Privatized police department.

[Sibirsky]

Don't imply shit.

Don't be so sensitive. It was a joke.

I'm fucked up right now. Not in a joking mood. Sorry.

[The Parkus Empire]

Why not, exactly?

I would argue that void of government regulation, there is no mechanism in a purely free market by which you can monopolize an industry.

Coercion or mutual peaceful agreement.

[The Black Forrest]

A purely free market can't exist. People will cheat it all the time. Monopolies will rise.........

Monopolies generally rise at the hands of the state.

Certain monopolies make sense. Power delivery for example. What would you want competing wire everywhere?

Monopolies will happen simply because there will be a top dog and people being the way they are will set about to squash competition.

Again. Your dream is nothing more then a fantasy. People aren't going to go "Oh good no more regulation to worry about; we will only compete........"

[ZombieRothbard]

How exactly does one "cheat" the free market?

Oligopoly + merger = monopoly.

That business is still in competition with hypothetical future entrants, so they would have to sell high quality products for low prices, or risk being out-competed by new upstarts.

[The Black Forrest]

Don't be so sensitive. It was a joke.

I'm fucked up right now. Not in a joking mood. Sorry.

No worries.

[ZombieRothbard]

Monopolies generally rise at the hands of the state.

Certain monopolies make sense. Power delivery for example. What would you want competing wire everywhere?

Monopolies will happen simply because there will be a top dog and people being the way they are will squash competition.

Again. You dream is nothing more then a fantasy. People aren't going to go "Oh good no more regulation to worry about; we will only compete........"

How do you squash competition?

[Wamitoria]

Monopolies generally rise at the hands of the state.

Certain monopolies make sense. Power delivery for example. What would you want competing wire everywhere?

Monopolies will happen simply because there will be a top dog and people being the way they are will squash competition.

Again. You dream is nothing more then a fantasy. People aren't going to go "Oh good no more regulation to worry about; we will only compete........"

Even in a pure free-market (which I don't believe is possible, but I digress), oligopolies will form. And an oligopoly is only one merger away from a monopoly.

[Sibirsky]

Monopolies generally rise at the hands of the state.

Certain monopolies make sense. Power delivery for example. What would you want competing wire everywhere?

Monopolies will happen simply because there will be a top dog and people being the way they are will squash competition.

Again. You dream is nothing more then a fantasy. People aren't going to go "Oh good no more regulation to worry about; we will only compete........"

Power lines can be shared. I mean, you got a landline? You got one phone line (typically) going to your house. You have a choice of service providers.

[Wamitoria]

Oligopoly + merger = monopoly.

That business is still in competition with hypothetical future entrants, so they would have to sell high quality products for low prices, or risk being out-competed by new upstarts.

Oligopolies can force new upstarts out using the private police and the private courts in your hypothetical system.

[ZombieRothbard]

I would argue that void of government regulation, there is no mechanism in a purely free market by which you can monopolize an industry.

Coercion or mutual peaceful agreement.

Coercion isn't part of a free market. Peaceful agreement, like cartels etc., are easily broken when one of the companies breaks rank and undercuts their fellow cartel members, seizing the market share. A new upstart could also emerge and undercut the cartel.

[ZombieRothbard]

That business is still in competition with hypothetical future entrants, so they would have to sell high quality products for low prices, or risk being out-competed by new upstarts.

Oligopolies can force new upstarts out using the private police and the private courts in your hypothetical system.

Let me ask you this, if I were to take a minarchist position that courts, police and the military should be provided by a night watchmen state that did not control any other aspects of the market, would you agree that there would be no means by which competing businesses could squash competition?

[The Black Forrest]

Certain monopolies make sense. Power delivery for example. What would you want competing wire everywhere?

Monopolies will happen simply because there will be a top dog and people being the way they are will squash competition.

Again. You dream is nothing more then a fantasy. People aren't going to go "Oh good no more regulation to worry about; we will only compete........"

Power lines can be shared. I mean, you got a landline? You got one phone line (typically) going to your house. You have a choice of service providers.

Ahh but why share it? If I own the method of delivery; I can can control the market. Competition be damned......

[The Parkus Empire]

Coercion isn't part of a free market. Peaceful agreement, like cartels etc., are easily broken when one of the companies breaks rank and undercuts their fellow cartel members, seizing the market share. A new upstart could also emerge and undercut the cartel.

They tend to kill the undercutter or buy him out, historically speaking, if he tries to horn in on their customer base.

Not sure you understand how the mob works.

[ZombieRothbard]

Power lines can be shared. I mean, you got a landline? You got one phone line (typically) going to your house. You have a choice of service providers.

Ahh but why share it? If I own the method of delivery; I can can control the market. Competition be damned......

Maybe nobody wants your ugly landlines running through their property, when they only have the possibility of receiving one service provider with it.

[Wamitoria]

Oligopolies can force new upstarts out using the private police and the private courts in your hypothetical system.

Let me ask you this, if I were to take a minarchist position that courts, police and the military should be provided by a night watchmen state that did not control any other aspects of the market, would you agree that there would be no means by which competing businesses could squash competition?

It would be more difficult, yes.

But, that's only if various corporations don't buy out the politicians.

[ZombieRothbard]

Coercion isn't part of a free market. Peaceful agreement, like cartels etc., are easily broken when one of the companies breaks rank and undercuts their fellow cartel members, seizing the market share. A new upstart could also emerge and undercut the cartel.

They tend to kill the undercutter or buy him out, historically speaking, if he tries to horn in on their customer base.

Not sure you understand how the mob works.

if the startup company has a superior product that is capturing the majority of the market share, as compared to the horribly inefficient monopoly that is charging high prices for low quality goods, why would it allow the monopoly to buy them out?

[The Black Forrest]

Coercion or mutual peaceful agreement.

Coercion isn't part of a free market. Peaceful agreement, like cartels etc., are easily broken when one of the companies breaks rank and undercuts their fellow cartel members, seizing the market share. A new upstart could also emerge and undercut the cartel.

You assume everybody is beholden to the concept. They aren't.

You assume there will be seizing of power. That will only happen if said power can shake the up the original setup and throw it into chaos.

Few businessmen are going to throw away a sure thing for a maybe......

[Lomenore]

So we should institute a system where price wars are replaced with real wars? Where the responsibility for law enforcement is given to groups that are bought and paid for by companies that exist to make money?

I will turn your logic against you, and point out that it costs money to wage wars. So if you are willing to accept the premise that companies are out to make profit, it makes no sense that they would wage expensive wars, unless there was a profit motive to do so. I shot down the possibility of there being a profit motive to do so many times over, earlier in this topic.

If there's something to fight over, and it justifies the investment, companies will fight over it just like governments would. If there's an oil well, what does it matter whether a government or an oil company invades it? You seem to think that wars are always more expensive then the wealth gained by controlling territory.

Let's say Lomenore Inc. spent a hundred billion dollars to conquer Niceguy City, a metropolis of 5 million. Now, that's a pretty big expense. But Niceguy City is now a company town. Those 5 million people have to buy food, housing, fuel, cars, clothing, and everything else from company stores. So Lomenore inc. will make that money back pretty quickly.

Now that Niceguy City is a company town, all buildings are company property. Therefore, anyone who wants a place to stay has to pay rent. So assuming 500,000 heads of household, with 9 dependents each, pays 500 dollars a month for rent, that's 6,000 per household per year. Assuming there's $150 for water and electricity, with another $50 for tv, telephone service, and internet, that bumps rent up to $700 a month, and 8,400 a year. With 500,000 people paying, that's 4.2 billion a year that Lomenore Realty is raking in.

But of course, these citizens have to eat. So let's say Lomenore Cuisine sells three meals a day for 5 dollars each, that's $15 a day, $5,475 a year, with 5 million citizens. That's $27,375,000,000 a year. Assuming each person in Niceguy City can only eat once a day, that's still 9.125 billion. So adding that to the 4.2 billion Lomenore Realty is making, and the profits from Lomenore Cuisine, that's 13.325 billion dollars a year. That's enough to recoup the costs of a hundred billion dollar invasion campaign in seven and a half years.

Since the company owns the city, the citizens have to work for the company. Assuming a fifteen mile commute to the office, that's thirty miles a day, there and back again. If the car gets 30 miles to the gallon, and the tank holds 30 gallons, they'll need to refuel about once a month. If gasoline sold by Lomenore Oil and Gas costs $5 a gallon, that's $150 per month. Assuming only one person in ten owns a car, that's 500,000 cars in the city, that's $900 million. If half the people in the city own a car, that's 2 and a half million cars, with 1800 a year for gas, adds up to 4 and a half billion dollars.

Assuming fuel costs are 1$ a gallon, that's thirty dollars a month, $360 a year. 360 times 500,000 equals 180 million. If we go with the second figure, 2.5 million cars spending $360 a year on gas, that's still 900 million.

So, if gas prices are high, Lomenore Oil and Gas will be getting 4.5 billion. Add in the 4.2 billion from Lomenore realty, and the 13.325 billion from Lomenore Cuisine, Lomenore Inc. is making 22,025,000,000 a year so far. So there's a mere 5 years before this very expensive invasion starts paying for itself.

So far we're making money on food, housing, utilities, and gas. But wait! There's more! According to the Lomenore inc funded Lomenore Research Institute, all cars not produced by Lomenore Automotive have been declared Unsafe At Any Speed. The company will be conducting a mandatory recall, and Lomenore Security will be strongly encouraging each driver to buy a new, safe, and mostly affordable vehicle from Lomenore Automotive. Our new 2011 vehicle, the Highwayman, is on sale now for the low low price of $15,000!

So, assuming there are only 500,000 drivers in Niceguy city, that's 7.5 billion raked in. They can voluntarily consent to pay the Highwayman, or they can voluntarily consent to be shot dead by Lomenore Security. So 7.5 billion from auto sales, 4.5 billion for gas to drive those cars, 4.2 billion for rent, and 13.325 billion for food. Giving us an annual income of 29.525 billion from our new conquest, paying for the campaign in less then 4 years.

So, under the benevolent rule of Lomenore Inc, residents of Niceguy city have food, housing, cars, and affordable gas. But what about water? Well, thanks to our wonderful corporate state, we have no wasteful regulatory bodies like the EPA. So the nearby water has been bottled and sold, with no pesky purification or filtering. Lomenore Inc cuts out the middleman and passes the savings on to you! But for those who like the very best, there is our Aqua Pura, only the cleanest and most wholesome of drinks. Rumors that it is simply ordinary tap water bottled and resold are slander, and Lomenore Security punishes slander with death. So, assuming 4 liters of drinking water a day, at $1 a liter, that's 20 million liters consumed each day. 20 million a day for 365 days, that's 7.3 billion. Added to the 29.525 billion, that's 36.825 billion per annum. The cost of the conquest will be paid off in just under three years.

So, tell me again how warfare isn't profitable?

[ZombieRothbard]

Let me ask you this, if I were to take a minarchist position that courts, police and the military should be provided by a night watchmen state that did not control any other aspects of the market, would you agree that there would be no means by which competing businesses could squash competition?

It would be more difficult, yes.

But, that's only if various corporations don't buy out the politicians.

So have I converted you from a fascist, to a strict constitutional austro-libertarian?

[Wamitoria]

They tend to kill the undercutter or buy him out, historically speaking, if he tries to horn in on their customer base.

Not sure you understand how the mob works.

if the startup company has a superior product that is capturing the majority of the market share, as compared to the horribly inefficient monopoly that is charging high prices for low quality goods, why would it allow the monopoly to buy them out?

No, you aren't listening.

It's perfectly possible that the monopolistic forces will kill the upstart.

[Wamitoria]

It would be more difficult, yes.

But, that's only if various corporations don't buy out the politicians.

So have I converted you from a fascist, to a strict constitutional austro-libertarian?

No. I still like welfare, taxes, and business regulations. I just admit that minarchist states would probably be more safe and less monopolistic than (hypothetical) anarcho-capitalist areas.

[The Black Forrest]

Ahh but why share it? If I own the method of delivery; I can can control the market. Competition be damned......

Maybe nobody wants your ugly landlines running through their property, when they only have the possibility of receiving one service provider with it.

If my land lines are in place, you are not going to want more ugly land lines because you can have some hopeful competition. You also assume you will get a reasonable price in a reasonable time. Setting up the delivery will take time and a great deal of money......

[Sibirsky]

Power lines can be shared. I mean, you got a landline? You got one phone line (typically) going to your house. You have a choice of service providers.

Ahh but why share it? If I own the method of delivery; I can can control the market. Competition be damned......

I don't know. Presumably they sell in bulk, or some shit. I know Verizon owns our lines but you can go with someone else. AT&T does that shit to.

[The Parkus Empire]

if the startup company has a superior product that is capturing the majority of the market share,

Not sure it would.

as compared to the horribly inefficient monopoly that is charging high prices for low quality goods,

Not sure about this either.

why would it allow the monopoly to buy them out?

Because it's offering ten times what the company can hope to make in a decade?

Or not. Still not sure you understand how the mob works. It goes a little something

[The Black Forrest]

They tend to kill the undercutter or buy him out, historically speaking, if he tries to horn in on their customer base.

Not sure you understand how the mob works.

if the startup company has a superior product that is capturing the majority of the market share, as compared to the horribly inefficient monopoly that is charging high prices for low quality goods, why would it allow the monopoly to buy them out?

Superior products are crushed all the time.

You assume the board/owners want to spend the time to compete. Why? Monopoly waves a truck load of money and the company leadership is saying right on! Best move for us the shareholders!