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Debt Ceiling To Be GOP "Leverage Moment"

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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:57 pm

Late Republican Rome wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:that's easy. the number of libertarians is basically a rounding error.


Sadly, truer than I wish it were. But give me a few hundred citizens, let me re-found the Roman Republic, leave us be, and we'll do just fine, Jack. We'll even get to skip that Kingdom stage.

Somewhere in Montana would be nice. Or even Alaska.


You do realize that the Roman Empire collapsed for a reason right?

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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:59 pm

Late Republican Rome wrote:I'm a libertarian, not a Republican. I think Bush's tax cuts were too mild and his spending cuts were negative something. Don't compare me to some other party. I don't mind roads, but I do mind paying for someone else's education. He has two eyes and two hands. He can teach himself to read, write, and cypher, if he has the motivation. The State would barely exist, if it were up to me. Propertied soldiers only, smallholders in general, like it was in ancient Rome. And voting based on economic status. That way, no one gets the idea to confiscate someone else's money through something like, oh, an income tax.

And, just for the record, I live in Arizona.


Yea, because fuck everyone as long as I got mine, so fuck the poor, fuck the blacks, the Hispanics, the Asian, the women, fuck everyone except for wealthy land owning WASP male.

Sorry, but a long time ago, we decided that power being held by a few elites was out of vogue, unfortunately, the Republicans seem to be bringing it back into vogue.

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Alien Space Bats
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Re: Debt Ceiling To Be GOP "Leverage Moment"

Postby Alien Space Bats » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:51 am

Wamitoria wrote:
Late Republican Rome wrote:I have a solution to the national debt, but it is drastic. Partition the country. Then the national debt becomes a non-existent debt of a non-existent Union. And then the lefties can have their damned social safety net and spend their own taxes on it instead of the average, hard-working, middle-class and upper-middle-class taxpayers' money. Oh, wait, they are only interesting in spending other people's money, and then complaining that Bush let some of them keep more of it instead of donating to the collective.

Sorry, but not interested in your idea of "sharing the wealth", comrade. :lol2: :clap:

Do I have to put on the goddamn blue uniform?

Yeah, I have a friend here in Michigan who likes to say, "Don't make us go down there and kick your asses again."

Wamitoria wrote:
Late Republican Rome wrote:Only if I get to put on the gray. :rofl:

Butternut, they wore butternut.

Has anyone told them that color is soooo gay?
Last edited by Alien Space Bats on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Provisional America
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Postby Provisional America » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:54 am

Wilgrove wrote:
Late Republican Rome wrote:
Sadly, truer than I wish it were. But give me a few hundred citizens, let me re-found the Roman Republic, leave us be, and we'll do just fine, Jack. We'll even get to skip that Kingdom stage.

Somewhere in Montana would be nice. Or even Alaska.


You do realize that the Roman Empire collapsed for a reason right?


That was the Empire, pal. Not the Republic, which only collapsed because ambitious politicians deliberately undermined it. Much like they have undermined the present one and brought it down even sooner. LRR is right that republican Rome, while not perfect, was the greatest civilization of its day and the average citizen was freer in his personal life in many respects than people are today.
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"Then why do you alter the Law to suit yourselves? In a thousand ways, you have perverted not only Moses, but the Nazarene, and you have done so ever since the blasphemous Paul of Tarsus said, 'Christ is the end of the Law.' You are neither Hebrew nor Galilean, but opportunists!" - Julian by the late, great Gore Vidal

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Provisional America
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Postby Provisional America » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:58 am

Wilgrove wrote:
Late Republican Rome wrote:I'm a libertarian, not a Republican. I think Bush's tax cuts were too mild and his spending cuts were negative something. Don't compare me to some other party. I don't mind roads, but I do mind paying for someone else's education. He has two eyes and two hands. He can teach himself to read, write, and cypher, if he has the motivation. The State would barely exist, if it were up to me. Propertied soldiers only, smallholders in general, like it was in ancient Rome. And voting based on economic status. That way, no one gets the idea to confiscate someone else's money through something like, oh, an income tax.

And, just for the record, I live in Arizona.


Yea, because fuck everyone as long as I got mine, so fuck the poor, fuck the blacks, the Hispanics, the Asian, the women, fuck everyone except for wealthy land owning WASP male.

Sorry, but a long time ago, we decided that power being held by a few elites was out of vogue, unfortunately, the Republicans seem to be bringing it back into vogue.


Can't speak for LRR, but most libertarians don't care what your race or sex is. If you created the wealth, it is yours to keep. And practically everyone could own land in such a free society based upon merit and opportunity, instead of a false "social" justice imposed by the State, which only enslaves everyone, bankrupts the country, and makes everyone equally poor.

Besides, if us Libertarians are such undesirable and selfish people, why do you want us to stay? You can be rid of us, without using your damned gulags, commissar.

As Rev. Steve Wyatt noted, "The Civil War didn't free the slaves. It just expanded the plantation."
Last edited by Provisional America on Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pro-gun, pro-life, pro-gay, Constitutional libertarian Republican. No, that doesn't make me anti-safety, anti-woman, anti-family, or racist. It just means that I stand for the unalienable rights of Man under Natural Law.

"Then why do you alter the Law to suit yourselves? In a thousand ways, you have perverted not only Moses, but the Nazarene, and you have done so ever since the blasphemous Paul of Tarsus said, 'Christ is the end of the Law.' You are neither Hebrew nor Galilean, but opportunists!" - Julian by the late, great Gore Vidal

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:04 am

greed and death wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:oh i dont care if every single teaparty republican votes against it as long as the sane republicans bring it up for a vote and vote for it.

It shall be tabled unless as an amendment to the debt ceiling raising bill, national right to work legislation and 2,000 dollar tax is applied to each abortion.

which the teapartiers would TOTALLY do. they are idiots who were elected to be extreme.

the rest of congress isnt willing to destroy the country over this. that includes the sane republicans like john boehner (not insane, just stupid). why pretend that he would let the country be destroyed if he cant get his way?
whatever

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:08 am

Late Republican Rome wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:that's easy. the number of libertarians is basically a rounding error.


Sadly, truer than I wish it were. But give me a few hundred citizens, let me re-found the Roman Republic, leave us be, and we'll do just fine, Jack. We'll even get to skip that Kingdom stage.

Somewhere in Montana would be nice. Or even Alaska.

ow ow ow my eyes! it hurts when i roll them that hard.

won't your junk freeze off in alaska when you wear togas?
whatever

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The Deleted Chris
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Postby The Deleted Chris » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:09 am

$38 billion qualifies as worthwhile spending cuts?

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You-Gi-Owe
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Postby You-Gi-Owe » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:24 am

Wamitoria wrote:
WASHINGTON -- House Republicans will demand major concessions before agreeing to raise the nation's debt ceiling, Majority Leader Eric Cantor (Va.) said on Sunday, setting the stage for another showdown over spending.

Cantor said on "Fox News Sunday" that the House GOP was emboldened by the funding deal announced on Friday, in which the Obama White House and Senate Democrats agreed to roughly $38 billion in spending cuts. Lengthy negotiations over that deal nearly left the federal government unfunded and forced to shut down, but the stakes may be even higher for the debt ceiling, which must be raised to prevent the United States from defaulting on its loans.

In exchange for raising the debt limit -- long a routine move allowing the Treasury Department to borrow more money -- House Republicans will demand further concessions to shrink the government, Cantor said.

"There comes at times leverage moments, a time when the president will capitulate to what the American people want right now," he said. "They don't want to raise taxes, they don't want borrowing to continue out of control."

The White House, meanwhile, its preparing its own long-term plan to reduce the deficit, which will be unveiled later this week, adviser David Plouffe said on "Fox News Sunday." President Barack Obama will address the matter in a speech on Wednesday, White House Communications Director Dan Pfeiffer announced on Twitter Sunday morning.

While the White House and House Republicans agree that the deficit should be reduced, their respective strategies vary widely. The House GOP plan, which was unveiled by Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) last week, would cut taxes and make major entitlement changes. Many of the cuts in the Ryan proposal would weigh most heavily on low-income Americans and senior citizens, including the replacement of Medicare with a voucher-like program forcing seniors to use government money to pay for private health insurance.

Obama did not address entitlements in his 2012 budget, which was unveiled earlier this year, but the president will request some changes to Medicare in the plan to be released this week, Plouffe said.
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"My hope is it will be clear ... that we can achieve deficit reduction," Plouffe said. "We don't disagree that we can't continue on this fiscal path."

Plouffe urged Republicans not to hold up the debt ceiling vote, which Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has said must be passed before May 16. Obama himself voted against raising the debt limit when he was in the Senate -- a vote he now regrets, Plouffe said.

The White House is almost certain to face a similar battle over the debt ceiling as it did over government funding, however, as Republicans gear up to demand more cuts.

Plouffe said the negotiations over a spending deal, which was reached at the eleventh hour on Friday, showed that Obama will protect programs that are a priority, such as education and medical research. He denied that the deal showed the president, who has upped his rhetorical focus on deficit reduction in the wake of the compromise, was being pushed into cuts by Republicans.

"You can't look at any cuts as we're embracing the Republican orthodoxy," Plouffe said. "The president believes we need to reduce the deficit and cut spending, it's how you do it."

Cantor, however, said the White House and Senate Democrats "were dragged kicking and screaming to the table to cut spending."

The majority leader said that process may repeat itself in the coming debate over raising the debt ceiling, when Republicans plan to demand spending caps, entitlement reform or budget process reform in exchange for further federal borrowing.

"This spending deal that was cut this week was only the beginning," he said. "This was only the first bite of the apple. We've been saying that all along."


Tl;dr: The Republicans in the house plan to use the debt ceiling and the threat of a double-dip recession to push their agenda.

I don't like where American politics are heading.

Have we really come to this? I mean, it's already bad enough that the GOP threatened to shut down the government if they didn't get what they wanted, but now, they are threatening to wreck the economy? What are your views on the situation?

You don't like where American politics are heading? I haven't been a big fan of where they've been, like in a constant state of denial of common sense. Keynesian economics? What a joke! Laws that drive public sector businesses out of business, which kills the funding of public services, are insane.

Be logical. Unless you want to steal from your fellow human, you have to live within your means. Unless a government wishes to engage in a war of conquest, it has to live within it's means. If that means dragging the idealists (and/or the corrupt users of the liberal populace), kicking and screaming to look at the bank books, so be it.

If you have to threaten their favorite things to get them to the table, then that's fine, too.
Last edited by You-Gi-Owe on Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wamitoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:48 am

You-Gi-Owe wrote:
Wamitoria wrote:
Tl;dr: The Republicans in the house plan to use the debt ceiling and the threat of a double-dip recession to push their agenda.

I don't like where American politics are heading.

Have we really come to this? I mean, it's already bad enough that the GOP threatened to shut down the government if they didn't get what they wanted, but now, they are threatening to wreck the economy? What are your views on the situation?

You don't like where American politics are heading? I haven't been a big fan of where they've been, like in a constant state of denial of common sense. Keynesian economics? What a joke! Laws that drive public sector businesses out of business, which kills the funding of public services, are insane.

Be logical. Unless you want to steal from your fellow human, you have to live within your means. Unless a government wishes to engage in a war of conquest, it has to live within it's means. If that means dragging the idealists (and/or the corrupt users of the liberal populace), kicking and screaming to look at the bank books, so be it.

If you have to threaten their favorite things to get them to the table, then that's fine, too.

Threatening to nuke the world economy is not the best way to go about getting what you want.
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Alien Space Bats
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Re: Debt Ceiling To Be GOP "Leverage Moment"

Postby Alien Space Bats » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:58 am

See, this is why we need to colonize the Solar System: So that all of the people who want to go off an live by themselves have a frontier to enjoy.

Besides, I figure that, after a dozen years living in a company arcology on Mars and paying the local air bill (not a tax, but a fee!), they might begin to reconsider their outlook on life...
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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:01 am

Alien Space Bats wrote:See, this is why we need to colonize the Solar System: So that all of the people who want to go off an live by themselves have a frontier to enjoy.

Besides, I figure that, after a dozen years living in a company arcology on Mars and paying the local air bill (not a tax, but a fee!), they might begin to reconsider their outlook on life...

If you liberals want to go to mars have fun with that, we still are not raising the debt ceiling. Also we will give a tax break to the corporation that charges you for air so their CEO can afford to take our congressmen on vacations to mars to discuss forcing convicts to move there with you.
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Postby Free Soviets » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:01 am

matt yglesias has some good thoughts on how to deal with this. basically shoot the hostage:
This isn’t a sudden “shutdown.” Nor is is true that we have to default on obligations to our bondholders. Rather, it means that government outlays are now limited by the quantity of inbound tax revenue. But for a while, the people administering the federal government (to wit Barack Obama and Timothy Geithner) will be able to selectively stiff people. So the right strategy is to start stiffing people Republicans care about. When bills to defense contractors come due, don’t pay them...Don’t make some farm payments. Stop sending Medicare reimbursements.
Last edited by Free Soviets on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Debt Ceiling To Be GOP "Leverage Moment"

Postby Alien Space Bats » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:07 am

greed and death wrote:If you liberals want to go to mars have fun with that, we still are not raising the debt ceiling. Also we will give a tax break to the corporation that charges you for air so their CEO can afford to take our congressmen on vacations to mars to discuss forcing convicts to move there with you.

Oh, I figure it will be all the AnLibs who flock off to Mars. That's really what AlLibs want: Frontier life is the only kind of existence in which the AnLib "ideal" is remotely viable, because it won't work here on Earth any more. Besides, I didn't say that those would be government-funded colonies, did I?

Interesting that you talk about convicts. I wonder if the AnLibs are planning on bringing back debtors' prisons?

Oh, and you will raise the debt ceiling. That, or you'll be replaced by people who will. If the GOP doesn't vote to increase the debt ceiling and ends up crashing the global economy as a result, I doubt that even FOX News can spin that reality into a political bonus for them ("We broke the world, but they made us do it! Waaaaaauuuugh!!!)

EDIT: Grrrr. I keep forgetting that you're not a Republican, G&D. Whatever...
Last edited by Alien Space Bats on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby F1-Insanity » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:09 am

Kalibarr wrote:I don't like how they're abusing the economic situation to appease their corporate masters.


bankers + insurers + democrats = bff's
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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:16 am

Free Soviets wrote:matt yglesias has some good thoughts on how to deal with this. basically shoot the hostage:
This isn’t a sudden “shutdown.” Nor is is true that we have to default on obligations to our bondholders. Rather, it means that government outlays are now limited by the quantity of inbound tax revenue. But for a while, the people administering the federal government (to wit Barack Obama and Timothy Geithner) will be able to selectively stiff people. So the right strategy is to start stiffing people Republicans care about. When bills to defense contractors come due, don’t pay them...Don’t make some farm payments. Stop sending Medicare reimbursements.

Defense contractors so the GOP can say Obama hates the soldiers? Or the medicare payments so the GOP can say Obama hates the old ? Obama hath not the spine he will screw over exactly who the GOP tells him to screw over, namely the poor and minorities.
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Postby Provisional America » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:17 am

F1-Insanity wrote:
Kalibarr wrote:I don't like how they're abusing the economic situation to appease their corporate masters.


bankers + insurers + democrats = bff's


Indeed, the parties share the guilt. The major parties that is. It's best to vote Libertarian.
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"Then why do you alter the Law to suit yourselves? In a thousand ways, you have perverted not only Moses, but the Nazarene, and you have done so ever since the blasphemous Paul of Tarsus said, 'Christ is the end of the Law.' You are neither Hebrew nor Galilean, but opportunists!" - Julian by the late, great Gore Vidal

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Re: Debt Ceiling To Be GOP "Leverage Moment"

Postby Alien Space Bats » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:22 am

Provisional America wrote:Indeed, the parties share the guilt. The major parties that is. It's best to vote Libertarian.

Why accept watered-down madness when you can suck it down neat?
"These states are just saying 'Yes, I used to beat my girlfriend, but I haven't since the restraining order, so we don't need it anymore.'" — Stephen Colbert, Comedian, on Shelby County v. Holder

"Do you see how policing blacks by the presumption of guilt and policing whites by the presumption of innocence is a self-reinforcing mechanism?" — Touré Neblett, MSNBC Commentator and Social Critic

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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:23 am

Alien Space Bats wrote:
Provisional America wrote:Indeed, the parties share the guilt. The major parties that is. It's best to vote Libertarian.

Why accept watered-down madness when you can suck it down neat?

Or go Tea Party and shoot it straight into your veins?
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Provisional America
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Postby Provisional America » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:29 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Alien Space Bats wrote:Why accept watered-down madness when you can suck it down neat?

Or go Tea Party and shoot it straight into your veins?


The Tea Party are inconsistent at best. Only the libertarian wing of it has any chance of saving this country.
Pro-gun, pro-life, pro-gay, Constitutional libertarian Republican. No, that doesn't make me anti-safety, anti-woman, anti-family, or racist. It just means that I stand for the unalienable rights of Man under Natural Law.

"Then why do you alter the Law to suit yourselves? In a thousand ways, you have perverted not only Moses, but the Nazarene, and you have done so ever since the blasphemous Paul of Tarsus said, 'Christ is the end of the Law.' You are neither Hebrew nor Galilean, but opportunists!" - Julian by the late, great Gore Vidal

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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:31 am

Free Soviets wrote:matt yglesias has some good thoughts on how to deal with this. basically shoot the hostage:
This isn’t a sudden “shutdown.” Nor is is true that we have to default on obligations to our bondholders. Rather, it means that government outlays are now limited by the quantity of inbound tax revenue. But for a while, the people administering the federal government (to wit Barack Obama and Timothy Geithner) will be able to selectively stiff people. So the right strategy is to start stiffing people Republicans care about. When bills to defense contractors come due, don’t pay them...Don’t make some farm payments. Stop sending Medicare reimbursements.


Once again, that would require balls on part of President Obama, something he doesn't have.

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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:33 am

Provisional America wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Or go Tea Party and shoot it straight into your veins?


The Tea Party are inconsistent at best. Only the libertarian wing of it has any chance of saving this country.

Which is why people are flocking to them in thousands, nay, tens of thousands.
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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:34 am

Provisional America wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Or go Tea Party and shoot it straight into your veins?


The Tea Party are inconsistent at best. Only the libertarian wing of it has any chance of saving this country.


Please the Teabaggers aren't even remotely Libertarian. They're Republican Neo-Con on steroids and right now they're full of 'roid rage.

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Postby Lord Tothe » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:37 am

How's this: no more deficits, cut spending across the board? Cut the military, end redundant departments, consolidate federal services, transfer all welfare and education programs to the state level, end federal foreign aid, end farm and industry subsidies, and generally act like we people do where we have budgets and compromises in our personal finance - AND DON'T TAX ME MORE FOR YOUR ASININE CHOICES! I didn't consent to these programs you want to fund to feather your own nests and guarantee your next election.
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Capitalizt

Postby Provisional America » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:39 am

Lord Tothe wrote:How's this: no more deficits, cut spending across the board? Cut the military, end redundant departments, consolidate federal services, transfer all welfare and education programs to the state level, end federal foreign aid, end farm and industry subsidies, and generally act like we people do where we have budgets and compromises in our personal finance - AND DON'T TAX ME MORE FOR YOUR ASININE CHOICES! I didn't consent to these programs you want to fund to feather your own nests and guarantee your next election.


You, sir, have what we in America call "common sense". 8) Just beware. The Left will crucify you for it or burn you at the stake for challenging their orthodoxy. Watch out for the Red Inquisition.
Last edited by Provisional America on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pro-gun, pro-life, pro-gay, Constitutional libertarian Republican. No, that doesn't make me anti-safety, anti-woman, anti-family, or racist. It just means that I stand for the unalienable rights of Man under Natural Law.

"Then why do you alter the Law to suit yourselves? In a thousand ways, you have perverted not only Moses, but the Nazarene, and you have done so ever since the blasphemous Paul of Tarsus said, 'Christ is the end of the Law.' You are neither Hebrew nor Galilean, but opportunists!" - Julian by the late, great Gore Vidal

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