over a single city block, in which case I am inclined to agree with you. Although I would point out that if you accept the insurance model, it would only be able to happen in a truly poverty stricken neighborhood that cannot afford insurance coverage. Insurance companies wouldn't go criminal on such a small scale. They would have to either go big or go home, because just simply robbing one poverty stricken neighborhood would do nothing other than destroy their reputation.

I point out to that professional criminals can probably provide the best protection in poor neighborhoods.
A: Criminal elements understand crime better than non-criminal insurance companies, for obv reasons.
B: Criminal elements would use far greater force when avenging their clients. As in, not some dandy hotel.
C: Criminal elements have far greater influence on each other's actions. They can contact one another with ease, and say, "This guy's okay to mess with, this one isn't."
D: Criminal elements know all the major operators. If your stolen shit ends up on the market, they can probably have the guy within a week, since ratting on someone to a mob boss isn't at all frowned upon in the underworld, unlike ratting to da popo.
E: Finally, if you get raped, you can go to them for help without worrying about your premiums going up.


I would say that "criminals" that provided such services as the ones you listed here, would actually benefit a community. If a poverty stricken neighborhood develops a protection racket, it would be a routimentary system of law and order. It would be no different than what our current government does, except at least the "criminals" in the poverty stricken neighborhood would be less removed than the government cops would be, since they grew up in the neighborhood etc.
Ben is a far-right social libertarian. He is also a non-interventionist and culturally liberal. Ben's scores (from 0 to 10):
Economic issues: +8.74 right
Social issues: +9.56 libertarian
Foreign policy: +10 non-interventionist
Cultural identification: +7.74 liberal
"NSG, where anything more progressive than North Korea is a freedom loving, liberal Utopia"
- GeneralHaNor

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:44 am

ZombieRothbard wrote:I would say that "criminals" that provided such services as the ones you listed here, would actually benefit a community. If a poverty stricken neighborhood develops a protection racket, it would be a routimentary system of law and order. It would be no different than what our current government does, except at least the "criminals" in the poverty stricken neighborhood would be less removed than the government cops would be, since they grew up in the neighborhood etc.


Except, once again, these people create monopolies on many businesses.

You also have to realize that a lot of gangs in the area would make their money from theft, and criminal protection, as has been outlined, mainly enforces law through certain "legitimate" targets: there is going to be just as much crime (probably more, actually), it will simply be confined to targets who don't buy in. Protection rackets placate gangs by saying: "Why rob one of our guys when you can rob this fucker over here?"
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:51 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:Yeah, monopolies don't spring up. They are state created, despite what your government overlords tell you.


Not criminal monopolies, obv. Illegalization of something hardly eliminates market competition--if it even cuts down on it; I think you pointed out cases where drugs were legalized, it lead to a shrinking of the drug market. I know the Repeal of Prohibition saw a massive decrease in the hard liquor market.

Regardless, criminal monopolies are not created by the state.

The state helps. By making something illegal, you take all people not willing to break the law out of it. Then you take out all the people who do not consider the risk worth it, out of it. These 2 groups would have participated if the product was legal.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:58 am

Sibirsky wrote:The state helps. By making something illegal, you take all people not willing to break the law out of it.


Not many of those.

Then you take out all the people who do not consider the risk worth it, out of it.


Might be quite a few of those, though.

These 2 groups would have participated if the product was legal.


But you're not accounting for people who are attracted to the market simply because its illegality = extra profit.

Either way, there is plenty of competition and monopolies are nonetheless widely created. So the point still stands.
American Orthodox: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
Jesus is Allah ن
Burkean conservative
Homophobic
Anti-feminist sexist
♂Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know men and women aren't the same.♀

User avatar
Lomenore
Diplomat
 
Posts: 861
Founded: Mar 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lomenore » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:59 am

ZombieRothbard wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:As I have pointed out Christ knows how many times, just about any market that's existence is/was illegal (and thus is free from government regulation on regular transactions), has been monopolized by a criminal element, despite much competition.

This has barely been addressed at all.


Because what you say makes no sense. Criminals are still in competition with each other, and given a court system to settle disputes, the coercive elements of competition would be removed.


A Court system would require coercive elements to enforce its rulings. If people voluntarily agreed on a resolution to a problem, they wouldn't need courts.

I feel we're just wasting time debating you because when I challenge your assumptions, you ignore me. When I provide examples of historical evidence, you ignore that. And then a few pages later you whine about how I can't talk about this thing until I refute the post you made ten pages ago, which you also ignored. I'll just say, if you're that hellbent on living free of evil government mafia monopoly mobsters, go to Somalia and enjoy Libertard paradise.
Last edited by Lomenore on Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bienenhalde, Breizh-Veur, Dimetrodon Empire, Emotional Support Crocodile, Gun Manufacturers, Hurdergaryp, Ostroeuropa, Page, Reich of the New World Order, Tarsonis, The United Penguin Commonwealth

Advertisement

Remove ads