Another American Civil War

[Frasas]

Alright, so if the CSA were to return, would they use the old flag? Or would they institute a new one?

New one because the old one had the original number of succeeded states on it and that is more based upon this map now.

[Autumn Wind]

The location of most military facilities wouldn't really amount to much, in terms of overall results of the conflict. Modern US regular military units are so heavily integrated that there would undoubtably be mass rioting/infighting all over the barracks and motor pools that would leave most of the important equipment heavily damaged. You'd need to arrest all of the opposite side's troops before any arms rooms could be raided, which would require some sort of "Order 66" to pull off. Given the integrated nature of the post chains of command that would be impractical.

I think mostly it would come down to individually state-loyal National Guard units being supported by large numbers of milita forces, as larger conventional military formations would be impossible to maintain.

What did they say about the F-22? Its production facilities were spread out across like 44 states? Those things would be worthless in a week when you ran out of spare parts for 'em. Most other high tech vehicles would be in the same boat.

Mass mobilization of poorly/untrained militias and the collapse of industry due to resulting disruption of interstate commerce and banking would leave the country in far less of a second "Civil War" such as the OP suggests and more of an "America pulls a Somalia" type conflict

Hell, without interstate commerce petrochemical fertilizers wouldn't be delivered, resulting in mass crop failures- The US would even have Somalia's mass starvation.


So who would win? Based on Somalia's example the conflict would go on for indefinately.

[City of Norfolk]

@ Frasas, I was thinking that, but the flag of old holds a more significant meaning, there's only 13 stars, but what the flag stands for is what's important, in my opinion, I think they would bring back the stars and bars or the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

@ Autumn Wind, I would have to agree, the mass integration of the armed forces would make an organized war almost impossible.

[Frasas]

They should if a war were to take place. The Army of Northern Virginia was one of the best armies in world history at fighting in defensive warfare. Gen.Longstreet created the ideas of trenchs, trench warfare, and guerilla warfare.

[Tekania]

And just as in the Cold War ... the subs get the last word. Who gets the subs, hmm?

This is an easy answer... MOST of the Fast Attack subs (which can carry Tactical Nukes) are located in either Pearl, San Diego, or Norfolk... with a FEW in Connecticut... Ballistic Missile Subs are only located in two places, Georgia and Washington State... On the West Coast, the FA's are divided pretty evenly between Pearl and San Diego.... On the East Coast, 90% of the FA's are in Norfolk... Boomers are split evenly between GA and WA...

EDIT: Note, this gives the North Eastern US a serious tactical deficiency on the Naval front... Especially considering they have just about NIL in the way of a Surface combat force, and only a handfull of submarines... Tactically, the South-Easter region has enough Naval power to blockade the Atlantic, and all Northern-Eastern shipping ports (Including the St-Lawrence Sea-way) which means they could pretty much cut all trade to the North-East [except from Canada]... North-East would be just as effectively land-locked as the Central states...

[Katganistan]

Why in reason's name do people feel the need to refight a war that was lost 144 years ago?

[No Names Left Damn It]

Why in reason's name do people feel the need to refight a war that was lost 144 years ago?

Geographical dickwaving?

[Farnhamia]

Why in reason's name do people feel the need to refight a war that was lost 144 years ago?

Geographical dickwaving?

This.

*snip of where the subs are*

EDIT: Note, this gives the North Eastern US a serious tactical deficiency on the Naval front... Especially considering they have just about NIL in the way of a Surface combat force, and only a handfull of submarines... Tactically, the South-Easter region has enough Naval power to blockade the Atlantic, and all Northern-Eastern shipping ports (Including the St-Lawrence Sea-way) which means they could pretty much cut all trade to the North-East [except from Canada]... North-East would be just as effectively land-locked as the Central states...

Assuming, of course, that every single Navy unit based in the South sides with the South. That's questionable. However, since the OP did say the whys and wherefores of the war are unimportant, I suppose we should let this go.

[Maurepas]

Why in reason's name do people feel the need to refight a war that was lost 144 years ago?

Because, in the popular imagination, there is a refighting of it around every corner...

[Newer Burmecia]

Because, in the popular imagination, there is a refighting of it around every corner...

Somehow my imagination conjured up images of rather elderly Confederate Army veterans lurking in dark alleyways waiting for the perfect opportunuty to strike. Perhaps I should comission a novel.

[Wanderjar]

Me and my friend are discussing this and his ignorance doesn't help, so I ask you, if the U.S. to be split like the map below, who would win?
Seeing that the south holds more Naval Ports however the North having more Army and Air force bases.


With Alaska going to the CSA and Hawaii to the to the USA.
don't worry about the cause, it just happened, I also wish to state that I don't believe the U.S. will fall into a civil war like this, but NSG, I need help in this argument!

Also, PLEASE DON'T BRING POLITICAL BS INTO THIS SUCH AS, "Why is California in the CSA? blah blah. Keep this tactical and a clean debate.

EDIT:
Updated Map.

The Army would simply return north and most of the Air Force would too. The South would start off with only National Guard units and militias. In short, the South would sadly get trounced relatively quickly.

[Maurepas]

Because, in the popular imagination, there is a refighting of it around every corner...

Somehow my imagination conjured up images of rather elderly Confederate Army veterans lurking in dark alleyways waiting for the perfect opportunuty to strike. Perhaps I should comission a novel.

lol, you should...

You could be the next Max Barry! and dont forget who supplied you with inspiration of course, I only want a mention on the thanx page,

[Tekania]

Assuming, of course, that every single Navy unit based in the South sides with the South. That's questionable. However, since the OP did say the whys and wherefores of the war are unimportant, I suppose we should let this go.

Yep, but this is all assumption... And it's more than likely that there would be alot of military in-fighting before any placement would be concerned... Which would be very hard to predict in the modern navy... It would come down to a per ship basis... But it's pretty certain that few ships would leave whatever ports they are in... And would be a matter of how many manage to survive/avoid being scuttled by crew/command in the initial openings when lines are still being drawn... And then also, a general regional makeup of the crew (not that that helps, because it's not guranteed that everyone from a particular state would side with that state in a conflict)... When I was serving aboard a sub, a majority of the crew/officers were either from the South-Eastern US or West-Coast... So I sub like that could go either way... South or West...

[Greater Americania]

It honestly depends. The South would fare much better this time around as there has been industrialization. Not to mention that alot of the US Army's bases as well as ammunition plants are in the South which gives the South decent military resources. They'd be much more capable of fielding a half-decent army than they were 150 years ago with the agricultural economy.

[Tekania]

Also, in City of Norfolk's map... I do not think the South has "more naval ports"... It Certainly has more on the Atlantic/Gulf coast than the Northern Atlantic Coast... But the entirety of the West Coast is dominated by "North" controlled Naval Ports... Alaska might be on the "CSA" side in the map, but it wouldn't be for long... Considering it's landlocked by Canada on one side (who would either be Neutral or side with the USA), and has nill in the way of Pacific Naval forces, and would be subject to the USA Naval domination of the Pacific... With it's small population as well, it would be an easy invasion target (which it would be, due to the resources located there)... So it would probably be the first state to fall to the USA... Open up more access to resources to the USA, which could then concentrate more forces into the Atlantic... Once Alaska is out of the picuture... US Pacific forces can be moved through Panama, and ballance the force in the Atlantic... Making some pretty heavy naval combat (with no clear winner)...

[Maurepas]

Also, in City of Norfolk's map... I do not think the South has "more naval ports"... It Certainly has more on the Atlantic/Gulf coast than the Northern Atlantic Coast... But the entirety of the West Coast is dominated by "North" controlled Naval Ports... Alaska might be on the "CSA" side in the map, but it wouldn't be for long... Considering it's landlocked by Canada on one side (who would either be Neutral or side with the USA), and has nill in the way of Pacific Naval forces, and would be subject to the USA Naval domination of the Pacific... With it's small population as well, it would be an easy invasion target (which it would be, due to the resources located there)... So it would probably be the first state to fall to the USA... Open up more access to resources to the USA, which could then concentrate more forces into the Atlantic... Once Alaska is out of the picuture... US Pacific forces can be moved through Panama, and ballance the force in the Atlantic... Making some pretty heavy naval combat (with no clear winner)...

Yeah, I was actually thinking my first move from the "CSA"'s side would be to obtain a Pacific port somehow, either through California or Mexico...

and, if that was successful, I had the slightly crazier thought, due to us having the shipbuilding yards about 20 minutes from here, of having Naval vessels dismantled and transported overland to be reassembled at the port, all Roman style...

Utterly implausible but I think in fantastic scenarios like that,

[Kaesekartoffeln]

The USA would have much of its oil supply cut off, as most of our own is in Alaska or Texas, or comes in through ports in the Gulf of Mexico. Also, the strategic petroleum reserve is in the south.

[The Black Forrest]

The revamped CSA would win, hands down.

Why?

Because there is a much larger percentage of "Give peace a chance", "Peace at any price" and "War is never the answer" folk living in New England, New York, Washington State and California than in the entire South combined.

Heh.

There are probably more guns in LA and New York city then the whole South combined.

[The Black Forrest]

Why in reason's name do people feel the need to refight a war that was lost 144 years ago?

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!

[BunnySaurus Bugsii]

The map in the OP at that time was the one linked to in Wilgrove's post. At the time of Phenia's reply, it was the later version of the map.

The "new" CSA is quite conceivably real posters living in those states. The "old" CSA is more like a historical map, with the people who lived there long since dead.

The OP changing the scenario in the OP, without any note there that it had changed, was partly responsible for the conflict which ensued at about the same time.

I suggest to City of Norfolk that changing the scenario part-way through was a bad idea.

He did make a note. It's also in the opening post that it changed. Not Norfolk's fault some people just aren't paying attention.

that maybe be my fault, but the original debate between myself and my friend was, "what if the U.S. was split right down the middle? Who would win?" And after many critiques of the map, I decided to give Nevada and California to the U.S. seeing that more realistic.

Hey, I didn't even say it was "your fault."

I'm a flowers-and-unicorns kind of poster, I repeat. I like to read good debate, but when posters I'm familiar with get angry with each other, and try to hurt each other's feelings, I feel a kind of pain.

It wasn't your fault. Phenia made it clear in the Moderation thread that the "old" south is a viable target in his eyes, and perhaps he's right. Doesn't excuse the name-calling of course. But it's a mitigating factor, because I don't think Phenia was attacking the "new" south of your scenario. A south made of present-day states, with real people living in them.

There is a degree of misunderstanding in there, I'd say.

leave it a week or two, then try the "East/West" USA scenario. Could be fun

[BunnySaurus Bugsii]

Why in reason's name do people feel the need to refight a war that was lost 144 years ago?

THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!

Just ask India.

Their subcontinent rose so hard, it created the Himalayas.

[BunnySaurus Bugsii]

Because, in the popular imagination, there is a refighting of it around every corner...

Somehow my imagination conjured up images of rather elderly Confederate Army veterans lurking in dark alleyways waiting for the perfect opportunuty to strike. Perhaps I should comission a novel.

lol, you should...

You could be the next Max Barry! and dont forget who supplied you with inspiration of course, I only want a mention on the thanx page,

Ouch!

Max Barry is writing for me now?

[Post-Unity Terra]

The USA would have much of its oil supply cut off, as most of our own is in Alaska or Texas, or comes in through ports in the Gulf of Mexico. Also, the strategic petroleum reserve is in the south.

No money in the south, no oil in the north. LET'S ROCK.

[City of Norfolk]

Hey, I didn't even say it was "your fault."

I'm a flowers-and-unicorns kind of poster, I repeat. I like to read good debate, but when posters I'm familiar with get angry with each other, and try to hurt each other's feelings, I feel a kind of pain.

It wasn't your fault. Phenia made it clear in the Moderation thread that the "old" south is a viable target in his eyes, and perhaps he's right. Doesn't excuse the name-calling of course. But it's a mitigating factor, because I don't think Phenia was attacking the "new" south of your scenario. A south made of present-day states, with real people living in them.

There is a degree of misunderstanding in there, I'd say.

leave it a week or two, then try the "East/West" USA scenario. Could be fun

Aye, I asked for a clean debate with reasonable arguments and possibilities, I kept a scenario out for political reasons and hopefully not get this thread locked, I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I just think this is an interesting topic.

[Maurepas]

Ouch!

Max Barry is writing for me now?

Max Barry is always writing for you, he writes for all of us!

We are all but figments of the great Max's imagination, everyone know that...

Although, Im not entirely sure he would wish to claim us anyway,