God.

[Tarish]

The point of being agnostic is to avoid answering the question of whether or not you believe in the existence of a deity or deities?

I know what agnosticism is. Apparently you don't know what atheism is. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity or deities.

No. The point of agnosticism is not avoiding, it's admitting that I have no idea whether or not there is a deity. And I do know what atheism is, actually. I'm not sure if there is a god or not (agnostic) because of no proof either way, however, that lack of proof causes me to side a little more with the atheism side. All I'm saying is, I'm in no place to say whether or not there is a deity, but I do think that more than likely, there isn't one. Does that make any sense?

Also, it seems like you're trying really hard to pick fights. To challenge someone that does not have the same beliefs as you is understandable. But to challenge the one that is unsure, but leaning towards your side? not exactly. I'm practically on your side.

[Ceannairceach]

Then the great mystery shouldn't complain when I don't worship him.

I don't think He does.

Depending on your religion, he condemns me to death for it.

[Dyakovo]

The point of being agnostic is to avoid answering the question of whether or not you believe in the existence of a deity or deities?

I know what agnosticism is. Apparently you don't know what atheism is. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity or deities.

No. The point of agnosticism is not avoiding,

And yet that is what you just claimed...

it's admitting that I have no idea whether or not there is a deity.

Which again says nothing about whether or not you believe one (or more) exist.

And I do know what atheism is, actually. I'm not sure if there is a god or not (agnostic) because of no proof either way, however, that lack of proof causes me to side a little more with the atheism side. All I'm saying is, I'm in no place to say whether or not there is a deity, but I do think that more than likely, there isn't one. Does that make any sense?

Yes. It is pretty much the exact same position I take as an implicit atheist.

[DaWoad]

that's not an answer.

Actually, it is. I was humbled by my accident. I was calmed the fuck down. Who knows how many other times I might have had the chance. It sucks that I had to be shown in that manner, but that what made me see the light. You don't. For reason that are not important to anyone but yourself. I simply have to trust that God knows how to deal with you on terms that you'd be comfortable with. I had to be slapped around. You're likely not as stubborn as I am.

what are you on about now? Your proof of god is that you didn't believe in the christian god (you were apparently still theist). The you got in an accident. God did nothing (as would be expected of a non-existent mythical figure) so now you believe in a christian god?

Would you do that with anything else? Ever? I mean honestly. Something bad happens, you get no proof that said thing was caused by anything other than the physical, god does not intervene in even the slightest way, you suddenly believe in god.

[Distruzio]

God is mystery. God is not proof.

so god doesn't exist?

He exists insofar as you accept that there are things you do not know. If you are comfortable with humility, then God will likely exist for you.

[Dyakovo]

No. The point of agnosticism is not avoiding, it's admitting that I have no idea whether or not there is a deity. And I do know what atheism is, actually. I'm not sure if there is a god or not (agnostic) because of no proof either way, however, that lack of proof causes me to side a little more with the atheism side. All I'm saying is, I'm in no place to say whether or not there is a deity, but I do think that more than likely, there isn't one. Does that make any sense?

Also, it seems like you're trying really hard to pick fights. To challenge someone that does not have the same beliefs as you is understandable. But to challenge the one that is unsure, but leaning towards your side? not exactly. I'm practically on your side.

Not trying to pick a fight (nor am I ever trying to convert anyone), I am just pointing out the saying you're agnostic when asked if you believe in a god is not answering the question.

[Dyakovo]

so god doesn't exist?

He exists insofar as you accept that there are things you do not know. If you are comfortable with humility, then God will likely exist for you.

So god is bigger for ignorant people than he is for the well educated?

[Tarish]

No. The point of agnosticism is not avoiding,

And yet that is what you just claimed...

it's admitting that I have no idea whether or not there is a deity.

Which again says nothing about whether or not you believe one (or more) exist.

And I do know what atheism is, actually. I'm not sure if there is a god or not (agnostic) because of no proof either way, however, that lack of proof causes me to side a little more with the atheism side. All I'm saying is, I'm in no place to say whether or not there is a deity, but I do think that more than likely, there isn't one. Does that make any sense?

Yes. It is pretty much the exact same position I take as an implicit atheist.

I don't believe anything! that's the entire point! I don't know why you keep reiterating that I've said nothing about whether or not i believe god exists when I've made it clear that I am not informed/enlightened enough to take a stance on this issue, or in other words, I'm agnostic that sympathizes with the atheist claims.

[Jasonovia]

we provably don't

We've already been through this. If you don't like the word "God" just call it something else.

the entire basis of your morality is god? That just creepy.

This is news to you? The goal of all Christians is to do what they do out of love of God and no other reason. “Think of what the Saints have done for their neighbor because they loved God."-St. Alphonsius Liguori

[DaWoad]

so god doesn't exist?

He exists insofar as you accept that there are things you do not know. If you are comfortable with humility, then God will likely exist for you.

I'm completely comfortable with not knowing everything and feel no need to put god in to fill the gaps in my, personal understanding. One might even say that I'm humble enough to understand that I don't know everything rather than being arrogant enough to assume that anything I don't know has to be the province of god.

[Dyakovo]

And yet that is what you just claimed...

Which again says nothing about whether or not you believe one (or more) exist.

Yes. It is pretty much the exact same position I take as an implicit atheist.

I don't believe anything! that's the entire point!

Belief is not the same thing as knowledge.

I don't know why you keep reiterating that I've said nothing about whether or not i believe god exists

Because with saying "I'm agnostic" you haven't

when I've made it clear that I am not informed/enlightened enough to take a stance on this issue, or in other words, I'm agnostic that sympathizes with the atheist claims.

I do not know whether or not any deity exists, yet I am comfortable in saying that I lack belief in their existence.

[Tarish]

I don't believe anything! that's the entire point! I don't know why you keep reiterating that I've said nothing about whether or not i believe god exists when I've made it clear that I am not informed/enlightened enough to take a stance on this issue, or in other words, I'm agnostic that sympathizes with the atheist claims.

belief is not the same thing as knowledge.
I do not know whether or not any deity exists, yet I am comfortable in saying that I lack belief in their existence.

Well I tend to base my beliefs on facts/proof that are laid in front of me.

[HongWu Ben]

God. Do you believe in him? Or is he not real? Please share your opinions/beliefs.

(the Christian God is the one I am talking about)

"christian God !?!?" ok. you're asking christians..but..logicaly,'christians' believe in God. People who don't believe in God are automaticaly not christians.. So for that people it's not a matter..I mean your add: 'christian God'... hehehe it is infact an idiotic question,you dumb...I mean..what the hell you thinking???

( sorry for my english,i preffer not to use any translation programs)

[Distruzio]

Actually, it is. I was humbled by my accident. I was calmed the fuck down. Who knows how many other times I might have had the chance. It sucks that I had to be shown in that manner, but that what made me see the light. You don't. For reason that are not important to anyone but yourself. I simply have to trust that God knows how to deal with you on terms that you'd be comfortable with. I had to be slapped around. You're likely not as stubborn as I am.

what are you on about now? Your proof of god is that you didn't believe in the christian god (you were apparently still theist). The you got in an accident. God did nothing (as would be expected of a non-existent mythical figure) so now you believe in a christian god?

Would you do that with anything else? Ever? I mean honestly. Something bad happens, you get no proof that said thing was caused by anything other than the physical, god does not intervene in even the slightest way, you suddenly believe in god.

No. I said I was misotheist. I was angry with God. I originally thought I was an atheist until someone on NS corrected me. I rejected God b/c I was too arrogant to accept that I didn't know everything. Once I let go of that arrogance it was easy to relax.

God did do something. He never left. He was flogged, flayed, ridiculed, and crucified. It isn't as if He doesn't understand pain. All I had to do was know some fraction of what He went through and find that He was still there. He took all that the unbelievers had to offer and remained. Is that not doing something? I'm sorry that I'm not making any sense to you. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm not an evangelist. I'm simply attempting to articulate (poorly it would seem) the manner in which I was able to see God.

I'd be lying if I said that I don't have moments or even days where I don't doubt Him. He's a big boy. He can take it. He's still there whenever I put aside my pride every time.

[Distruzio]

He exists insofar as you accept that there are things you do not know. If you are comfortable with humility, then God will likely exist for you.

So god is bigger for ignorant people than he is for the well educated?

Not exactly. God is bigger for the humble rather than the arrogant. I have met a number of well-educated scientists and philosophers.

[DaWoad]

we provably don't

We've already been through this. If you don't like the word "God" just call it something else.

*nods* I'll continue refering to it as the big bang theory, abiogensis through natural means and evolution respectively.

the entire basis of your morality is god? That just creepy.

This is news to you? The goal of all Christians is to do what they do out of love of God and no other reason. “Think of what the Saints have done for their neighbor because they loved God."-St. Alphonsius Liguori

except few Christians do, and the ones that do are generally those that turn up on the news grinning at the camera with the title "serial killer caught" in block caps above the picture. What most Christians do is develop a system of morality outside of Christianity the same way everyone else does then apply the biblical verses that they find suitable to their morality after the fact. It's why few modern Christians actually use the OT as part of their system of morality despite Christ's implicit command that OT laws hold true in the NT.

[DaWoad]

what are you on about now? Your proof of god is that you didn't believe in the christian god (you were apparently still theist). The you got in an accident. God did nothing (as would be expected of a non-existent mythical figure) so now you believe in a christian god?

Would you do that with anything else? Ever? I mean honestly. Something bad happens, you get no proof that said thing was caused by anything other than the physical, god does not intervene in even the slightest way, you suddenly believe in god.

No. I said I was misotheist. I was angry with God. I originally thought I was an atheist until someone on NS corrected me. I rejected God b/c I was too arrogant to accept that I didn't know everything. Once I let go of that arrogance it was easy to relax.

God did do something. He never left. He was flogged, flayed, ridiculed, and crucified. It isn't as if He doesn't understand pain. All I had to do was know some fraction of what He went through and find that He was still there. He took all that the unbelievers had to offer and remained. Is that not doing something? I'm sorry that I'm not making any sense to you. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm not an evangelist. I'm simply attempting to articulate (poorly it would seem) the manner in which I was able to see God.

I'd be lying if I said that I don't have moments or even days where I don't doubt Him. He's a big boy. He can take it. He's still there whenever I put aside my pride every time.

how, exactly, did you know that there was anything there to leave?

[Ceannairceach]

So god is bigger for ignorant people than he is for the well educated?

Not exactly. God is bigger for the humble rather than the arrogant. I have met a number of well-educated scientists and philosophers.

Humbleness does not factor in to believing in God. I'd like to think myself as humble, though I'll leave this up to others to judge, and I certainly don't believe in god.

[Distruzio]

He exists insofar as you accept that there are things you do not know. If you are comfortable with humility, then God will likely exist for you.

I'm completely comfortable with not knowing everything and feel no need to put god in to fill the gaps in my, personal understanding. One might even say that I'm humble enough to understand that I don't know everything rather than being arrogant enough to assume that anything I don't know has to be the province of god.

Then there is nothing to worry about!

Recall my original point was to illustrate that Christians (by which I mean the theology of the orthodox faith) are comfortable enough to give this province a name. You aren't there, then *shrug* whatevs. You ain't evil, and you ain't going to hell for it.

[Dyakovo]

belief is not the same thing as knowledge.
I do not know whether or not any deity exists, yet I am comfortable in saying that I lack belief in their existence.

Well I tend to base my beliefs on facts/proof that are laid in front of me.

As do I. Which is why I lack belief in any deity. No proof of their existence has been laid out in front of me.

You know, you claim you are sympathetic to the "atheist position" but all you're doing is showing that you don't know what atheism is. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity or deities, not necessarily actively believing they do not exist (although that is one form of atheism).

[Dyakovo]

Not exactly. God is bigger for the humble rather than the arrogant. I have met a number of well-educated scientists and philosophers.

Humbleness does not factor in to believing in God. I'd like to think myself as humble, though I'll leave this up to others to judge, and I certainly don't believe in god.

Nah. You're an arrogant fucker, what with your claiming certainty about the unknowable all the time...
wait, nevermind that's not you...

[DaWoad]

So god is bigger for ignorant people than he is for the well educated?

Not exactly. God is bigger for the humble rather than the arrogant.

how is it humble to claim that the only reason you don't know everything is that god fills the gaps. That would seem to me to be the height of arrogance. "I can't explain it therefore it must only be understandable by an ultimate being so high above us that he/she/it/whatever is entirely incomprehensible to humans." against "I don't know? Someone in that field might or it might remain unexplained. Let's go find out shall we? and if no-one knows maybe we can try to find out."

of those two, which seems more humble to you.

I have met a number of well-educated scientists and philosophers.

well yes, they generally are well educated.

[Dyakovo]

So god is bigger for ignorant people than he is for the well educated?

Not exactly. God is bigger for the humble rather than the arrogant. I have met a number of well-educated scientists and philosophers.

That, however, is not what you have claimed. You claimed that "God" is whatever you do not know.

[Distruzio]

how, exactly, did you know that there was anything there to leave?

That, I cannot honestly answer. I've always known. I rejected it for the majority of my life. I was not raised in a church. I wasn't even raised spiritual. I never went to church until after I had read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible. I only went to ridicule Christians as fools. I can't remember not knowing, and I can't remember not being angry at Him... until my accident.

[Dyakovo]

Not exactly. God is bigger for the humble rather than the arrogant.

how is it humble to claim that the only reason you don't know everything is that god fills the gaps. That would seem to me to be the height of arrogance. "I can't explain it therefore it must only be understandable by an ultimate being so high above us that he/she/it/whatever is entirely incomprehensible to humans." against "I don't know? Someone in that field might or it might remain unexplained. Let's go find out shall we? and if no-one knows maybe we can try to find out."

of those two, which seems more humble to you.

The latter seems a shit-load more humble to me...