God.

[DaWoad]

what has he repaired? ever? and why is his creation winding down to a slow, painful but inevitable end.

Apparently God is in charge of the company I rent my house from.

Godco
signs include:
-massive flooding
-annoying animals
-random "deliberate" accidents
-some random guy doing magic tricks
-said random guy getting crucified.

[Distruzio]

I see your inability to understand what you read is present even when not discussing politics. I said that what ever is not explainable yet, is attributed to God. Whatever is not explained, is proof of God. He is the mystery.

Obviously you don't know what proof means...

Mystery:

anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown

[Tarish]

<-- Agnostic
leaning more towards atheism, though.

Saying you are agnostic says nothing about whether or not you believe in a deity.

Um, that's the point of being agnostic. It's just saying that any claim is unknowable and I'm not taking either side of the argument. I do, however, lean towards the atheism side because the burden of proof lies with the affirmative side.

[DaWoad]

why not do so? Because a god of the gaps slows progress. Every time anyone comes up with something new they're faced by theistic idiots who will argue against any amount of evidence with no standing in a desperate attempt to not have their god loose more ground. See: the evolution "Debate".

Not true in the slightest. You are mistaking us for Protestant extremists - they are the nutjobs, I will admit. There is absolutely nothing wrong with scientific discoveries. The Church has ever seen a valid place for any amount of exploration of the world so long as we do not deny the sovereignty of God.

you just claimed that god's soverignty included the gaps in our knowledge.

For example, if, when the planets were discovered, the scientific community decided that the fact that there was space filled with other planets beyond our own was proof that God did not exist. We would take offense. All that the observations of space have proven is that we do not understand God in the way we thought we did. Now there are more planets, rather than simply one, to explore! All it proves is that creation is a sight larger than we previously thought.

except that every time this has occurred (god being declared as "in the gaps") the result is exactly as stated.

so they placed him under house arrest for the rest of his life? Moreover why (oh gods why) should the church have any say whatsoever in the physical.

B/c we are not Protestants. There is no distinction between the salvation offered to the spiritual and the salvation offered to the physical. Christ was God incarnate. Which means that since humanity is called to be the steward of creation, and God deigned to be incarnate as fully man and yet fully God, then all of creation must be redeemed.

then, again, you run into people who have no qualifications whatsoever claim dominion over the various sciences (see: galileo) on the basis of nothing. It's terrible, it's stupid, and there's no good reason for it.

on . . . what . . . .grounds?

My back was broken in a workplace accident. I suffered for 9 months. Before the accident I was a misotheist. Throughout the subsequent 9 months, I railed against God more furiously than ever before. I relearned to walk. I avoided surgery. I stayed angry and on the last day of my therapy, 6 months in, I fell, and undid everything that had been accomplished. The anger remained. The frustration grew. And yet, after 3 additional months, I discovered I was certain that God was still there. Despite my anger.

This is the ground upon which my faith is based. He didn't take away my pain. He didn't submit to my calls for proof or satisfaction. He never submitted to me. He just took the abuse I levied at him and stayed anyway. He was always there. So I accept Him now.

Is this satisfactory?

for your own personal beliefs? Maybe that's entirely up to you. To claim that there is a god? no, the results of your anecdote are exactly what one would expect to find were there no god. To claim that your church should have dominion over the sciences? oh hell no.

You certainly can deny something that doesn't conform to empirical data study. That would be the whole point to empirical studies.

We disagree.

[/quote]
on what grounds? And, again, do you not see where this is headed? If one can deny studies in the name of god then that sets us back to some time in the European middle ages. I don't want to live like that, neither do you.

[Tarish]

Obviously you don't know what proof means...

Mystery:

anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown

The definition of mystery is not equivalent to the definition of proof, bud.

[Dyakovo]

My back was broken in a workplace accident. I suffered for 9 months. Before the accident I was a misotheist. Throughout the subsequent 9 months, I railed against God more furiously than ever before. I relearned to walk. I avoided surgery. I stayed angry and on the last day of my therapy, 6 months in, I fell, and undid everything that had been accomplished. The anger remained. The frustration grew. And yet, after 3 additional months, I discovered I was certain that God was still there. Despite my anger.

This is the ground upon which my faith is based. He didn't take away my pain. He didn't submit to my calls for proof or satisfaction. He never submitted to me. He just took the abuse I levied at him and stayed anyway. He was always there. So I accept Him now.

Is this satisfactory?

So your 'proof' that your magical sky faerie exists is that when you broke your back you healed even though you hated him?

[DaWoad]

My back was broken in a workplace accident. I suffered for 9 months. Before the accident I was a misotheist. Throughout the subsequent 9 months, I railed against God more furiously than ever before. I relearned to walk. I avoided surgery. I stayed angry and on the last day of my therapy, 6 months in, I fell, and undid everything that had been accomplished. The anger remained. The frustration grew. And yet, after 3 additional months, I discovered I was certain that God was still there. Despite my anger.

This is the ground upon which my faith is based. He didn't take away my pain. He didn't submit to my calls for proof or satisfaction. He never submitted to me. He just took the abuse I levied at him and stayed anyway. He was always there. So I accept Him now.

Is this satisfactory?

So your 'proof' that your magical sky faerie exists is that when you broke your back you healed even though you hated him?

and that hesheitthing didn't do anything?

[Dyakovo]

Obviously you don't know what proof means...

Mystery:

anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown

any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something

Sorry they're not the same word.

[Jasonovia]

Not... seeing it, sorry.

I suppose I don't give much consideration for myself.

Maybe if you did you wouldn't "need" "God"?

naw, we'd still need God in order to exist and continue arguing about His existence

But I'd much more likely be either an inconsolable nihilist or a psychotic dictator "just for the laughs".

[Dyakovo]

Saying you are agnostic says nothing about whether or not you believe in a deity.

Um, that's the point of being agnostic.

The point of being agnostic is to avoid answering the question of whether or not you believe in the existence of a deity or deities?

It's just saying that any claim is unknowable and I'm not taking either side of the argument. I do, however, lean towards the atheism side because the burden of proof lies with the affirmative side.

I know what agnosticism is. Apparently you don't know what atheism is. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity or deities.

[DaWoad]

Maybe if you did you wouldn't "need" "God"?

naw, we'd still need God in order to exist

we provably don't

and continue arguing about His existence

I'd much rather live in a world where we didn't

But I'd much more likely be either an inconsolable nihilist or a psychotic dictator "just for the laughs".

the entire basis of your morality is god? That just creepy.

[Dyakovo]

So your 'proof' that your magical sky faerie exists is that when you broke your back you healed even though you hated him?

and that hesheitthing didn't do anything?

That's what I'm seeing...

[Distruzio]

My back was broken in a workplace accident. I suffered for 9 months. Before the accident I was a misotheist. Throughout the subsequent 9 months, I railed against God more furiously than ever before. I relearned to walk. I avoided surgery. I stayed angry and on the last day of my therapy, 6 months in, I fell, and undid everything that had been accomplished. The anger remained. The frustration grew. And yet, after 3 additional months, I discovered I was certain that God was still there. Despite my anger.

This is the ground upon which my faith is based. He didn't take away my pain. He didn't submit to my calls for proof or satisfaction. He never submitted to me. He just took the abuse I levied at him and stayed anyway. He was always there. So I accept Him now.

Is this satisfactory?

So your 'proof' that your magical sky faerie exists is that when you broke your back you healed even though you hated him?

Not comfortable with humility are we?

[Dyakovo]

So your 'proof' that your magical sky faerie exists is that when you broke your back you healed even though you hated him?

Not comfortable with humility are we?

Is that a "yes" or a "no"?

[DaWoad]

So your 'proof' that your magical sky faerie exists is that when you broke your back you healed even though you hated him?

Not comfortable with humility are we?

that's not an answer.

[Distruzio]

Mystery:

anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown

The definition of mystery is not equivalent to the definition of proof, bud.

God is mystery. God is not proof.

[Dyakovo]

Not comfortable with humility are we?

that's not an answer.

Were you really expecting one?

[Ceannairceach]

The definition of mystery is not equivalent to the definition of proof, bud.

God is mystery. God is not proof.

Then the great mystery shouldn't complain when I don't worship him.

[Juristonia]

When all else fails, start speaking like you're related to Yoda.

[Dyakovo]

The definition of mystery is not equivalent to the definition of proof, bud.

God is mystery. God is not proof.

Prove it. And no, repeatedly claiming it does not prove it to be true.

[DaWoad]

The definition of mystery is not equivalent to the definition of proof, bud.

God is mystery. God is not proof.

so god doesn't exist?

[DaWoad]

that's not an answer.

Were you really expecting one?

expecting? no. Hoping . . .. kinda yah.

I'm an eternal optimist.

[Tarish]

Um, that's the point of being agnostic.

The point of being agnostic is to avoid answering the question of whether or not you believe in the existence of a deity or deities?

It's just saying that any claim is unknowable and I'm not taking either side of the argument. I do, however, lean towards the atheism side because the burden of proof lies with the affirmative side.

I know what agnosticism is. Apparently you don't know what atheism is. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity or deities.

No. The point of agnosticism is not avoiding, it's admitting that I have no idea whether or not there is a deity. And I do know what atheism is, actually. I'm not sure if there is a god or not (agnostic) because of no proof either way, however, that lack of proof causes me to side a little more with the atheism side. All I'm saying is, I'm in no place to say whether or not there is a deity, but I do think that more than likely, there isn't one. Does that make any sense?

[Distruzio]

Not comfortable with humility are we?

that's not an answer.

Actually, it is. I was humbled by my accident. I was calmed the fuck down. Who knows how many other times I might have had the chance. It sucks that I had to be shown in that manner, but that what made me see the light. You don't. For reason that are not important to anyone but yourself. I simply have to trust that God knows how to deal with you on terms that you'd be comfortable with. I had to be slapped around. You're likely not as stubborn as I am.

[Distruzio]

God is mystery. God is not proof.

Then the great mystery shouldn't complain when I don't worship him.

I don't think He does.