NationStates

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:32 am**

Jasonovia wrote:Unless God is this set morality, rather than the arbitrator of it.

God is not a morality. Moralities don't forgive sins, create universes, etc..

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:32 am**

Bottle wrote:
Jasonovia wrote:Goodness has a set meaning and God is goodness itself. So it is not a tautology because this now precludes God's nature from containing things that defy goodness (some things aren't good). Since God doesn't have a say as to what goodness entails, it's not subjective.

Nobody believes that, not even theists. Here's my simple proof:

Let's pretend (because why not) that God decides to speak to you directly. You have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it is God speaking to you; it IS God. God says unto you, Jasonovia, I want you to go forth and find the cutest and nicest puppy you can find. Then I want you to torture that puppy as brutally as you possibly can. Cause it as much pain as you possibly can, and make it last as long as you possibly can.

Do you do it? How do you find yourself feeling about torturing that puppy?

Now, same situation and same questions, but replace "puppy" with "human baby."

Do you find yourself thinking, "God would never do that!!!"? Probably you do, because you have a sense of good and evil that is independent of God. You don't WANT to brutalize a little puppy. You don't WANT to torture an infant. You know those actions are wrong. Because you, like most people, have empathy and the ability to feel lousy about doing horrible things, whether or not God says it's okay to do those things.

This is why, for example, I've never met a Bible-believing Christian who went around raping little girls and selling them into slavery, even though God specifically condones that activity in the Bible. Bible-believing Christians look at what is written in the Bible and match it up against the moral code that they already hold, and they use THAT to decide what is really God's Will and what was just human error.

You don't believe that God = good and good = God, you just have been taught to think that you believe that. Which is good, because if you really believed what you claim to believe then you'd be a horrible, dangerous person who nobody should ever be in a room with alone.

No, because I don't believe in Divine Command (i.e. it's not good just because God says it is). By the same token, this scenario is impossible, because God is incapable of commanding anything but good. See the distinction?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:33 am**

Bottle wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
If I was trying to get in your head, you wouldn't know if it was working or not. Anyway the Bible is also full of human interaction. I fail to understand what exactly seperates the Bible from any one of the countless other texts from ancient times.

And if you say because its the word of God, then expect me to laugh at you again.

Just imagine: if he'd been born in a different country or even just to a different set of parents, he'd be telling us about how the Quran is clearly the Word of God. Or how the Sutras are the voice of the divine. Or how John Smith was the true Prophet and brought truth straight from God's own angels.

Ha but I am not fortunate enough for me

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:33 am**

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Jasonovia wrote:
Unless God is this set morality, rather than the arbitrator of it.

Unless he's not. Simply saying he might be something doesn't mean he is.

We were using this definition for the sake of argument.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:34 am**

With all the suffering in the world, and people dying, and such, how can there be a god? I don't care if this world is supposed to be bad because eventually "you'll go to heaven if you put your faith in god". That just makes you lazy, you think "I'm done, I don't need to do anything more for this planet", and don't care about living your life, also particularly because your "god" says you can't do certain things cause it's a sin. Screw that. I live everyday like it's my last, and if I go to hell, at least I'll know all the cool people will be waiting for me.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:35 am**

Jasonovia wrote:No, because I don't believe in Divine Command (i.e. it's not good just because God says it is). By the same token, this scenario is impossible, because God is incapable of commanding anything but good. See the distinction?

Yep, I see you confirming precisely what I said. "God wouldn't command that!" Why? Because it's not Good. Which you define INDEPENDENT from God. You declare God to be incapable of commanding anything that YOU don't believe is Good. Your view of Good comes first, and you create God in your mind's image.

Which is normal. Probably 99% of religious people do that. Because religious people get their morality from the same place that non-religious people get morality: from their own experiences, values, and culture. It's just that you put in a God-image as a middle man to make your personal morality seem stronger and more important, while atheists don't bother doing that.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:36 am**

Our Lady Skye Sweetnam wrote:With all the suffering in the world, and people dying, and such, how can there be a god? I don't care if this world is supposed to be bad because eventually "you'll go to heaven if you put your faith in god". That just makes you lazy, you think "I'm done, I don't need to do anything more for this planet", and don't care about living your life, also particularly because your "god" says you can't do certain things cause it's a sin. Screw that. I live everyday like it's my last, and if I go to hell, at least I'll know all the cool people will be waiting for me.

Wow.
God already knows that your going to sin because it is human nature to sin.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:37 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:
Bottle wrote:Just imagine: if he'd been born in a different country or even just to a different set of parents, he'd be telling us about how the Quran is clearly the Word of God. Or how the Sutras are the voice of the divine. Or how John Smith was the true Prophet and brought truth straight from God's own angels.

Ha but I am not fortunate enough for me

I think you missed the point. What seperates the bible from any other ancient text? What makes it so goddam special?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:37 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:God already knows that your going to sin because it is human nature to sin.

And who's fault is it that human nature is that way?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:39 am**

*8D

"You don't have to believe in God or disbelieve in God, you only have to know you ARE God." -- Brian Barritt

You are in the Presence because you are that Consciousness.... you only have to become AWARE and recognize it;
and then LIVE it -> because you are the Godhead!

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:39 am**

Bottle wrote:
Jasonovia wrote:No, because I don't believe in Divine Command (i.e. it's not good just because God says it is). By the same token, this scenario is impossible, because God is incapable of commanding anything but good. See the distinction?

Yep, I see you confirming precisely what I said. "God wouldn't command that!" Why? Because it's not Good. Which you define INDEPENDENT from God. You declare God to be incapable of commanding anything that YOU don't believe is Good. Your view of Good comes first, and you create God in your mind's image.

Which is normal. Probably 99% of religious people do that. Because religious people get their morality from the same place that non-religious people get morality: from their own experiences, values, and culture. It's just that you put in a God-image as a middle man to make your personal morality seem stronger and more important, while atheists don't bother doing that.

So in other words your morality is arbitrarily based on society while mine is based on (if true) a concrete, immutable existence outside of myself. It goes beyond my own desires, but is rooted in reason, which God is also ultimately necessary for.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:40 am**

Jasonovia wrote:
Bottle wrote:Yep, I see you confirming precisely what I said. "God wouldn't command that!" Why? Because it's not Good. Which you define INDEPENDENT from God. You declare God to be incapable of commanding anything that YOU don't believe is Good. Your view of Good comes first, and you create God in your mind's image.

Which is normal. Probably 99% of religious people do that. Because religious people get their morality from the same place that non-religious people get morality: from their own experiences, values, and culture. It's just that you put in a God-image as a middle man to make your personal morality seem stronger and more important, while atheists don't bother doing that.

So in other words your morality is arbitrarily based on society while mine is based on (if true) a concrete, immutable existence outside of myself. It goes beyond my own desires, but is rooted in reason, which God is also ultimately necessary for.

Assuming God exists.
Well, assuming your God exists.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:40 am**

Unhealthy2 wrote:
Unified America-Canada wrote:God already knows that your going to sin because it is human nature to sin.

And who's fault is it that human nature is that way?

Adam and Eve.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:41 am**

Jasonovia wrote:So in other words your morality is arbitrarily based on society while mine is based on (if true) a concrete, immutable existence outside of myself.

Except that you don't. You come to moral conclusions and then fool yourself into believing that god agrees exactly with whatever set of convictions you've come up with.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:41 am**

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Unified America-Canada wrote:Ha but I am not fortunate enough for me

I think you missed the point. What seperates the bible from any other ancient text? What makes it so goddam special?

He thinks that he lucked out and happened to be born to a family that happened to worship the One True God. Just like he would believe if he'd been born to Muslim parents, or Hindu parents, or Mormon parents, or whatever else.

Well, or more precisely, he's play-acting a character who believes that. But I'm playing along for the sake of the discussion, since he is simulating a normal religious perspective.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:41 am**

Jasonovia wrote:
Bottle wrote:Yep, I see you confirming precisely what I said. "God wouldn't command that!" Why? Because it's not Good. Which you define INDEPENDENT from God. You declare God to be incapable of commanding anything that YOU don't believe is Good. Your view of Good comes first, and you create God in your mind's image.

Which is normal. Probably 99% of religious people do that. Because religious people get their morality from the same place that non-religious people get morality: from their own experiences, values, and culture. It's just that you put in a God-image as a middle man to make your personal morality seem stronger and more important, while atheists don't bother doing that.

So in other words your morality is arbitrarily based on society while mine is based on (if true) a concrete, immutable existence outside of myself. It goes beyond my own desires, but is rooted in reason, which God is also ultimately necessary for.

God is not necessary for reason. ONly sentience is required.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:41 am**

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Unified America-Canada wrote:Ha but I am not fortunate enough for me

I think you missed the point. What seperates the bible from any other ancient text? What makes it so goddam special?

It was ordained by God

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:41 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:
Unhealthy2 wrote:
And who's fault is it that human nature is that way?

Adam and Eve.

So why punish thousands of generations for 2 people's bad decisions?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:42 am**

Arayania wrote:People who believe in god or seek religion are just weak.That's why Aryans are superior to others they do not seek religion that's how we tricked you idiots into killing the inferiors for us if we had won ww2 we would have exterminated you all anyway.Religion is for idiots and weaklings

*** Warned for trolling ***

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:43 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:Adam and Eve.

How so? It's in my nature to sin not because I was created with a nature to sin, but because 2 people ate some fruit and that inescapably changed my nature so that not sinning is impossible? Even still, why didn't god make it so that their eating of the fruit didn't automatically force me to sin even if I don't want to? So much for free will.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:43 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:I think you missed the point. What seperates the bible from any other ancient text? What makes it so goddam special?

It was ordained by God

( Don't act suprised. I told you I was gonna laugh.)

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:44 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:It was ordained by God

You know this how?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:44 am**

Gaiso wrote:
Unified America-Canada wrote:Adam and Eve.

So why punish thousands of generations for 2 people's bad decisions?

Read the Bible.
Adam and Eve ate a fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:45 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:
Gaiso wrote:So why punish thousands of generations for 2 people's bad decisions?

Read the Bible.
Adam and Eve ate a fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

And?

Posted: **Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:45 am**

Unified America-Canada wrote:
Gaiso wrote:So why punish thousands of generations for 2 people's bad decisions?

Read the Bible.
Adam and Eve ate a fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

So why didn't God just fix the next generations?
By the way, I did read the Old Testament. I was raised Jewish.

NationStates

God.

Presence of God