Education Revamped!

[SaintB]

Alright, we on NSG are mostly a rather well educated and thoughtful lot (or at least we like to think we are) and one of the biggest topics that comes up is education... mainly how bad it is and how it keeps getting worse. It doesn't matter where you live there are glaring flaws in the way education is handled, information is lost, things are left untaught, standards are constantly lowered to create a feeling of accomplishment, individuality is stifled, administrators and parents are excused from responsibility by terrible policies... the list of flaws seems endless.

If you could develop a new system for education how would you handle it? How would it be managed? What would your curriculum cover? What concepts (if any) would you promote for your students?

As usual I ask questions before I have answers to them myself so I'll answer as soon as I have my idea good and formed...

[Karosel]

Execute all those who fail, to keep them on their toes.

[UCUMAY]

Smaller class sizes, teachers who want to teach, and allowing students to fail based on merit. That'd be a good start.

[Dakini]

Parental involvement. I don't mean that the parents are involved in telling the teachers that what they're doing is wrong. I mean that the parents should be involved in helping their children with their schoolwork and the like.

Also, teachers should be paid better and not nearly as overworked. Further, they should be treated like educators, not glorified babysitters.

[Yuktova]

Execute all those who fail, to keep them on their toes.

Your kidding, right? If I had to revamp the Education system I would make it so that children with Special needs would be easier to pass, and also make it easier for everyone. (Not easy as in, you can ace a test if you didn't study, but easy as if you try your best, so effort would atribute to your total grade in a sense)

Maybe have some downtime for the high School students in the middle of the day to rest their brains, and actually give them good lunches with REAL food, no fake shit.

[Tubbsalot]

(Not easy as in, you can ace a test if you didn't study, but easy as if you try your best, so effort would atribute to your total grade in a sense)

And you had the gall to ask someone else if they were kidding.

[Dakini]

Execute all those who fail, to keep them on their toes.

Your kidding, right? If I had to revamp the Education system I would make it so that children with Special needs would be easier to pass, and also make it easier for everyone. (Not easy as in, you can ace a test if you didn't study, but easy as if you try your best, so effort would atribute to your total grade in a sense)

No, school should be harder so children will learn more.

Maybe have some downtime for the high School students in the middle of the day to rest their brains, and actually give them good lunches with REAL food, no fake shit.

Downtime in the middle of the day is called "lunch". Who actually buys food at their high school cafeteria? Pack a lunch that's as wholesome as you want it.

[Great Nepal]

- Make P.E completely optional.
- Create sections in each year (A1,A2,A3,A4,B1,B2.....) and best students (judged by final exam's percentage) will be in A1 and worst in lowest section.
- Give A1 best qualified teacher whereas the lowest section gets worst qualified one out of those which are available.
- Uses percentage system rather than grade one and give rank so as to cause competition.
- Exam each 3 month; Unit test every month. All unit tests contributes percentages in exams and all exams contribute toward final exam.
- Main focus on: Science, Maths, English, National language.
- Least focus on: Foreign languages, PE (as shown in point 1), Technology.
- Harsh punishments.
- If you fail the final exam (Get below 45%) you repeat the class.
- Fail 3 times in same class and you are out of school.
- Cancel mandatory education.

[Sociobiology]

Do what my state does to be a teacher you must have at least a BS, pass two very tough 3hr tests (praxis), assist in a class of at least a year, take a teaching class and pass, and pass a background check.
it would be nice, if after that, they actually gave the teachers some leeway to teach instead of shoving a format down their throat and hanging them out to dry if a parent isn't happy their kid is failing.
here is a list of what you need to know to pass grade X, if you do not know it you repeat the grade until you do, no exemptions.

another thing my state does teachers above a certain grade are required to take a minimum number of accredited college, subject or education specific, credit hours a year, I would add that the fee's for these are paid for by the state.
other things I would add.

pay schools in an inverse proportion to their class size and the ratio of administrators to teachers.

a senator's pay will not be determined independently but will be set at the average of all public teachers, and police in his/her home state.

a scholarship paying all the college costs of a teacher (teachers getting a teaching degree, or a subject that can be taught at a elementary level, so not say a pharmacology or criminal science degree) in return for them teaching at a location determined by the government for four years.

a bonus given to teachers based on a comparison between students entry and exit exams, this would of course require an entry and exit exam.

set up an independent board of teachers, doctors, and scientists who determine the acceptability of a states textbooks. Textbook publishers will only receive payment for their lowest bid submission, regardless of which submissions are approved.

School boards will be required to get a predetermined passing score (somewhere in the 1500's) of an advanced placement SAT or ACT test in order to be eligible. Administrators will be held to the same standard.


decrease the length of the summer break and increase the length of the winter break by 80% of that loss. a three month long down time is a great set back each year.

only 3/4 of a teachers time with students will be set for state curriculum the rest of the curriculum will be determined by the teacher.

almost forgot my favorite, a tax incentive for the parents of students who score in the top 10th percentile of the SAT or ACT.
pay teachers the same regardless, (based on seniority) but divide the students into different classes based on grades, that way disruptive students aren't in the same classes as those that actually want to learn. and this would give each group a more targeted education, those who need it could get more attention and those that don't could be given more difficult information.
And now you can see how teachers are doing much easier than before, because you already know the level they are starting with.
in high school only 1/2 - 2/3 of a student's classes will be pre-determined, the rest will be selected by the student, with the help of a guidance councilor, from a list of electives.

[Al-Harakut al-Islami]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGp ... dded#at=34

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Execute all those who fail, to keep them on their toes.

It would certainly raise the average test scores.

[Hellsgrind]

One thing I love in particular about home is that you get to have options early on, this means that at an early age you choose what career paths you want to take and then take the classes accordingly. My experience here in America as an exchange student has shown me that the primary education systems are largely a failure because they are so big but accomplish so little. A good reason for this are the education cuts, which America -LOVES- to do, but then you have the fact that they are still essentially learning the same thing in their Twelfth grade as they were in their Sixth. This does not help them with real life at all and only serves to repeat messages that will likely be ignored by the student because he/she is already so tired of hearing the same thing over and over again.

[Takaram]

Parental involvement. I don't mean that the parents are involved in telling the teachers that what they're doing is wrong. I mean that the parents should be involved in helping their children with their schoolwork and the like.

Also, teachers should be paid better and not nearly as overworked. Further, they should be treated like educators, not glorified babysitters.

Agreed. Teaching today is such a thankless job that I fail to understand why anyone would go into it. I mean, I enjoy teaching fairly well and would actually consider it for a career, but it's just awful the way that teachers get treated by students, parents, and society at large, and I think I'd grow to resent it.

[Hellsgrind]

Parental involvement. I don't mean that the parents are involved in telling the teachers that what they're doing is wrong. I mean that the parents should be involved in helping their children with their schoolwork and the like.

Also, teachers should be paid better and not nearly as overworked. Further, they should be treated like educators, not glorified babysitters.

Agreed. Teaching today is such a thankless job that I fail to understand why anyone would go into it. I mean, I enjoy teaching fairly well and would actually consider it for a career, but it's just awful the way that teachers get treated by students, parents, and society at large, and I think I'd grow to resent it.

I am in agreement with this as well, but based off of what I have seen, a large amount of parents that do not really care about their children's education seem to think as the teachers are more or less State propaganda drones as opposed to real people. Which is an example of propaganda that I find horrifying.

Honestly I think that the attitude of the American people needs to more or less change when it comes to matters of the State, but then with the State the way it is, I don't know how you would do that, or explain to them the difference between the IRS and the public school teachers.

[Wamitoria]

Parental involvement. I don't mean that the parents are involved in telling the teachers that what they're doing is wrong. I mean that the parents should be involved in helping their children with their schoolwork and the like.

Also, teachers should be paid better and not nearly as overworked. Further, they should be treated like educators, not glorified babysitters.

^This

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Outsource students to China or India.

[Unidox]

Do away with most standardized test, especially state level ones. Allow educators to refocus their way(s) of teaching.
Smaller and/or Online classes.
Group kids whom learn similarly into classes with teacher that specialize in that particular method. Stronger funding for technology, the arts, and the teachers.
Emphasize on Science, Math, Language, History, extra-curricular Clubs.
PE remains; as physical activity has been shown to help with attention spans, memory retention, build more gray matter, and allows for another avenue for students to vent stress.
Set schedule/lunches based on individual metabolic rate.
Allow hour long lunches.
Set limits for amount of homework that can be given out weekly.
Replace text books with ebooks.
Promote diversity.
....

[NERVUN]

In my dream world...

1. Parental and community involvement in the schools. One of the things I love about teaching in Japan is that, for the most part, parents are very involved in their children's education. School is not seen as a place to shove your child for a few hours while you work, but something that is very, very important. It goes beyond that though, schools in Japan anchor the whole of the community, even for those who do not have children in the school (So much so that the government of Japan insisted on schools starting up again in the quake/tsunami zone not just to give the kids structure, but with the understanding that the school year is so important to the community at large that the re-starting of classes provides a way to drag those shattered towns and villages out of crisis mode and start them rebuilding and getting back to normal). It's not unusual to see local business leaders at entrance and graduation ceremonies for schools in their area and they open their doors more to the idea of students coming in to have work experiences to help guide them to what they might want to do.

2. Better, and more equal, funding. Schools are usually funded through property taxes and it almost always ends with schools that need the most help having the least amount of money. This needs to change. Rich schools do better, they can afford better equipment, more experienced teachers, fix problems, and *gasp* even leave the school for field trips. It's not throwing money as much as it is attempting to give each school what they actually need to suceed.

3. Better pay for teachers. We're professionals, we're not paid as such though.

4. More flexability in terms of curriculum and school set ups. Not all children will learn well in the traditional way, but not all children would be happy in an experimental school either. There has to be flexability built into the system to allow for children who are struggling to be able to continue their education in ways that can help them. The key words here though are children who are stuggling. This shouldn't be taken as a "Let's get rid of all the schools and go to whatever-flavor-of-the-month-educational-method schools. Most children do fine in traditional schools. If we really were doing as bad as the doomsayers claim, our country would have imploded long before. We wouldn't have the university system we have because we wouldn't have the students for them. Some 87% of children go through the public school system, but no one is claiming that 87% of Americans are unlettered idiots. It's the ones who are not doing well that need other options.

5. Better methods of student assessment. There actually are better methods out there. Standardized testing is a horrible method, but we as a nation keep holding it up as if it were some kind of Holy Grail if test scores are raised. Test scores mean very little in terms of actual performance, improvement, or even what is taught. We have to get away from this, but that will take a lot of money and understanding that we may not have quantifiable data the way people want to see it.

6. Better teacher recruitment/mentoring/training/retention. We have a large problem. Most of the teaching force in the US is graying rapidly. Over 50% of new teachers quit before they hit year 5, burnt out for the most part. Many who go into the system are idealist who want to work with kids and change the world and find out that there is no magic bullet to do so. Then there are, sadly, those who go into teaching assuming that it's an easy job that one can't get fired from. The problem is that the best and the brightest, unless they feel the need to teach, go on to higher paying jobs. Those that DO want to teach tend to burn out when they become disillusioned. We need to get the best into the classrooms. They need to be trained to teach (Which, believe you me does NOT consist of just standing at a blackboard and lecturing), and they need to be paired with a master teacher to help them when they run into problems and keep them in the classroom. Oh, and better pay of course.

7. Student ownment of schools. Japan has a great system where the students are more or less given ownership of the schools. They clean them, they put on most of the event programming (And I mean that, they design and carry it out) and they tend to have far more actual pride in their schools than any peprally crew in the US.

8. Finally... You. The US as a whole. One of my favorite quotes from one of my prosessors was that society does not mirror schools, schools mirror society. We don't create the society, we're created by and a part of it. Fixing schools does not mean the end of all ills, though people tend to feel that way. If we really want good schools, we as a people have to change ourselves to start to value them. Americans tend to not value education for a wide range of reasons (Some of them are the old pioneer myths, a dislike for the 'fancy talking yahoo from back East with his book learnin'), and it shows in the schools that we build and the children we send to them. If children see that their parents and the leaders of the nation do not value schools (Or even worse, say they do, but refuse to put their money where their mouth is), they too will not value their schools or education. Fix this first and the rest will follow.

In my perfect world...

[Daistallia 2104]

From the thread of the same topic from last week:

how would you redo the educational system in your country, assuming you think it needs to be redone?

In the past I've made no bone about my frankly being pretty well ready to dismantle the school system as is in the US completely.

I'd like to see something like Europe's dual education system, with a strong emphasis on post general education vocational education through publicly and institutionally supported apprenticeships and internships alongside an open public academy system of publicly supported continuing liberal arts and science education and a selective private academy system. Apprenticeships and internships would be supported by a combination of trade unions or businesses, repectively, along with public monies. Let's say 10 years of general education followed by 5 years of joint general education and either apprenticeship or internship training at a trade union organization or business office - 50% of the student's time is in secondary general education and 50% is in apprenticeship or internship training.

It might work something like this:

Students A and B both complete 10 years of general education.

Student A is interested in becoming a fashion designer. He has a choice of finding an internship at a design house or an apprenticeship with a designer's union. He's unlucky and there are no suitable internships this year, so he opts for the apprenticeship. He attends a local public secondary school for 4 hours in the morning and then the apprenticeship program for 4 hours in the afternoon. After 2 years, he has to pass an apptitude test. Assuming he passes, he continues 3 more years until his final exam. If he does not, he is free to enter another training program. If the final exam is failed, he can opt to extend the program up to 2 more years and then retake the test or to enter another training program. On passing the final exam, he is a qualified journeymen fashion designer and finds employment with the help of the designer's union. After a few years, he develops an interest in philosophy. He signs up for a free introductory course at the local public continuing education academy. He does very well. After several more courses, he is recommended to a private academy, where he continues his studies and branches into teaching.

Student B wants to be a business manager. He finds an internship at Big Fancy Widgets, Inc. He attends a local public secondary school for 4 hours in the morning and then the internship program for 4 hours in the afternoon. After 2 years, he has to pass a performance review. Assuming he passes, he continues 3 more years until his final review. If he does not, he is free to enter another training program. If the final review is passed, he is hired. What happensd otherwise will depend on the details of the business contract.

One thing everyone ought to keep in mind in all this is NERVUN's "the problem of Gerlach, Nevada".

Here's the problem with Gerlach, Nevada.

Gerlach is a very small town located in North-West Nevada on the edge of the Black Rock Desert, its population is about 200 people, or thereabouts. The closest city is Reno, which is 3 and a half hours away on a good day. You do not want to try that drive on a BAD day (A friend up there will try to make it into Reno during winter only with a full survival kit in the car and money in her pocket in case she needs to overnight at a hotel hoping for the roads to clear).

Gerlach has three bars (One of which is Bruno's) a restaurant (Bruno's) and a motel (Bruno's). It also has a gas station (owned by Bruno). Most of the residents of Gerlach either work for Bruno, at the Empire Mine (Gypsum) about an hour down the road (That has the only grocery store in the area selling the finest frozen foods), are retires, or work for the county. The rest are the ranchers and prospectors that dot the area.

But Gerlach also has a school. It as two, Gerlach Elementary and next to it, Gerlach Middle and High School. The student population was, last time I looked at it, about 50 or so kids. The graduating class of Gerlach Middle and High is usually less than 10. Washoe County School District looses money on that school. The county receives far, far less money out of property taxes from Gerlach than it pays in terms of the physical plant and teacher salaries, not to mention supplies and the like. But they are out there, for 50 students, because the Nevada Constitution states that all children within the state of Nevada MUST be educated and that the state MUST build schools, even in places like Gerlach.

So the problem of Gerlach, Nevada for those who loudly proclaim that we should abolish public education is one of, and what do we do with those kids? Their parents work. Gerlach is an economically depressed area. Either the family is working at the mine, ranching, or working for Bruno. They do not have the luxury of having a single family income, both must work (And indeed, if it's a new family, chances are if they are working at the mine, one parent is probably on the night shift) so homeschooling is out. Given the small size of the student population, private schools wouldn't make a profit up there. Companies tend to close anything not making a profit after all. The kids cannot be realistically asked to go somewhere else because there IS nowhere else within reach. Reno is 3 and a half hours away, far too long of a commute for children and that's IF the roads are clear, which in the winter they are often not. The next closest community is Cedarville, in California and about two hours away (Which actually has the same problem of Gerlach, small and isolated).

The thing is, there are a lot of these kinds of communities scattered around the United States. They do have families in them and they do have children. Those children do need to be educated. I went to university with some of the graduated from Gerlach. Hell, the current Majority Leader of the US Senate is from Searchlight, Nevada (Population just over 500) so yes, important people do come from those kinds of towns. So abandoning those children is not an option, but they must be educated.

So you tell me, in an area where homeschooling will not be an option for the bulk of the population and which is too small for a private school to make money off of, just how are these kids, whom right now depend on that fact that the state governments require schools to be built and staffed for them, to be educated? solve for me the problem of Gerlach, Nevada should we follow your suggestion and do away with public education if you would please.

[Daistallia 2104]

Downtime in the middle of the day is called "lunch".

I do think that some mid-day downtime other than lunch would be a good idea.

Who actually buys food at their high school cafeteria? Pack a lunch that's as wholesome as you want it.

And lots of kids buy school lunches. In some places it's starting to be required because school lunches are often more nutritious than those brought by brown bagging it, sad to say. (Jamie Oliver, Morgan Spurlock, and others who're covering the issues involved in school lunch programs are on to something. Feeding kids a crap diet of sugar, fat, artificial flavorings, and not much else is part of the problem with the US education system.)

[Aescentia]

I'd like to find my two-post rant from an Education thread past, but here's the meat of it:

Shoot most of the administration, allow teachers to teach properly, allow dropping students after the eighth grade, and, basically, something like the dual-education system.

[Dakini]

Downtime in the middle of the day is called "lunch".

I do think that some mid-day downtime other than lunch would be a good idea.

We had an hour and a bit for lunch (it was the same length as the other periods in high school). This was enough downtime, I thought. I got more in my last year since I'd taken too many courses and was able to have some spares, but I didn't really need this time, it just gave me more time to do work or go to the mall.

Who actually buys food at their high school cafeteria? Pack a lunch that's as wholesome as you want it.

And lots of kids buy school lunches. In some places it's starting to be required because school lunches are often more nutritious than those brought by brown bagging it, sad to say. (Jamie Oliver, Morgan Spurlock, and others who're covering the issues involved in school lunch programs are on to something. Feeding kids a crap diet of sugar, fat, artificial flavorings, and not much else is part of the problem with the US education system.)

It must be a US thing. One of my friends forgot to bring their lunch one time so we all went through the cafeteria line with them. The food looked really gross.

It also saved my parents (/me) a lot of money if I just made a sandwich in the morning and grabbed an apple and juice. I think the lunches at school were over $5, mine probably cost $2.

[Aescentia]

I do think that some mid-day downtime other than lunch would be a good idea.

We had an hour and a bit for lunch (it was the same length as the other periods in high school). This was enough downtime, I thought. I got more in my last year since I'd taken too many courses and was able to have some spares, but I didn't really need this time, it just gave me more time to do work or go to the mall.

And lots of kids buy school lunches. In some places it's starting to be required because school lunches are often more nutritious than those brought by brown bagging it, sad to say. (Jamie Oliver, Morgan Spurlock, and others who're covering the issues involved in school lunch programs are on to something. Feeding kids a crap diet of sugar, fat, artificial flavorings, and not much else is part of the problem with the US education system.)

It must be a US thing. One of my friends forgot to bring their lunch one time so we all went through the cafeteria line with them. The food looked really gross.

It also saved my parents (/me) a lot of money if I just made a sandwich in the morning and grabbed an apple and juice. I think the lunches at school were over $5, mine probably cost $2.

How the hell did you get an hour and a bit for lunch?

We get thirty-five minutes.

[Daistallia 2104]

- Make P.E completely optional.

Bad idea.

- Create sections in each year (A1,A2,A3,A4,B1,B2.....) and best students (judged by final exam's percentage) will be in A1 and worst in lowest section.
- Give A1 best qualified teacher whereas the lowest section gets worst qualified one out of those which are available.

So, you're setting up a system of increasingly negative feedback loops.

- Uses percentage system rather than grade one and give rank so as to cause competition.

Education is not a competition.

- Main focus on: Science, Maths, English, National language.

You forgot Civics.

- Least focus on: Foreign languages, PE (as shown in point 1), Technology.

Again, bad ideas.

- Harsh punishments.

Harsh punishments are a sign of a failed educator.

- If you fail the final exam (Get below 45%) you repeat the class.

45% passing mark? Seriously? So you plan to basically give everyone a passing grade.

- Cancel mandatory education.

Bad idea.

[ZombieRothbard]

Privatize the education system, allow students to dictate their own curriculum's, and allow the free market of idea's contribute to the betterment of humanity.