Another American Civil War

[Barringtonia]

One can't assume that everyone on the bases would just throw in their lot with where they're located,

Ultimately the question is resolved in terms of which side the military joins,

If the question is based on the hypothetical where the line is just drawn, then I would ultimately give it to the North since they'd have better access to materials over the North Atlantic,

Maybe China comes in for the South but they can mostly provide men as opposed to advanced machinery and food in sufficient numbers, nor could South America,

Over the long-term the North would likely win in my opinion,

[Wilgrove]

Me and my friend are discussing this and his ignorance doesn't help, so I ask you, if the U.S. to be split like the map below, who would win?
Seeing that the south holds more Naval Ports however the North having more Army and Air force bases.


With Alaska going to the CSA and Hawaii to the to the USA.
don't worry about the cause, it just happened, I also wish to state that I don't believe the U.S. will fall into a civil war like this, but NSG, I need help in this argument!

Also, PLEASE DON'T BRING POLITICAL BS INTO THIS SUCH AS, "Why is California in the CSA? blah blah. Keep this tactical and a clean debate.

Ok, why is California in the CSA?

[Maurepas]

Have to go with the South on this one...I dont see the ICBM's being used, even in this scenario, MAD would make it rather pointless, and I dont see any politician suggesting their use...

Therefore, with California, Texas, and Florida all on the same page, and with all the military hardware housed on that side of the line, the North would simply be overwhelmed in this version...

Considering its utter pointlessness however, Im not sure any of it could be argued seriously, however, in a realistic scenario...

[The Black Forrest]

Me and my friend are discussing this and his ignorance doesn't help, so I ask you, if the U.S. to be split like the map below, who would win?
Seeing that the south holds more Naval Ports however the North having more Army and Air force bases.


With Alaska going to the CSA and Hawaii to the to the USA.
don't worry about the cause, it just happened, I also wish to state that I don't believe the U.S. will fall into a civil war like this, but NSG, I need help in this argument!

Also, PLEASE DON'T BRING POLITICAL BS INTO THIS SUCH AS, "Why is California in the CSA? blah blah. Keep this tactical and a clean debate.

Ok, why is California in the CSA?

Indeed. California would not join the CSA. I would think the same of Nevada. Colorado probably would be CSA.....

[Maurepas]

Indeed. California would not join the CSA. I would think the same of Nevada. Colorado probably would be CSA.....

I agree, thats why the CSA can only win in this scenario, which, being an utterly unrealistic one, specifically for this reason, it becomes a meaningless debate...

With California and New York being on the same side, there is simply too much of a population difference...

Our best bet would be moving into the woods and swamps and going to guerrilla warfare, but, the necessary economic concessions inherent in that scenario would be too great a price to pay, imo...

[City of Norfolk]

One can't assume that everyone on the bases would just throw in their lot with where they're located,

Ultimately the question is resolved in terms of which side the military joins,

If the question is based on the hypothetical where the line is just drawn, then I would ultimately give it to the North since they'd have better access to materials over the North Atlantic,

Maybe China comes in for the South but they can mostly provide men as opposed to advanced machinery and food in sufficient numbers, nor could South America,

Over the long-term the North would likely win in my opinion,

I agree, when one joins the military, they swear an oath to Defend and Serve the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic

but, which nations would support whoever seceded to destroy the legitimate gov't?
Say the South secedes again, I would think Russia, Iran, and China, or any of the three would support the South in order to get IOU's and overthrow the government that constantly rivals and conflicting with them.

[BunnySaurus Bugsii]

*snip*

Considering its utter pointlessness however, Im not sure any of it could be argued seriously, however, in a realistic scenario...

Yeah, it's a role-play. You have to make a lot of assumptions.

But you could play it this way: one or other of the "sides" would suffer a rebellion against its leadership, by "the People" or by the military itself. It would probably be the side with the lesser chances as demonstrated by the opening hostilities, but it could be both "sides."

I'm not trying to spoil the fun of people who like listing military assets. Just can't take it seriously as something that would actually happen. Needs a lot of back-story.

[Maurepas]

One can't assume that everyone on the bases would just throw in their lot with where they're located,

Ultimately the question is resolved in terms of which side the military joins,

If the question is based on the hypothetical where the line is just drawn, then I would ultimately give it to the North since they'd have better access to materials over the North Atlantic,

Maybe China comes in for the South but they can mostly provide men as opposed to advanced machinery and food in sufficient numbers, nor could South America,

Over the long-term the North would likely win in my opinion,

I agree, when one joins the military, they swear an oath to Defend and Serve the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic

but, which nations would support whoever seceded to destroy the legitimate gov't?
Say the South secedes again, I would think Russia, Iran, and China, or any of the three would support the South in order to get IOU's and overthrow the government that constantly rivals and conflicting with them.

Im pretty sure Robert E. Lee swore a similar oath, Im not entirely sure the Military is full of people willing to subjugate their own friends and family, anymore than they are willing to automatically betray their country...

Not to mention, Id wager the EU and Canada would support the legitimate government, and can provide much higher quality materials, and transport them in greater numbers and quicker too, with the support of the bulk of the US Navy...

[City of Norfolk]

Based on critiques, I made a new hopefully more realistic balanced map-

[Thethunderdome]

North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, California, and Arizona give the CSA the edge provided the North doesn't start nuking them. The 3rd largest Air Force in the world is in Tucson, Arizona. Most of the military production is down here, as are military bases.

Edit: in the new map without CA I'd still give it to the south.

[Maurepas]

Based on critiques, I made a new hopefully more realistic balanced map-

North, almost without question...California is the main breaker here...By itself it contains 12% of the US population...

Combined with 27% in the next 6 states, it becomes an overwhelming scenario...

I expect we could wage a guerrilla war that would be unwinnable for the north, but, I dont really have much faith in how long we could pull that off, not to mention with the history involved, you can only count on certain segments of the South's population to actually fight along side it...

[Phenia]

South... not counting allies. 1st reason California and the other leftist states are a bunch of pussies who would try to talk their way out.

I'd join up for a chance to put some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash. I am not alone in this.

2 people in the south would join more readily

No they wouldn't.

3 people in the south have more guns

Do they have more than 2 arms per person? No? Then it doesn't matter.

4 If a nuke hit a big city in the north it would be more devastating (Manhattan and other states)

Now that's true. We have more cities. More manufacturing centers. More money. But if we're talking nukes, then neither side wins.

[Maurepas]

South... not counting allies. 1st reason California and the other leftist states are a bunch of pussies who would try to talk their way out.

I'd join up for a chance to put some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash. I am not alone in this.

You will be if you put it that way..Id join up to put bullets in people that talk about us that way, that is taking it too far, and quite hypocritical at that...

and, as living proof, explicitly untrue....

[Phenia]

South... not counting allies. 1st reason California and the other leftist states are a bunch of pussies who would try to talk their way out.

I'd join up for a chance to put some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash. I am not alone in this.

You will be if you put it that way..Id join up to put bullets in people that talk about us that way, that is taking it too far, and quite hypocritical at that...

and, as living proof, explicitly untrue....

How are you living proof of that being untrue? You're not a member of the CSA and you haven't seceded. This is a hypothetical situation we're talking about here.

And in this situation, the southern states have all decided to commit High Treason. No WAY am I letting that slide. And if, again this is a hypothetical situation, they did, then they would be hypocritical (in that they rapidly changed their tune from the Bush-era patriotism, to turning against the USA), Bible-thumping (I don't see how this is controversial), pro-slavery (Come on! The CSA! You might as well revive the Third Reich and then pretend it's not pro-genocide anymore), trash (that goes along with the high treason part).

And bear in mind I am responding a point calling all "leftist states a bunch of pussies."

[Maurepas]

How are you living proof of that being untrue? You're not a member of the CSA and you haven't seceded. This is a hypothetical situation we're talking about here.

And in this situation, the southern states have all decided to commit High Treason. No WAY am I letting that slide. And if, again this is a hypothetical situation, they did, then they would be hypocritical (in that they rapidly changed their tune from the Bush-era patriotism, to turning against the USA), Bible-thumping (I don't see how this is controversial), pro-slavery (Come on! The CSA! You might as well revive the Third Reich and then pretend it's not pro-genocide anymore), trash (that goes along with the high treason part).

And bear in mind I am responding a point calling all "leftist states a bunch of pussies."

Im not supporting what he said, but to sink to that level, is quite hypocritical of you, which you are intending to say about us, I dont care about any hypothetical scenarios, you dont say that about an entire group of people...

As a resident, born and raised in that group of people, I would be living proof, that your entire statement, save perhaps the parts about the hypothetical secession is untrue...and if thats how the US would, and likely do anyway, view us, then I would support us leaving it, fuck them...

[Parthenon]

I'd join up for a chance to put some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash. I am not alone in this.

Since we are dealing with "hypotheticals" I will bet that "hypothetically" you and the people of a similar mindset will be too damn yellow to go through with those words and probably have never even lifted a gun while the "bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash" have been doing it their whole life and would easily, and happily for that matter, shoot cowards like your "hypothetical" persona in the back while you are hightailing your ass away from the battlefield.

[Phenia]

I'd join up for a chance to put some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash. I am not alone in this.

Since we are dealing with "hypotheticals" I will bet that "hypothetically" you and the people of a similar mindset will be too damn yellow

Oh no! Internet tough guy calls me yeller!

No one calls me yeller!

to go through with those words and probably have never even lifted a gun while the "bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash" have been doing it their whole life and would easily, and happily for that matter, shoot cowards like your "hypothetical" persona in the back while you are hightailing your ass away from the battlefield.

You might want to wipe the bodily fluid from your keyboard.

And your mouth.

You know, hypothetically.

[Phenia]

I dont care about any hypothetical scenarios

Oh good. So we don't have to hear more about your opinion on this topic then. Since you don't care and all.

As a resident, born and raised in that group of people, I would be living proof, that your entire statement, save perhaps the parts about the hypothetical secession is untrue...and if thats how the US would, and likely do anyway, view us, then I would support us leaving it, fuck them...

So because of what *I* say on *one* post on an internet forum, you're changing your mind and would support secession.

So much for that part about me being wrong about southern faux-patriotism.

The minute you get offended, you're advocating treason. I suppose the minute you see a black man you don't like, you're going to change your mind about slavery too? 'Oh no, that black man offended me, fuck human rights!'

[Heinleinites]

Since we are dealing with "hypotheticals" I will bet that "hypothetically" you and the people of a similar mindset will be too damn yellow to go through with those words and probably have never even lifted a gun while the "bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash" have been doing it their whole life and would easily, and happily for that matter, shoot cowards like your "hypothetical" persona in the back while you are hightailing your ass away from the battlefield.

I don't know that I could hypothetically bring myself to shoot someone in the back while they were running away from a hypothetical battlefield. Something about it sticks in my craw.

As far as the scenario goes, I think it's fairly flawed. If the U.S. were to balkanize, I think splitting it into just two pieces is optimistic at best. And despite my Confederate flag displaying belief that "the South shall rise again" I also don't think that a realistic scenario would divide the country along a North/South, U.S.A/C.S.A axis. A good book on the possible balkanization of the U.S. is The Nine Nations of N. America. It's about twenty years old, but the descriptions of the Nine Nations, and the conclusions the author reaches are, I think, still vaild.

[Maurepas]

I dont care about any hypothetical scenarios

Oh good. So we don't have to hear more about your opinion on this topic then. Since you don't care and all.

As a resident, born and raised in that group of people, I would be living proof, that your entire statement, save perhaps the parts about the hypothetical secession is untrue...and if thats how the US would, and likely do anyway, view us, then I would support us leaving it, fuck them...

So because of what *I* say on *one* post one an internet forum, you're changing your mind and would support secession.

So much for that part about me being wrong about southern faux-patriotism.

The minute you get offended, you're advocating treason. I suppose the minute you see a black man you don't like, you're going to change your mind about slavery too? 'Oh no, that black man offended me, fuck human rights!'

Way to p

I didnt say I didnt care per se, I meant in the context of tossing flames, hypotheticals are not applicable...

And I never had any of the "faux-patriotism" you speak of, I hated Bush with the rest of you, Im one of those "liberals" he was talking about, which, considering Im one of those people, as aforementioned, your entire statement is therefore false...

Now, You can accuse me of hating blacks if you wish, if petty insults and flames are your game, fine, thats your problem, it doesnt make it true however...

Not to mention, I never changed my position, I never stated that I supported one side or the other...If my State seceded, I would likely support it, for the simple fact that I will not subjugate my friends and family, take that "treason" for what you will...

[Ardchoille]

Bans ain't hypothetical. Cut this nonsense out. Maurepas and Phenia, have enough sense to step away from the keyboard for a while. I'll be reviewing what you've already said. Don't add to it.

[Parthenon]

Since we are dealing with "hypotheticals" I will bet that "hypothetically" you and the people of a similar mindset will be too damn yellow to go through with those words and probably have never even lifted a gun while the "bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash" have been doing it their whole life and would easily, and happily for that matter, shoot cowards like your "hypothetical" persona in the back while you are hightailing your ass away from the battlefield.

I don't know that I could hypothetically bring myself to shoot someone in the back while they were running away from a hypothetical battlefield. Something about it sticks in my craw.

If they show up to the "hypothetical" battlefield with guns drawn and the intention of "putting some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash." they should "hypothetically" be leaving the battlefield in an oak box in my opinion. If they managed to "hypothetically" save themselves from the box they deserve to be locked up in a prison with similar conditions to Andersonville.

[United States of PA]

Since we are dealing with "hypotheticals" I will bet that "hypothetically" you and the people of a similar mindset will be too damn yellow to go through with those words and probably have never even lifted a gun while the "bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash" have been doing it their whole life and would easily, and happily for that matter, shoot cowards like your "hypothetical" persona in the back while you are hightailing your ass away from the battlefield.

I don't know that I could hypothetically bring myself to shoot someone in the back while they were running away from a hypothetical battlefield. Something about it sticks in my craw.

If they show up to the "hypothetical" battlefield with guns drawn and the intention of "putting some bullets into a bunch of Bible-thumping hypocritical anti-American traitorous shit-eating uneducated secessionist pro-slavery trash." they should "hypothetically" be leaving the battlefield in an oak box in my opinion. If they managed to "hypothetically" save themselves from the box they deserve to be locked up in a prison with similar conditions to Andersonville.

Very true


And i was thinking, a South Against North is very unlikely to happen again, what would be more likely is 1 Idea against another, my friend and i once said if Another American Civil War Happened it would probably be Democrats against Republicans, or something similar, in which we both agreed The Republicans would win, but im getting off topic now.

[Post-Unity Terra]

I think it's funny people are making the 'southerners like guns durhur' point. People mdade the same point in the actual US Civil War and the South still got stomped.

[Parthenon]

I think it's funny people are making the 'southerners like guns durhur' point. People mdade the same point in the actual US Civil War and the South still got stomped.

No, that point was never made in the original civil war. The north had its fair share of trappers/hunters and had an equal interest in firearm owenership at the time in history. The north's advantage was industrialization and infrastructure, things which the modern day south certainly has developed to a comparable level.