God.

[The Great Watchers]

True, it was a different time back then. You have to admit the world was very barbaric a long time ago, correct? Even if you don't belive in the idea of God, you have to at least belive what it teaches help society (Most parts, I mean. I'm a bit thrown about the homosexuality part.). The parts that talk about not stealing, not lying, etc. Those parts had people lead much healthier lives. It was the first real step towards us treating each other fairly.

I was just asking. I'm not here to bash anyone. Everyone has the right to an opinion.

The bits about stealing and murdering are in China too, and were there before Abrahamic religions got there. They were also in Native American cultures. One does not need Abrahamic faith to not steal and not murder. It also seems that those who practice an Abrahamic religion are more prone to murder and theft, a la European Imperialism, the Crusades, Jihads, Inquisition, etc.

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

[Gaiso]

The bits about stealing and murdering are in China too, and were there before Abrahamic religions got there. They were also in Native American cultures. One does not need Abrahamic faith to not steal and not murder. It also seems that those who practice an Abrahamic religion are more prone to murder and theft, a la European Imperialism, the Crusades, Jihads, Inquisition, etc.

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

You don't see it on such a massive scale with non-Abrahamic religions.

[Aurensia]

Blue. Next question?

[Jimanistan]

Probably, though I rather doubt that the Creator is a busybody that sits over the Earth and micromanages our lives, playing favorites by helping one person find their car keys but refusing to help another evade an Axe-wielding murderer. I always assumed God had more important things to do, if indeed God does anything at all.

[Mosasauria]

Probably, though I rather doubt that the Creator is a busybody that sits over the Earth and micromanages our lives, playing favorites by helping one person find their car keys but refusing to help another evade an Axe-wielding murderer. I always assumed God had more important things to do, if indeed God does anything at all.

He's probably playing pinball somewhere.

[DaWoad]

The bits about stealing and murdering are in China too, and were there before Abrahamic religions got there. They were also in Native American cultures. One does not need Abrahamic faith to not steal and not murder. It also seems that those who practice an Abrahamic religion are more prone to murder and theft, a la European Imperialism, the Crusades, Jihads, Inquisition, etc.

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

yes and religions consistently put those "bad eggs" in positions of power whereas sane societies tend to try to root them out and get them out of said society where possible.

[Aurensia]

Probably, though I rather doubt that the Creator is a busybody that sits over the Earth and micromanages our lives, playing favorites by helping one person find their car keys but refusing to help another evade an Axe-wielding murderer. I always assumed God had more important things to do, if indeed God does anything at all.

He's probably playing pinball somewhere.

No. I don't like pinball. Bowling is more my thing.

Why yes, I am a middle aged white guy now. That's why everything's going to shit. I just don't have the energy I used to before retirement.

[Dyakovo]

I believe in God, and science. They are one in the same. If they work together,then they can work out the scientific part of religion.
"Religion isn't wrong. Science is just too young to understand."

Too young to understand what?

Gawd

See, obviously since christianity has been around longer than modern science it must be right and science wrong.
*nods*

[Norstal]

The bits about stealing and murdering are in China too, and were there before Abrahamic religions got there. They were also in Native American cultures. One does not need Abrahamic faith to not steal and not murder. It also seems that those who practice an Abrahamic religion are more prone to murder and theft, a la European Imperialism, the Crusades, Jihads, Inquisition, etc.

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

Well then, that doesn't make it better than science.

I haven't seen scientists commit genocides and conducted crusades.

[Gaiso]

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

Well then, that doesn't make it better than science.

I haven't seen scientists commit genocides and conducted crusades.

Well scientists have committed genocide against bacterial populations, as well as crusades against misinformation.

[Jasonovia]

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

yes and religions consistently put those "bad eggs" in positions of power whereas sane societies tend to try to root them out and get them out of said society where possible.

I think this has more to do with 1) never being given the chance to be a dominant religion and 2) the grass always looks greener on the other side. Buddhists appear to be total pacifists-- that is unless you live in Burma. And it seems to me that every Communist state that has ever existed puts an atheist "bad egg" in a position of power.

[Gaiso]

yes and religions consistently put those "bad eggs" in positions of power whereas sane societies tend to try to root them out and get them out of said society where possible.

I think this has more to do with 1) never being given the chance to be a dominant religion and 2) the grass always looks greener on the other side. Buddhists appear to be total pacifists-- that is unless you live in Burma. And it seems to me that every Communist state that has ever existed puts an atheist "bad egg" in a position of power.

But atheists don't commit atrocities because of atheism. The examples I listed earlier were driven by religion.

[Norstal]

Well then, that doesn't make it better than science.

I haven't seen scientists commit genocides and conducted crusades.

Well scientists have committed genocide against bacterial populations, as well as crusades against misinformation.

Well, we've also forcefully move particles and manipulate equations to our own ebil will!

But, they're not humans or people.

[DaWoad]

yes and religions consistently put those "bad eggs" in positions of power whereas sane societies tend to try to root them out and get them out of said society where possible.

I think this has more to do with 1) never being given the chance to be a dominant religion and 2) the grass always looks greener on the other side. Buddhists appear to be total pacifists-- that is unless you live in Burma. And it seems to me that every Communist state that has ever existed puts an atheist "bad egg" in a position of power.

I said sane.societies did I not?

moreover, what do you mean by "dominant religion"? Atheism isn't a religion and the places that are secular are generally doing a hell of a lot better than those places that are theocracies.

[Trading Empires]

I'd have to disagree with that. Every religion is prone to have bad people who lie, steal, murder. It isn't prominent with just an Abrahamic religion. There are bad eggs everywhere. It just depends on who's in power at the time.

Well then, that doesn't make it better than science.

I haven't seen scientists commit genocides and conducted crusades.

The holocaust...? The Japanese labour camps?

Ideologies are what people kill for.

[Norstal]

Well then, that doesn't make it better than science.

I haven't seen scientists commit genocides and conducted crusades.

The holocaust...? The Japanese labour camps?

Ideologies are what people kill for.

Those are not scientists. Those are just people who want to kill other people.

Note that the Holocaust is pseudo-scientific. Their conclusions are based off inconclusive proofs. The same as what the Japanese did to the Chinese. In no way can poisoning people be scientific.

[Jasonovia]

I think this has more to do with 1) never being given the chance to be a dominant religion and 2) the grass always looks greener on the other side. Buddhists appear to be total pacifists-- that is unless you live in Burma. And it seems to me that every Communist state that has ever existed puts an atheist "bad egg" in a position of power.

But atheists don't commit atrocities because of atheism. The examples I listed earlier were driven by religion.

If anything their atheism is what enables communist regimes to be so brutal. They need not make excuses for breaking their own moral codes in order to justify their own atrocities; their brutality is their moral code. That is not to say communism is the only atheist philosophy out there, but since we're making judgement calls on the whole based on the actions of the extremist few here I'd say it's fair game.

[DaWoad]

But atheists don't commit atrocities because of atheism. The examples I listed earlier were driven by religion.

If anything their atheism is what enables communist regimes to be so brutal. They need not make excuses for breaking their own moral codes in order to justify their own atrocities; their brutality is their moral code. That is not to say communism is the only atheist philosophy out there, but since we're making judgement calls on the whole based on the actions of the extremist few here I'd say it's fair game.

bullshit?
the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust (Judaism is a religion after all), protecting child molesters, the various religious atrocities in africa and etc.

secular places? they tend to be nice places to live. Everywhere else? not so much.

[Gaiso]

If anything their atheism is what enables communist regimes to be so brutal. They need not make excuses for breaking their own moral codes in order to justify their own atrocities; their brutality is their moral code. That is not to say communism is the only atheist philosophy out there, but since we're making judgement calls on the whole based on the actions of the extremist few here I'd say it's fair game.

bullshit?
the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust (Judaism is a religion after all), protecting child molesters, the various religious atrocities in africa and etc.

secular places? they tend to be nice places to live. Everywhere else? not so much.

Not to mention Hitler used the deicide theory as a reason for genocide.

[Unhealthy2]

They need not make excuses for breaking their own moral codes in order to justify their own atrocities;

No, but unlike religious people (and no, for all you ultra-defensive types, I'm not saying that all religious people do it), they really can't say that god condones their actions. Religions that traditionally conquered didn't make up excuses. They just said that the brutality was necessary because it was a command from god.

their brutality is their moral code.

Brutality is the moral code of communism? Nonsense. Communist dictators may have attempted to justify unforgivable acts of brutality, but that is completely different from saying that "Be as brutal as you can all the time." is the moral code of communism.

That is not to say communism is the only atheist philosophy out there,

Not only that, but Stalinist communism isn't the only kind of communism. Do you even know what Marx advocated? Probably not, as most people are ignorant about what communism is beyond a few Fox News soundbites. Marxism is a STATELESS system. It is a system without any central authority wherein the people work together, sharing resources and collectively owning the means of production. Say what you want about it being unrealistic, it's still NOT what Stalin was all about.

but since we're making judgement calls on the whole based on the actions of the extremist few here I'd say it's fair game.

Ah yes, the "They do it too!" defense.

Also, note for the slow, I AM NOT A COMMUNIST. Please do not claim that I am. You cannot conclude that I advocate a specific ideology just because I'm defending it from unfair attacks.

[Jasonovia]

If anything their atheism is what enables communist regimes to be so brutal. They need not make excuses for breaking their own moral codes in order to justify their own atrocities; their brutality is their moral code. That is not to say communism is the only atheist philosophy out there, but since we're making judgement calls on the whole based on the actions of the extremist few here I'd say it's fair game.

bullshit?
the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust (Judaism is a religion after all), protecting child molesters, the various religious atrocities in africa and etc.

secular places? they tend to be nice places to live. Everywhere else? not so much.

The crusades were in response to Saracen invasion of Byzantium. The Spanish Inquisition was to ensure fealty to the Spanish Crown. The Jews were the target of the holocaust because they were a foreign ethnic group. Child molestation has always been severely against Catholic teaching. The wars in Africa are as much tribal as having to do with religion. History 101.

Could it have more to do with freedom of religion perhaps? Do you know where else there is freedom of religion? Vatican City. Not a very secular place, that.

[Dyakovo]

The Jews were the target of the holocaust because they were a foreign ethnic group.

Sorry, but that is wrong.

[DaWoad]

bullshit?
the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust (Judaism is a religion after all), protecting child molesters, the various religious atrocities in africa and etc.

secular places? they tend to be nice places to live. Everywhere else? not so much.

The crusades were in response to Saracen invasion of Byzantium.

and the reason that every catholic state that could afford to (and some that couldn't) got involved? the reason that crusaders slaughtered innocents time and again? Holy sanction.

The Spanish Inquisition was to ensure fealty to the Spanish Crown.

that used religion as a prop to justify it's horrors.

The Jews were the target of the holocaust because they were a foreign ethnic group.

got proof?

Child molestation has always been severely against Catholic teaching.

teachings sure. In practice?

The wars in Africa are as much tribal as having to do with religion.

I'm sorry but people aren't and weren't being massacred systematically along tribal lines save in Rwanda. Everywhere else? those were religious differences. Worse, even in a supposedly secular conflict various members of the church allegedly helped orchestrate mass killing, presenting false sanctuary and the like.

History 101.

a course you should probably take.

Could it have more to do with freedom of religion perhaps?

make that freedom from religion and I'll agree with you. When religion has a place of real authority and power things go badly. When it does not, they do not.

Do you know where else there is freedom of religion? Vatican City. Not a very secular place, that.

nope, and it supports my argument, the vatican being the place from which the pope has repeatedly tried to cover up child molestations. Do you not understand how messed up that is?

[Gaiso]

bullshit?
the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust (Judaism is a religion after all), protecting child molesters, the various religious atrocities in africa and etc.

secular places? they tend to be nice places to live. Everywhere else? not so much.

The crusades were in response to Saracen invasion of Byzantium(1). The Spanish Inquisition was to ensure fealty to the Spanish Crown(2). The Jews were the target of the holocaust because they were a foreign ethnic group (3). Child molestation has always been severely against Catholic teaching(4). The wars in Africa are as much tribal as having to do with religion(5). History 101.

Could it have more to do with freedom of religion perhaps? Do you know where else there is freedom of religion? Vatican City. Not a very secular place, that.

1) Do you know what the Catholic Church used to gain support for the Crusades? Something along the lines of "Holy War", perhaps?
2) The Spanish Inquisition was not the only Inquisition. Besides, Isabella and Ferdinand wanted to have a pure, Catholic nation (hence the Reconquista).
3) Blatantly false. Hitler used the deicide theory, Jewish stereotypes, and undirected angst over the Treaty of Versailles to justify the killing of the Jews.
4) Yes, I agree. The route of the cause is suppressed sexuality within the church.
5) What separates most of the tribes is religion.
History 101.

[Jasonovia]

The crusades were in response to Saracen invasion of Byzantium(1). The Spanish Inquisition was to ensure fealty to the Spanish Crown(2). The Jews were the target of the holocaust because they were a foreign ethnic group (3). Child molestation has always been severely against Catholic teaching(4). The wars in Africa are as much tribal as having to do with religion(5). History 101.

Could it have more to do with freedom of religion perhaps? Do you know where else there is freedom of religion? Vatican City. Not a very secular place, that.

1) Do you know what the Catholic Church used to gain support for the Crusades? Something along the lines of "Holy War", perhaps?
2) The Spanish Inquisition was not the only Inquisition. Besides, Isabella and Ferdinand wanted to have a pure, Catholic nation (hence the Reconquista).
3) Blatantly false. Hitler used the deicide theory, Jewish stereotypes, and undirected angst over the Treaty of Versailles to justify the killing of the Jews.
4) Yes, I agree. The route of the cause is suppressed sexuality within the church.
5) What separates most of the tribes is religion.
History 101.

Your repeated use of "used" just proves my point. You can "use" literally anything to justify your own actions of ulterior motives. The question is, does it really?