Communism: Persuade Me

[Mongolian Khanate]

Tell me, how do you "persuade" the worker to work?

Not working is a crime against the state. You go to a gulag to work there. Your food ration is based on the amount of work you perform. In authoritarian hellholes that is.

Yay!

[Sibirsky]

Ever been so bored while sitting at home? That.

It's human nature to go out and do something.

Sure, I'll go out and trade my labor, or set-up my own business, or just get drunk with Sibirsky while listening to his jokes about the soviet era, because they make my day.

I'm not going to work to the fields because that's what the Gosplan asks me to do

You should talk to my dad and listen to his stories of Soviet life. It was nuts. And the people there were just as nutty.

Some of the things are more Russian than Soviet but just as crazy.

[Sibirsky]

Not working is a crime against the state. You go to a gulag to work there. Your food ration is based on the amount of work you perform. In authoritarian hellholes that is.

Yay!

Seriously, unemployment was illegal.

[Mongolian Khanate]

Not only for a "free" society, but also for an efficient one

What is "efficient" for a society?

The optimal organisation, that is which allows the greatest standard of living and fulfillment of preferences

[Mongolian Khanate]

Yay!

Seriously, unemployment was illegal.

Ah shit... I was thinking how a worker should have told the party official/KGB agent to go fuck himself over... But now that you're telling me that... back to working toward communism!

[Lacadaemon]

Dude, you cannot turn 7 decades of central planning into a capitalist powerhouse overnight, especially as the centrally planned economies were collapsing. It takes time. They were all also, massively corrupt and remain so, slowing their growth.

I feel bad for the ordinary Russian. They seem to go from one completely shit government system to another. (All of them more or less kleptocracy with different names).

It seems a great shame though that the loony left couldn't have let Russia try liberal democracy for a bit after 1917. But no, it just had to go full retard straight away.

[Sibirsky]

Dude, you cannot turn 7 decades of central planning into a capitalist powerhouse overnight, especially as the centrally planned economies were collapsing. It takes time. They were all also, massively corrupt and remain so, slowing their growth.

I feel bad for the ordinary Russian. They seem to go from one completely shit government system to another. (All of them more or less kleptocracy with different names).

It seems a great shame though that the loony left couldn't have let Russia try liberal democracy for a bit after 1917. But no, it just had to go full retard straight away.

Yep, pretty much.

[Mongolian Khanate]

Dude, you cannot turn 7 decades of central planning into a capitalist powerhouse overnight, especially as the centrally planned economies were collapsing. It takes time. They were all also, massively corrupt and remain so, slowing their growth.

I feel bad for the ordinary Russian. They seem to go from one completely shit government system to another. (All of them more or less kleptocracy with different names).

It seems a great shame though that the loony left couldn't have let Russia try liberal democracy for a bit after 1917. But no, it just had to go full retard straight away.

I want a like button

[Alexlantis]

Dude, you cannot turn 7 decades of central planning into a capitalist powerhouse overnight, especially as the centrally planned economies were collapsing. It takes time. They were all also, massively corrupt and remain so, slowing their growth.

I feel bad for the ordinary Russian. They seem to go from one completely shit government system to another. (All of them more or less kleptocracy with different names).

It seems a great shame though that the loony left couldn't have let Russia try liberal democracy for a bit after 1917. But no, it just had to go full retard straight away.

And as we all know, you never go full retard.

[Distruzio]

Not only for a "free" society, but also for an efficient one

What is "efficient" for a society?

Whatever the market dictates.

[The Merchant Republics]

People always claim that Communism doesn't work, but this is untrue. Fact is, it works very well, in communities like abbeys, convents, and kibbutzim, where idealistic people who believe in collectivism have gathered together and dedicated themselves to making it work. Even here in the United States, there have been commercially successful communes. Problem is, it doesn't work when imposed on societies of people who are generally individualistic and self-interested. I think this comprises the vast majority of mankind.
Some would say this is untrue, while others claim it only shows the need to raise the consciousness of the people, to make them ready to accept Communism. But I think human nature is pretty much unchangeable. The way to get people to do what you want isn't to scold or preach, but rather to incentivize the behavior you want.

Most if not all of these particular examples receive massive subsidies for their operation from outside capitalist economies, abbeys ran on (while being partially sustaining) tithes and charitable contributions from nearby communities. Kibbutzim are almost entirely funded by pro-zionist movements and produce fairly little on their own.

Nonetheless, it's plain and clear that motivated usually religious people have made very small communist-like societies that were at the very least capable of some internal level of self-sufficiency. This however does not in any way suggest that a large scale application of communism would have anywhere near as much success were the average person to have the temperament, motivation and needs of a monk. Such social engineering is of course flawed, I am not saying that man is inherently greedy or that he cannot be made to accept the communist world, I am agreeing with you that man is an individualistic and self-interested creature. However, I should endeavour to show that communism could easily appeal to a man who saw it as a way to improve his station, but all evidence up to this point in time suggest that such a life style does not raise the quality of life for the average man.

[Sibirsky]

I feel bad for the ordinary Russian. They seem to go from one completely shit government system to another. (All of them more or less kleptocracy with different names).

It seems a great shame though that the loony left couldn't have let Russia try liberal democracy for a bit after 1917. But no, it just had to go full retard straight away.

I want a like button

You have to like the free market. If there is demand, there is supply.

[Mongolian Khanate]

I want a like button

You have to like the free market. If there is demand, there is supply.

nice one

[Trotskyist Hashtag]

Merchant Republics,

In Africa, claiming you're a capitalist is still political suicide, even in the neo-liberal countries. And 70% of China's economy is still state-run but has obviously raised the standard of living for many people. How Euro-centric of you.

[Trotskyist Hashtag]

Also, I feel I should point out the obvious before this discussion veers too far into the happyland of capitalist candy canes.

China owns alot of the capitalist world's debt because it's state-based system, while corrupt (but corruption is everywhere), does ensure that the economic proceeds are reinvested into creating industries and developing underdeveloped areas rather than being sucked away by banks and gambled away in financial horse-races for the elite. State control is how China maintains its growth rate and its not going to go gung-ho American-style capitalist anytime soon for that reason, because development is tied to the existence of the Party and without it the economy will simply not exist.

[Trotskylvania]

As Bluth Corp has already stated, from a Marxian perspective, asking to be persuaded to the communist position is nonsensical. The whole point of the materialist conception of history is that, like it or not, it's going to happen. No economic epoch can last forever.

This would be the equivalent of a man living on the tail end of the feudal age in Europe, proudly standing on a soapbox in a village square and asking people to persuade him that this funny idea of capital accumulation, markets of exchange for goods and the like was a good idea.

I think we can all agree that regardless of anyone's intentions, capitalism happened. If there is to be a genuine socialist future, it will happen in much the same way.

[The Moet]

Definition: com-mu-nism [kom-yuh-niz-uhm]: All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

[Mongolian Khanate]

Also, I feel I should point out the obvious before this discussion veers too far into the happyland of capitalist candy canes.

China owns the capitalist world's debt because it's state-based system, while corrupt (but corruption is everywhere), does ensure that the economic proceeds are reinvested into creating industries and developing underdeveloped areas rather than being sucked away by banks and gambled away in financial horse-races for the elite. State control is how China maintains its growth rate and its not going to go gung-ho American-style capitalist anytime soon for that reason, because development is tied to the existence of the Party and without it the economy will simply not exist.

You do know that buying U.S. bonds is playing the "finance horse-race" game, and that is what's keeping the chinese economy growing by allowing the US to dig deeper in it's trade balance deficit? Current chinese growth is tied to american spending, not to the communist party.

I'll add that the chinese economy survived the civil war, japanese imperialism and other western imperialisms. It will also outlast the Chinese Communist Party.

[Norstal]

Also, I feel I should point out the obvious before this discussion veers too far into the happyland of capitalist candy canes.

China owns the capitalist world's debt because it's state-based system, while corrupt (but corruption is everywhere), does ensure that the economic proceeds are reinvested into creating industries and developing underdeveloped areas rather than being sucked away by banks and gambled away in financial horse-races for the elite. State control is how China maintains its growth rate and its not going to go gung-ho American-style capitalist anytime soon for that reason, because development is tied to the existence of the Party and without it the economy will simply not exist.

They're so smart, they made one of the largest mall in the world and made it inaccessible.

And of course, if you ever strolled to the environmentally fucked part of China:

Oh but of course, it's all for the economy. At least the U.S does have the EPA, which does its job well.

[Lerro]

Also, I feel I should point out the obvious before this discussion veers too far into the happyland of capitalist candy canes.

China owns the capitalist world's debt because it's state-based system, while corrupt (but corruption is everywhere), does ensure that the economic proceeds are reinvested into creating industries and developing underdeveloped areas rather than being sucked away by banks and gambled away in financial horse-races for the elite. State control is how China maintains its growth rate and its not going to go gung-ho American-style capitalist anytime soon for that reason, because development is tied to the existence of the Party and without it the economy will simply not exist.

You do know that buying U.S. bonds is playing the "finance horse-race" game, and that is what's keeping the chinese economy growing by allowing the US to dig deeper in it's trade balance deficit? Current chinese growth is tied to american spending, not to the communist party.

I'll add that the chinese economy survived the civil war, japanese imperialism and other western imperialisms. It will also outlast the Chinese Communist Party.

The Chinese economy survived, but millions of Chinese citizens did not.

[Trotskyist Hashtag]

Also, I feel I should point out the obvious before this discussion veers too far into the happyland of capitalist candy canes.

China owns the capitalist world's debt because it's state-based system, while corrupt (but corruption is everywhere), does ensure that the economic proceeds are reinvested into creating industries and developing underdeveloped areas rather than being sucked away by banks and gambled away in financial horse-races for the elite. State control is how China maintains its growth rate and its not going to go gung-ho American-style capitalist anytime soon for that reason, because development is tied to the existence of the Party and without it the economy will simply not exist.

You do know that buying U.S. bonds is playing the "finance horse-race" game, and that is what's keeping the chinese economy growing by allowing the US to dig deeper in it's trade balance deficit? Current chinese growth is tied to american spending, not to the communist party.

I'll add that the chinese economy survived the civil war, japanese imperialism and other western imperialisms. It will also outlast the Chinese Communist Party.

I'm glad that's what you think.

Most of their growth in 2010 was tied to domestic spending. China's growth is fueled by China now. Not American spending or debt.

The Party is the economy in China. 70% of all industries are owned at least in part by the state, and are you going to tell me that they are all inefficient?

[Mongolian Khanate]

You do know that buying U.S. bonds is playing the "finance horse-race" game, and that is what's keeping the chinese economy growing by allowing the US to dig deeper in it's trade balance deficit? Current chinese growth is tied to american spending, not to the communist party.

I'll add that the chinese economy survived the civil war, japanese imperialism and other western imperialisms. It will also outlast the Chinese Communist Party.

The Chinese economy survived, but millions of Chinese citizens did not.

His statement is that without the Communist party, the chinese economy would not exist. My statement is that it is Grade A, Five-stars Class Bullshit

[Norstal]

The Chinese economy survived, but millions of Chinese citizens did not.

His statement is that without the Communist party, the chinese economy would not exist. My statement is that it is Grade A, Five-stars Class Bullshit

I always liked my bullshit served with slag made during the Great Leap Forward.

[The Merchant Republics]

Merchant Republics,

In Africa, claiming you're a capitalist is still political suicide, even in the neo-liberal countries. And 70% of China's economy is still state-run but has obviously raised the standard of living for many people. How Euro-centric of you.

Pardon? How Euro-Centric are you? I'm Canadian.

Anyways. I'd think there is an obvious correlation between the fact that in almost no African countries can you say "I'm a Capitalist" and be politically secure and the fact that Africa is generally a dirt-poor hellhole. For that matter it's pretty much political suicide everywhere in the world to call yourself a capitalist, left-wing drivel thought is quite mainstream, even though the average person is hardly a communist he eagerly agree that businesses ought to be chained by the state.

Better to remind yourself of exactly what the PRC has raised it's standard of living from, your statement would be more accurate if you phrased it like this, "Despite having only liberalized 30% of their economy, the standard of living in China has grown exponentially from where it began at 100% state-run.", look at Hong Kong if you want to see what a liberal China would have looked like.

However all of this seems to have nothing to do with what I wrote. Which was about the problems of selling real communism. It's easy to sell "To Each According To Need, From Each According to Ability", it's much harder to sell what that entails, i.e. your hard work subsidizing the lifestyles of the less productive and more needy. The whole process creates a perverse incentive to consume rather then produce. It relies on people's altruism and willingness to give, I don't deny humans to be capable of altruistic deeds, but the altruistic life-style save a few monks is not desirable for the average man.

I've found it funny that Marx could posit the world to be an entirely material one and yet simultaneously suggest that we should then devote ourselves to an immaterial good.

The ideal communist world seems to me to be an ant-farm, where people work for the good of all others and share willingly any goods they receive and most sickeningly that they not give not for the joy of giving but rather because they are mindless automatons to the good of the community, their lives unimportant and expendable. It is intensely material without all the distractions of the freed mind.

[Lacadaemon]

As Bluth Corp has already stated, from a Marxian perspective, asking to be persuaded to the communist position is nonsensical. The whole point of the materialist conception of history is that, like it or not, it's going to happen. No economic epoch can last forever.

This would be the equivalent of a man living on the tail end of the feudal age in Europe, proudly standing on a soapbox in a village square and asking people to persuade him that this funny idea of capital accumulation, markets of exchange for goods and the like was a good idea.

I think we can all agree that regardless of anyone's intentions, capitalism happened. If there is to be a genuine socialist future, it will happen in much the same way.

Yeah but these things just sort of happen. People start doing something different and it works better, so more people do it until it becomes the new black.

So while the current incarnation of capitalism won't last forever, I don't think you can plan out ahead of time what comes next.