In Montana homosexual "recruitment" may be a felony...

[Seltwar]

No matter what new laws you come up with to try to change it, no matter how you word-play it to make it sound different, theyre all one in the same. Break one, youve broken all. Allow one, you might as well allow all.

...thats just bad logic. Their is something called flexibility and reasoning. Im done... your going to give me a stroke. Im outta here. This just when downhill so fast that you utterly destroyed logic. Go to bed. please.

[Draconian Races]

Then why does 'good' exist? What IS good or evil? If any religion can be fallible, if there is no real Word of God, then how do we create our morals. And as stated earlier, we can do as we want, regardless of society, no? Because our morals are the only ones that count, as there is no good or evil, and thus morals are subjective.

Anyway, night.

Morals dont need religion.
Im atheist and i believe that killings is wrong...that person has as much right to life as me.
Stealing is wrong...its not mine.
Rape is wrong...she doesnt want to have sex.
There you go. Im a moral person. I donate to charities. I help at the animal shelter every once in a while. I donate to RELIGIOUS organizations that help Africa and the poor. I worked for the red cross for a little while.
Religion is fine if its helping but when it start's basic human rights of Food, Water, Shelter,Life, Love then i have a huge problem.
Every Human being has these rights. When you commit crime that denies a basic right i believe you forfeit that right yourself.

Why do you have morals? Where did you get them from? Why are yours valid?
What about someone who is a psychopath? They may believe rape, murder, and stealing are right, and that its immoral not to do so once a month. Isnt their moral view as valid as yours?
For that matter, what dictates a right? Where do morals come from, what is the standard we live by? Society? Inner values? (Where did the values come from then?)

Even secular philosophers and existentialists admitted that without God, there are no morals, no standards. No meaning.

And without meaning, we have to try to make our own. We cannot live consistently AND happily.
If we live happily, we ignore the fact that life is meaningless and empty, that we are random chance, doomed to die soon.
If we live consistently, we must surely struggle, for this is a cold and terrible world. We will constantly be unhappy, as everything reminds us that all is dark, that all we do means nothing in the end, since mankind will reach its own end. Noone will remember us. There is no high purpose.

[AustriaHungaryBohemia]

Primarily ceremonial, through a symbolism. The ox and donkey scripture before it is just practical XD

And as for the lost cause thing... thats why I attempt to state my beliefs. To encourage anyone who may believe similarly. To maybe point out to people a few things. Like how homosexuality is truly no different than incest, murder, rape, bestiality, pedophilia, theft, and other sins/crimes. Allow one, allow all.

Sins and crimes are NOT the same thing. Sins are between you and whatever god you may or may not believe in. Crimes are between you and society. How does homosexuality harm society? The usual arguments (STDs, unsteady relationships etc.) do not really fly. These are not inherent to homosexuality, but to promiscuity. Which is a problem, and which could, for example, be addressed by marriage rights.

Also: Why do you care so much about denying gay people earthly rights? They are going to hell, in your opinion. So why punish them here?

[Kazomal]

I always wondered why theres no Christian songs talking about gays as aggressively as that one talks about 'homophobes'

Because that is exactly what Christ said NOT to do!

Christ's #1 message was STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE TO PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK ARE SINNERS! Or did you not pay attention to the part of the Bible with Christ in it? That is between them and God. You're job, as a human, is to be nice and kind and love everyone, and not judge, or tell people that they are sinners, or to punish them, it is just to see to your own damn self and smile at and be helpful to everyone else (pointing out how they are 'sinning' does not count as being helpful.)


Love and charity are what Christ are about. "Christ as a warrior" betrays and subverts Christ to accomplish conservative, anti-Christain political goals. Judas at least has the class to hang himself when he realized that he had betrayed Christ. The "Christian" right just keeps on charging along with their slander, though.

[Kharcha chaos raptor]

therefore, any religion, and a possible further argument -though I do not support it- any morality or definition of right or wrong, could be said to be void, uncertain. but given that there still is a world (and not a post-nuclear apocalypse nightmarish version of it) is still there clearly 'good' is not limited to those who happen to believe in the right 'religion/philosophy'. nor is 'bad' limited to 'wrong religions/philosophies'.

1.Then why does 'good' exist? What IS good or evil? If any religion can be fallible, if there is no real Word of God, then how do we create our morals. And as stated earlier, we can do as we want, regardless of society, no?

2.Because our morals are the only ones that count, as there is no good or evil, and thus morals are subjective.

I(kharcha) added numbers to clarify my answers

1.no, your very argumentation hinges on that 'normal' people are not gay, your definition of 'normal people' is the society you'd like to see. therefore what you count on is that the morals are dictated by the society we live in. on that point I agree. but society changes, it is fluid. what might have been considered 'bad' 7 centuries ago might be considered 'good' today and vice versa.

2. exactly, and if they are subjective then each is entitled to his own set of them. but you are still constrained by societies definition of 'good' when expounding them. the ancient greeks thought being bi was 'good', 15 centuries later it was 'bad', who's to say it won't be good again in the fullness of time? and if so, why not now? similarly, once a society evolves to consider killing 'good', well... that society breaks down and will be replaced by one which either doesn't or breaks down itself.

thus taking the long view, eventually every society will stabilize on certain constraints on morals which, given the specifics of the time period/technology/phychology of its members/etc., it considers 'appropriate'. Without the need for 'god' to be involved.

[Kharcha chaos raptor]

Morals dont need religion.
Im atheist and i believe that killings is wrong...that person has as much right to life as me.
Stealing is wrong...its not mine.
Rape is wrong...she doesnt want to have sex.
There you go. Im a moral person. I donate to charities. I help at the animal shelter every once in a while. I donate to RELIGIOUS organizations that help Africa and the poor. I worked for the red cross for a little while.
Religion is fine if its helping but when it start's basic human rights of Food, Water, Shelter,Life, Love then i have a huge problem.
Every Human being has these rights. When you commit crime that denies a basic right i believe you forfeit that right yourself.

Why do you have morals? Where did you get them from? Why are yours valid?
What about someone who is a psychopath? They may believe rape, murder, and stealing are right, and that its immoral not to do so once a month. Isnt their moral view as valid as yours?

For that matter, what dictates a right? Where do morals come from, what is the standard we live by? Society? Inner values? (Where did the values come from then?)

Even secular philosophers and existentialists admitted that without God, there are no morals, no standards. No meaning.
And without meaning, we have to try to make our own. We cannot live consistently AND happily.
If we live happily, we ignore the fact that life is meaningless and empty, that we are random chance, doomed to die soon.
If we live consistently, we must surely struggle, for this is a cold and terrible world. We will constantly be unhappy, as everything reminds us that all is dark, that all we do means nothing in the end, since mankind will reach its own end. Noone will remember us. There is no high purpose.

source please?

[Xarithis]

I always wondered why theres no Christian songs talking about gays as aggressively as that one talks about 'homophobes'

Because that is exactly what Christ said NOT to do!

Christ's #1 message was STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE TO PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK ARE SINNERS!

*Nods*

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8:7

[Kazomal]

Because that is exactly what Christ said NOT to do!

Christ's #1 message was STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE TO PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK ARE SINNERS!

*Nods*

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8:7

That's the plot of pretty much every Jesus story:

1) Someone sins, breaks Abahamic law, etc
2) Priests/society/someone wants to punish that person
3) Christ tells them to fuck off and deal with their own sins first. If God forgives everyone, who are you to disagree and say this person must be judged? An asshole, that's who.
4) Christ finishes up with a speech on being nice to literally everyone, tells everyone to stop being assholes.

Overall message: being a nice person and displaying universal love is the only and most important commandment, and always trumps 'that person is breaking X rule!'

[Unchecked Expansion]

Now Draco, let me quote a friend of mine. She's a Christian, a lovely person and not only tolerate but gets along with people regardless of sexuality, ethnicity, gender. In fact, she is your opposite. And of people like you, she says 'you're making us all look bad'. Which you are. You're uninformed bigotry only makes your faith look archaic and barbaric, and you tar your religion and your god merely by being obnoxious and hateful.

[Kharcha chaos raptor]

*Nods*

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8:7

That's the plot of pretty much every Jesus story:

1) Someone sins, breaks Abahamic law, etc
2) Priests/society/someone wants to punish that person
3) Christ tells them to fuck off and deal with their own sins first. If God forgives everyone, who are you to disagree and say this person must be judged? An asshole, that's who.
4) Christ finishes up with a speech on being nice to literally everyone, tells everyone to stop being assholes.

which is why I applaud him. Even if he sounds like a hippie

[Samozaryadnyastan]

My faith in all political systems wanes more by the day.
This man was voted in, for Christ's sake. Go back to the 19th Century. Do not pass go.

[Kharcha chaos raptor]

Now Draco, let me quote a friend of mine. She's a Christian, a lovely person and not only tolerate but gets along with people regardless of sexuality, ethnicity, gender. In fact, she is your opposite. And of people like you, she says 'you're making us all look bad'. Which you are. You're uninformed bigotry only makes your faith look archaic and barbaric, and you tar your religion and your god merely by being obnoxious and hateful.

yes, but only in the eyes of those who refuse to accept that one person can have a different opinion from the next and still claim to be a part of the same 'group'. in that respect the people who think that the actions of a few blacken the rest are as archaic as those few.

[Unchecked Expansion]

Because that is exactly what Christ said NOT to do!

Christ's #1 message was STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE TO PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK ARE SINNERS!

*Nods*

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8:7

There probably are songs about how evil gays are though. They just don't get popular, because they suck and the majority of people have better ethical standards

[Kazomal]

Seriously, Draco, I admire your zeal and your pride, I really do, but as my posts above indicate, I think you've missed the point.

[Luciratus]

*Nods*

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8:7

There probably are songs about how evil gays are though. They just don't get popular, because they suck and the majority of people have better ethical standards

I can't really say that the song posted by the Cat Tribes is good... I don't really like the message (I prefer one about understanding not fucking) and I detest the lyrics.

[Unchecked Expansion]

There probably are songs about how evil gays are though. They just don't get popular, because they suck and the majority of people have better ethical standards

I can't really say that the song posted by the Cat Tribes is good... I don't really like the message (I prefer one about understanding not fucking) and I detest the lyrics.

It's by a popular singer, whos not actually that bad musically. Not what I'd normally listen too, but still probably better than anything anyone who supported Draconis' view would write

[Ifreann]

Why do you have morals?

They're useful for human interaction, in the general sense. Personally, they make logical sense.

Where did you get them from?

My experiences throughout my life.

Why are yours valid? What about someone who is a psychopath? They may believe rape, murder, and stealing are right, and that its immoral not to do so once a month. Isnt their moral view as valid as yours?

What does it mean for morals to be valid?

For that matter, what dictates a right?

Consensus, generally.

Where do morals come from,

Lots of places.

what is the standard we live by? Society? Inner values?

Obviously it varies from person to person.

(Where did the values come from then?)

Again, lots of places. We experience a great number of things in the course of our lives.

Even secular philosophers and existentialists

Who, exactly?

admitted that without God, there are no morals, no standards. No meaning.

Nonsense. Ask almost any non-Christian anywhere and they'll tell you that they have morals.

And without meaning, we have to try to make our own. We cannot live consistently AND happily.

Why not? Because you say so? Because you want it to be so to justify your own life choices?

If we live happily, we ignore the fact that life is meaningless and empty, that we are random chance, doomed to die soon.

False. One can be happy and accept the fact that life is temporary. I do it every day.

If we live consistently, we must surely struggle, for this is a cold and terrible world. We will constantly be unhappy, as everything reminds us that all is dark, that all we do means nothing in the end, since mankind will reach its own end. Noone will remember us. There is no high purpose.

Why do you need a high purpose? I don't.

[AustriaHungaryBohemia]

Why do you need a high purpose? I don't.

And even better question: Why would someone in search of a high purpose choose the incredibly petty purpose of bullying a minority? Fanaticism is truly mind - boggling.

[Ifreann]

Why do you need a high purpose? I don't.

And even better question: Why would someone in search of a high purpose choose the incredibly petty purpose of bullying a minority? Fanaticism is truly mind - boggling.

My guess is that some people, for whatever reason, have a deeply ingrained 'Us V Them' mentality. So deeply engrained that advancing Us and holding back or regressing Them feels deeply satisfying, and thus it's concluded to be some kind of higher calling.

[Kazomal]

And even better question: Why would someone in search of a high purpose choose the incredibly petty purpose of bullying a minority? Fanaticism is truly mind - boggling.

My guess is that some people, for whatever reason, have a deeply ingrained 'Us V Them' mentality. So deeply engrained that advancing Us and holding back or regressing Them feels deeply satisfying, and thus it's concluded to be some kind of higher calling.

Every human, every living thing has that instinct. It's an extension of self-preservation. The difference being, some people are ruled by it, and others have critical thinking skills.

[Eternal Yerushalayim]

[Tekania]

tl;dr: Montana State Rep. Ken Peterson, R-Billings, and chair of the House Judiciary Committee, thinks "recruitment" of non-gays by gays should be a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a $50,000 fine.

If only I lived in Montana... Id vote to pass this into law in a moment.

This connecting through the rest of your points made in this thread, I would like to ask, by what reasoning would one want to extend ones private religious views upon the populace through the force of the civil law? By what reasoning should the civil law become a bludgeon of Religion to enforce some particular religious discipline upon the masses? That something is not "moral" within ones own private religious beliefs alone is not justification for enforcement of that morality in the civil law, lots of things are "immoral" within the confines of private religion beliefs, worship of "others gods", working on special holy days, marrying someone of another faith, eating particular foods (sometimes at particular times)etc. which are not enforced in the civil law.

[Unchecked Expansion]

:rofl:

Indeed, this 'law' is a joke

[Davids Conglomerates]

This is STILL going?! Oh lawdy!

Why is ANYONE trying to argue to Draconian? He needs an invisible man in the sky to tell him the difference from right and wrong! He can't see that some people don't need the assistance of the massive corporation of the catholic church to be nice to people.

How do you feel anything but sorry for him? He's living in the dark ages. Probably doesn't even realise that the only reason he can sit here and spread his backwards bullshit is because of computational theory developed by Alan Turing, one of the homosexuals he so despises.

You'll gay bash, but you have no problem useing their tech. Nice.

The chap isn't worth the time to talk to him. Let it go. He can go back to lusting over his neighbours pets and banging furries, and we can all return to decent society, full of all the evil gays recruiting us that we can handle!

[Sith Korriban]

“What is hateful to thyself, do not unto thy neighbor” (Babylonian Talmud); “A man should treat all living creatures as he himself would be treated” (Sutra-Kritanga); “You must expect to be treated by others as you have treated them” (Seneca); “Do naught to others which if done to thee would cause thee pain” (Hindu Mahabharata 5.1517); “We should behave to friends as we would wish friends to behave to us” (Aristotle); “Hurt not others with that which pains yourself” (Buddhist Udanavarga 5.18); and, of course, “As you wish men to do to you, so also do you to them” (Christian Bible, Luke vi. 31).

Take a long hard look at that list. Only one's Biblical. Some of them well and truly predate the Bible. It's a pretty common concept, and it doesn't require adherence to faith. Just basic human empathy.

Specifically anti-homosexual statements are made in the Bible as well. 3 times in the OT, 3 times in the NT.

Not to mention that Christ himself referred to marriage as it was said in Genesis. And that explicitly states that marriage is to be between a man and a woman.

Wow. Way to totally and completely miss the damn point.

Protip: go back to that post, see which post of yours I was responding to. Handy hint: it's the one in which you present the laughable and contemptible suggestion that without God there can be no morals. That is what I was countering.

Is it really that hard to connect two concepts?
Here they are again.
You say 'without god, no morals.'
I say, 'actually, certain moral ideas show up a lot in humanity, not just in Christians. See?'

Is this somehow difficult to understand?

Your own faith, like the others I quoted, says to 'do unto others' etc. Basically, "treat people like you'd want to be treated." That is not an intellectually challenging notion, for fuck's sake. As proven by the fact it's not only a Bible idea, it doesn't take belief in God to understand it. That is a moral structure. A moral structure not inherently reliant on a deity.

It's reliant on empathy; that basic human principle of which you appear to be devoid, given you've advocated killing anyone who dares be persistently homosexual around you if you had power.

It's when you think about how it hurts if someone punches you, and extrapolate that it will hurt someone else if you punch them, and if you wouldn't like it, they probably wouldn't either. How is this so hard to grasp? Do you really need God telling you not to kill people? Are you really so incapable of basic human empathy that you can't reason it out based on how you wouldn't want to be murdered, so neither would others?

Because for the record? That puts your moral development somewhere around that of a toddler.