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The historical Jesus

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Sitspot
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Sitspot » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:49 pm

Probably one of the most well known non-rulers ever is William Shakespeare. Yet there is a body of opinion that claims that he didn't actually exist and another even stronger one that says he certainly didn't write the plays that have historically been attributed to him.
Unlike Christ, Shakespeare came from an age that has left us with a wealth of documentation and records. Yet none of this gives absolute proof of his existence and authorship; at least not proof enough for the doubters.
Basically if someone didn't command an army, rule a country or create artifacts that have survived until the present day, there is little or no chance that there will be absolute proof that they were fact rather than fable.
There seems to be rather more proof for Christ's existence than there is for most itinerant Hebrew philosophers of the same time period, but there is not and cannot be absolute proof.
Furthermore if a document was found tomorrow, that turned out to be an execution order, written by Pontius Pilate, sentencing to death someone called Jesus for Treason or Blasphemy, it would not change the mind of a single person contributing to this thread. Those who think there is sufficient proof would be still of the same mind and those who don't would simply say "How do we know this refers to the same Jesus?" and continue in their skepticism.
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Dakini
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dakini » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:49 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:Not really... the calendars were different, but the length of time was about the same.

Also, claiming that the ancients didn't know much about astronomy is kinda silly (especially when you include the Mayans in this). They didn't know about a lot of the things we know about, but they had motion of the Sun down pat.


Yes, the mayans were really advanced for their time, but what they knew compared to what we know now id diddly squat.

They knew how to keep track of the motions of the Sun, including knowing when the equinoxes and solstices would occur... that's all the astronomy you need to know to mark up a calendar.

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Farnhamia
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:50 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Yep. It was pretty dang universal.



If i am correct, most Evolution theories have it at that time the HOMO genie still wasn't evolved to much past apes.

It's "genus," genius. And humans certainly were around 15,000 years ago. Let me introduce you to the Würm Glaciation. And I have to modify that 15,000 to around 10,000 years ago.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:54 pm

Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Yep. It was pretty dang universal.



If i am correct, most Evolution theories have it at that time the HOMO genie still wasn't evolved to much past apes.

Umm... no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocen ... leistocene



Alright, I'll readily admit I was wrong on what the current theories are on how advanced "humans" were at that time.
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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:57 pm

Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:Not really... the calendars were different, but the length of time was about the same.

Also, claiming that the ancients didn't know much about astronomy is kinda silly (especially when you include the Mayans in this). They didn't know about a lot of the things we know about, but they had motion of the Sun down pat.


Yes, the mayans were really advanced for their time, but what they knew compared to what we know now id diddly squat.

They knew how to keep track of the motions of the Sun, including knowing when the equinoxes and solstices would occur... that's all the astronomy you need to know to mark up a calendar.



Yes, they knew how to keep a calender, but they still didn't know as much about astronomy as we do know, but that is getting off the main discussion.
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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:00 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
If i am correct, most Evolution theories have it at that time the HOMO genie still wasn't evolved to much past apes.

It's "genus," genius. And humans certainly were around 15,000 years ago. Let me introduce you to the Würm Glaciation. And I have to modify that 15,000 to around 10,000 years ago.



That link showed nothing about the stage of "human" evolution during that time.
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Farnhamia
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:02 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
If i am correct, most Evolution theories have it at that time the HOMO genie still wasn't evolved to much past apes.

It's "genus," genius. And humans certainly were around 15,000 years ago. Let me introduce you to the Würm Glaciation. And I have to modify that 15,000 to around 10,000 years ago.



That link showed nothing about the stage of "human" evolution during that time.

No, it established the recent age of the last major glaciation. You aren't going to dispute that anatomically modern humans existed then, are you?

My point was that flood myths could derive from the rise in sea levels that happened at the end of the last ice age, around 10,000 years ago. In some places, such as the then dry valley that was the Persian Gulf, the water rose as fast as a kilometer a year. That would have run people out of the area fast, and the stories would have stuck and grown.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:05 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:It's "genus," genius. And humans certainly were around 15,000 years ago. Let me introduce you to the Würm Glaciation. And I have to modify that 15,000 to around 10,000 years ago.



That link showed nothing about the stage of "human" evolution during that time.

No, it established the recent age of the last major glaciation. You aren't going to dispute that anatomically modern humans existed then, are you?



No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.
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Farnhamia
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:06 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:That link showed nothing about the stage of "human" evolution during that time.

No, it established the recent age of the last major glaciation. You aren't going to dispute that anatomically modern humans existed then, are you?



No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

I'm not sure I get your point.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Dyakovo
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dyakovo » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:08 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:No, it established the recent age of the last major glaciation. You aren't going to dispute that anatomically modern humans existed then, are you?
No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

I'm not sure I get your point.

Obviously people were stupider back then...

As proof I provide this:
Image
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Dakini
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dakini » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:09 pm

Hawkryl wrote:No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...

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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:10 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:No, it established the recent age of the last major glaciation. You aren't going to dispute that anatomically modern humans existed then, are you?



No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

I'm not sure I get your point.



The brain capability of cro-magnum man, homo erectus and others is no where near what homo sapien has.

My point is would that stage of the homo genu would have been able to pass on the memory of a "flood" to an almost world wide extant?
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Farnhamia
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:10 pm

Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...

Yes, but they could only use, you know, 5% of their brains, I mean, we only use 10%, right? *nod*
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:11 pm

Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...



yeah, and chimpanzee skulls look like human skulls, doesn't mean they can design, build and fly a C-5.
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Dyakovo
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dyakovo » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:12 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...



yeah, and chimpanzee skulls look like human skulls, doesn't mean they can design, build and fly a C-5.

Neither can you. So what?
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
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Farnhamia
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Farnhamia » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:13 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

I'm not sure I get your point.



The brain capability of cro-magnum man, homo erectus and others is no where near what homo sapien has.

My point is would that stage of the homo genu would have been able to pass on the memory of a "flood" to an almost world wide extant?

I think they could pass on stories, whyever not? They could hunt, they could gather food, they could communicate about those things, why couldn't they tell stories about how the waters rose and their ancestors were forced out of their old homes? And we're not talking about one story spreading around the world, but lots of stories growing up in lots of places. Give your ancestors some credit.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Dakini
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dakini » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:14 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:No, but anatomically modern doesn't have much to do with actual brain usage. Just because they looked like modern humans doesn't mean they could think like us.

Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...



yeah, and chimpanzee skulls look like human skulls, doesn't mean they can design, build and fly a C-5.

No, chimpanzee skulls are very different.

Further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocen ... leistocene

Modern humans appeared towards the end of the ice age. Just in time to see the waters rise.

I mean, think about it: the natives in the Americas migrated across the Bering straight when there was an ice bridge. The ice bridge melted at the end of the ice age. The natives in the Americas are modern humans. If modern humans evolved in Africa after the end of the ice age, how would modern humans have arrived in the Americas before the end of the ice age while there was still a bridge to cross onto the other continents?
Last edited by Dakini on Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:14 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...



yeah, and chimpanzee skulls look like human skulls, doesn't mean they can design, build and fly a C-5.

Neither can you. So what?



We are talking about a whole species here, not 1 representative of the species, a human can do those things, a chimpanzee can't.
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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:15 pm

Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:Unless you know, their skulls were pretty much the same or anything like that...



yeah, and chimpanzee skulls look like human skulls, doesn't mean they can design, build and fly a C-5.

No, chimpanzee skulls are very different.



Sorry, not chimpanzees, but other monkey/ape skulls do.
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Dyakovo
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dyakovo » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:17 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:yeah, and chimpanzee skulls look like human skulls, doesn't mean they can design, build and fly a C-5.

No, chimpanzee skulls are very different.
Sorry, not chimpanzees, but other monkey/ape skulls do.

No, actually they don't
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Hawkryl
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Hawkryl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:19 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:
Dakini wrote:No, chimpanzee skulls are very different.
Sorry, not chimpanzees, but other monkey/ape skulls do.

No, actually they don't



They look just as human as homo erect skulls do.
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142000 in the Wolverines.
142000000 in the Armed Forces.

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Dakini
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dakini » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:20 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:Sorry, not chimpanzees, but other monkey/ape skulls do.

No, actually they don't



They look just as human as homo erect skulls do.

Not really... but homo sapiens were around to witness the end of the ice age anyway. What's your point?

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Dyakovo
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Dyakovo » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:20 pm

Hawkryl wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Hawkryl wrote:Sorry, not chimpanzees, but other monkey/ape skulls do.

No, actually they don't



They look just as human as homo erect skulls do.

And homo erectus wasn't around anymore at the time of the last ice age, why don't you just admit you don't have a clue?
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
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Runny Butthole
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Runny Butthole » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:51 pm

Oh no, guys! The only people that wrote about Jesus close to his lifetime were his followers! Crap! Well, thats hardly evidence! Why would they know anything about Jesus? they probably forgot everything about him in the few years between his death and their writings. If Muhammad Ali wrote about Malcolm X, I certainly wouldn't believe a word that he said! Ali merely "followed" the words of Malcolm X. I imagine the only good evidence we could get about Jesus is from people who didn't even know him. -Cough-Sarcasm-Cough-

On a more serious note, friends, it seems odd to me that you have not thought about a detail that seems apparent. Why would tons of people have written about Jesus immediately after the disciples had written about him? I imagine that nobody around that time was thinkin', "hmmm. Well, we only have information about Jesus that was written by the people who followed him around for years. I reckon I oughtta write some more about that guy. I don't think we have enough information about Jesus. Just his life story four times over." They had more than enough writing about Jesus at the time. We sit here wondering why nobody wrote about him until 100 years later. Well, pals, plenty of people wrote about him right after his life, and quite honestly, it seems quite doubtful that their supreme knowledge of Jesus made them less qualified to write about him.

Peace. Have fun being negative and argumentative.

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Runny Butthole
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Re: The historical Jesus

Postby Runny Butthole » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:53 pm

whoops. I only read to a point before the monkeys.

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