Communism: Persuade Me

[Ovisterra]

Persuade you to like Communism? No. I refuse. Because honestly, I can tell you already don't like it that much, other people could actually benefit from my explanation elsewhere, and I have better things to do with my life then explain communism to someone who already knows about it.

That's it.


Either way, I personally think communism is a bit loopy.

[Valtieres]

You seem to assume what people want based on your hogwash consumerist mind. I know many people who couldn't possibly care on eating more than necessary. People in some countries eat more than necessary because of well-developed marketing for food that is the equivalent of dog shit with yummy paste.

Life is composed of more than eating.
You are using NS at the moment from (what I assume) a computer: is computer necessary? Is use of NS necessary? And I assume that you have a TV: is it necessary? I also assume that you have more than 2 pair of cloths: is that necessary? I could go on but I think that go the message across.

I use all of them because they are useful in a society that is information/consumerism based. Not only would I be socially ostracized for not wearing proper clothing, but I would be an ill-informed animal if I didn't keep up to date with the news of the day. Simple as that. What does this have to do with Essential Products and Consumerism? I'm complaining about that, not televisions and fridges......

Nice way to derail arguement.

[Sibirsky]

So you prefer to carry 100 kg of wood few hundred miles so that you can trade it for 400 of bricks rather than going to your local DIY shop and buying 400 bricks for $40?


Again, because you enjoy society's constructs which take money to fund and maintain? (not to mention, taxation is not a concept of pure capitalism: but personally I think that is going too far, too fast in current situation)

1. I am damn willing to lug the logs over 100 miles. It is called merit, of which many modern Capitalists and Imperialists don't seem to understand, but continously preach about. Staring at your computer monitor is far easier than engaging in REAL physical activity that allows yourself to feel proud over self-achievement, with a shared sense of pride towards the community that assisted in that respective accomplishment.

Computers allow us to be more productive. The service economy is equally important. We exchange our services, for physical labor. Some of us may do things on your own as hobbies. I build a a giant storage and tool shed in my father's backyard with my own hands. It was fun.

But I have no skills or knowhow to built a house. I'll leave that to the pros.

[Valtieres]

Never said it was a Capitalist concept. I do state that is a massively flawed system under the current conditions.

Money is convenient, but it is still a "Human" concept. We need to take a more naturalistic approach to exchange, preferentially bartering.

Bartering is grossly inefficient. Lets say I make chairs. So I have a bunch of chairs. To get something I want, lets say, apples, I have to find someone with apples, that also wants chairs. What if the only guy with apples does not want any chairs? I have to find someone else that does want chairs in exchange for whatever he or she has, and then hope whatever it is they give me is desirable to the apple guy. How would I transport these chairs? And why is this better than currency?

The value of currency fluctuates. Simple, basic objects and their rules applying to Physics never do.

[Conserative Morality]

The value of currency fluctuates. Simple, basic objects and their rules applying to Physics never do.

But the value of basic objects also fluctuates.

[The Southron Nation]

The value of currency fluctuates. Simple, basic objects and their rules applying to Physics never do.

What if I already have plenty of chairs.... then your proposed bartering scheme falls apart as the value of your bater proposition fluctuates. What would we do then?

[Great Nepal]

Life is composed of more than eating.
You are using NS at the moment from (what I assume) a computer: is computer necessary? Is use of NS necessary? And I assume that you have a TV: is it necessary? I also assume that you have more than 2 pair of cloths: is that necessary? I could go on but I think that go the message across.

I use all of them because they are useful in a society that is information/consumerism based.

NS provides you with information.... somehow.
Radio can provide information and news: you dont need computer, mobile and TV for that.

Not only would I be socially ostracized for not wearing proper clothing,

And that is Essential for survival?

but I would be an ill-informed animal if I didn't keep up to date with the news of the day. Simple as that.

NS provides you with news.... somehow.
Radio can provide news: you dont need computer, mobile and TV for that.

What does this have to do with Essential Products and Consumerism? I'm complaining about that, not televisions and fridges......
Nice way to derail arguement.

Because none of them are Essential Products?

[Sibirsky]

Education also costs money and requires labor. I have nod desire to learn homebuilding or water purification. Division of labor creates efficiency. I'll leave that up to those that are better at it and pay for their services.

What do Rhodesia and Sierra Leone have to do with anything?

I know it may seem random, but Rhodesia and Sierra Leone are stark examples of how Unrestrained Capitalism has ruined a formerly vibrant tribal culture. Yes, they may have been backwards, but just because some of us may have accelerated beyond that state does not make us morally just. It does especially not justify enslaving entire colonies and abusing cultural and educational potential. Henceforth, recompensation for the unfortunate who have not had their issues addressed sufficiently.

There were massive violations of basic rights which are the cornerstone of capitalism in Zimbabwe. Both suffered through wars. Both suffer with massive corruption, a lack of rule of law and a lack of capital investment. They have nothing to do with capitalism. Unregulated, or otherwise.

[Sibirsky]

I'm going to have to go with Valtieres on this one. Such things as money and property are only human inventions designed by the rich to keep them separate from the poor.In a communist society, these people are equal, no matter how big an advantage the rich previously had over the poor. The reasons communism failed are that it was never practiced in its purest form, equality and completely equal distribution, and that the countries that practiced it have not had the wealth to do so. countries that try communism are usually poor, so there is no wealth to distribute, causing everyone to be poor. therefore, if a rich country, like the united states, used the theory of communism, we may be able, at he expense of a couple of whining rich guys, finally achieve equality in this country.

Equal distribution is neither desirable nor fair.

[Sibirsky]

And why is this better than currency?

Because it apparently gives you warm, fluffy feeling inside...

I'd rather just buy (with currency) something warm and fluffy.

[Great Nepal]

Because it apparently gives you warm, fluffy feeling inside...

I'd rather just buy (with currency) something warm and fluffy.

Good point...

[Sibirsky]

Bartering is grossly inefficient. Lets say I make chairs. So I have a bunch of chairs. To get something I want, lets say, apples, I have to find someone with apples, that also wants chairs. What if the only guy with apples does not want any chairs? I have to find someone else that does want chairs in exchange for whatever he or she has, and then hope whatever it is they give me is desirable to the apple guy. How would I transport these chairs? And why is this better than currency?

The value of currency fluctuates. Simple, basic objects and their rules applying to Physics never do.

So?

In a barter economy some item that was commonly available would arise as de facto currency. People would trade for that particular item no matter what they wanted because it could be exchanged for something that they did want. However, a new item could arise as the de facto currency because it was better in some way. In that case, the value of the old de facto currency would drop. If you had a love of the old item you would lose savings. If you had a lot of the new item just you would gain value.

Same shit.

[Sibirsky]

I'd rather just buy (with currency) something warm and fluffy.

Good point...

You may or may not know, that I export industrial parts. Like 2000 pound motors and shit. I cringe at the though of having to try and exchange a 2000 pound motor for a burger.

[Conserative Morality]

You may or may not know, that I export industrial parts. Like 2000 pound motors and shit. I cringe at the though of having to try and exchange a 2000 pound motor for a burger.

"I'm sorry sir, but three dozen burgers is all we have at the moment. Unless you'd like to come back later...?"

"Shit, you know what, forget it, I'm not going to cheat myself out of the full value of this thing. Just let me try to get this through the doorway again, I'll find some other burger joint..."

[Great Nepal]

Good point...

You may or may not know, that I export industrial parts. Like 2000 pound motors and shit. I cringe at the though of having to try and exchange a 2000 pound motor for a burger.

That would be quite fun to watch... Sibirsky going to Macdonalds and giving 2000 pound motor for big mac.

[Sibirsky]

You may or may not know, that I export industrial parts. Like 2000 pound motors and shit. I cringe at the though of having to try and exchange a 2000 pound motor for a burger.

"I'm sorry sir, but three dozen burgers is all we have at the moment. Unless you'd like to come back later...?"

"Shit, you know what, forget it, I'm not going to cheat myself out of the full value of this thing. Just let me try to get this through the doorway again, I'll find some other burger joint..."

You may or may not know, that I export industrial parts. Like 2000 pound motors and shit. I cringe at the though of having to try and exchange a 2000 pound motor for a burger.

That would be quite fun to watch... Sibirsky going to Macdonalds and giving 2000 pound motor for big mac.

It would take several people just to get it in there. And what the hell would McDonald's do with it?

[Sibirsky]

I don't even use cash anymore. I have direct deposit and use my debit card.

[Kubra]

I don't even use cash anymore. I have direct deposit and use my debit card.

I got this chip in my cell phone
I move my cell phone by a scanner and it spends my money

[Dustistan]

Bartering is grossly inefficient. Lets say I make chairs. So I have a bunch of chairs. To get something I want, lets say, apples, I have to find someone with apples, that also wants chairs. What if the only guy with apples does not want any chairs? I have to find someone else that does want chairs in exchange for whatever he or she has, and then hope whatever it is they give me is desirable to the apple guy. How would I transport these chairs? And why is this better than currency?

The value of currency fluctuates. Simple, basic objects and their rules applying to Physics never do.

The value of objects fluctuates. Simple, basic dollar bills and their rules applying to Physics never do.

[Mythryll]

What people don't realize, Jesus was a Socialist

[Wolny Kraj]

I find it frustrating that the Right-Wing can so easily assume the moral high ground when it comes to the cost of people killed due to idealogical policies.

First of all:

Capitalism has promoted the use of slavery, wage slavery, poverty, ignorance of civil rights and political rights, and general apathy for your fellow human being. It is frustrating to see a politically useless country like the U.S stand the way it is because no one really cares. The ones who care are just authoritarians and free-market preachers, or half-assed variants of them. Some claim America has the highest standard of living, but tell that to the homeless living in Detroit, Chicago, New York, etc.....There are some who have attempted to " Earn their merit ", but they still falter. Why? Because Unrestrained Capitalism produces stagnation. The rich tend to forget in their duties to investing in products, and hoarde their money like medieval European monarchs. Not only do they forget about the productive members of society, but they hire incompetents that are far more interested in their wallets than in their peoples prosperity.

America is just a big, shitty, stagnating excuse for a Democracy. Freedom of Speech? Big Fucking Deal. The reality is that we have those rights because the government KNOWS that your silly political ideals, no matter how Right or Left they are, will never make it beyond the drawing board. It is not that this is a historical incident, but a modern one. Contemporary Statism and Corporatism mixed with Necessity-Based Consumerism.

Why the fuck do I have to pay for WATER? Why do I have to pay for HOUSING? Why do I have to pay for some of the most basic necessities on earth? Why? Because Money is what Capitalism values. Not innovation, not prosperity, and most certainly not equality. It creates tension, stagnation, and resentment.

Capitalism has killed more cultures and people silently. State Capitalists like Stalin and Mao did it bluntly, but Capitalists maintain a better image because they wiped out entire populations through the use of Imperialism/Mercantilism, and aggressive expansion. They enclose a culture in it's own territory, subjugate it, abuse it, harvest it's fruits, and then abandon it. Simply by leaving survivors Capitalism claims the upper moral ground. Simple as that. Native Americans that are living a life of poverty and border-line incest don't complain. Why? It isn't politically correct. Capitalist European powers such as France and England can't argue much either. France occupied and nearly brutalized the culture of Southeastern Asia, while England monopolized entire peoples, using them as militarized cannon fodder and manufacturing labour.

What has Communism done? Nothing. It has never been practiced and never will be. Why? Because as long as you and I exist on this planet, there will be those who take a passive, idealistic stance, and those who take an aggressive, pessimistic stance. The aggressives will always trump the idealistics as long as they remain together, and the grand cycle of oppression continues on and on and on and on.

Am I sugar-coating Communism? No. Lenin and Ho practiced borderline Socialism, but they had their flaws. The ineffectively managed their people, but to an understandable degree. They were in civil war, and they required order to prevail over the chaos of years of abuse under Imperialism. Simple. Ho with the American Intervention, and Lenin with the Pro-Tsarist Whites.

To close off any arguements concerning the madness of " Communistic Living ", I had a relative who lived in Romania during Ceacescu's reign. He absolutely despised the man, but also had this to say:

" While I was in Romania, I never once suffered the danger of poverty, I never once suffered the danger of being evicted for not being able to pay my taxes, I never once felt isolated because of regional background, I never once felt that I was an undervalued member of society, and I never once felt that my life would end because of my personal financing......"

My relative eventually ended up leaving Romania for the U.S, and after speaking with him some more, he told me this:

" I regret coming here. Detroit is horrendous, and never did I imagine such a large city would contain so much misery. The schools here are an abomination, the politicians are idiots just like our old ones, and people seem far less motivated to LIVE. They are lifeless husks wandering about......."

My relative attended free education in Romania, recieved free athletic training, and recieved free Extra-Curricular education. Not only does he understand advanced Algebraic-Concepts, and the equivalent of Honors Geometry in the U.S. He also was able to attend a prestigious Karate academy in Bucharest, and became a teacher, openning his own school. He had his OWN FUCKING SCHOOL!

In the U.S, you imagine all of these cool karate movies, with happy-faced Asians educating the masses of America without complaint. What a fucking joke. My father earned his belt through an entire decade of merit, while wanna-be's here earn their Black Belt in less than two years, especially children. Pathetic.

You Capitalists praise a system of merit, skill, productivity, freedom, political rights, and equality when you can't even best fucking Ceacescu's policies in education. Let me add that he was one of the MOST CORRUPT leaders in the history of Warsaw Pact Europe. Yet how is it that my relative manages to retain his job even after this " Horrific, Education-Absent Dictatorship "? Because both sides of the political fuck-fest lied.

My relative is a successful business owner, and manages a small work-force of 10 Romanians. Is he some sort of illiterate monkey? No. By far. He is politically open about his beliefs, and he occasionally comments on how useless such a freedom is when the government could care less about public opinion.

Is he some sort of monster? Is he a dog of Communism? Is he under-educated?

I ask any Far-Right Capitalist this:

Why is it so wrong to promote equality, justice, security, and health? Why? If my relative was able to live under such " Cesspit-like " conditions and still manage to have top-notch healthcare, welfare, and a job? Free education? College level education? How does this Communist dog manage to understand " Capitalist-Innovated " mathematics while living under such a horrible dictatorship? Can't you thick-headed mongrels imagine the good if a TRUE Socialist society could be established? My relative prior to coming into America was a farmer. A fucking farmer.

Farmer. Fucking Farmer. There are people. in College today that can barely comprehend true mathematics, but somehow a farmer from the fucking Romanian countryside manages to absorb these concepts with enthusiasm and SUCCEED in a global market. How? Fucking how?

Hypocrisy. Fucking hypocrisy.

High five for long posts!

[Wolny Kraj]

Your sense of entitlement is outrageous. Why the fuck should someone build a house for you? Why the fuck should someone provide you with anything at all?

I never specified that I had to be provided housing. Merely that I have a right to it. Get your views fucking straight.

It's not like we would just be saying build me a house and feed me! We would each provide something back to the world, and they would all give their goods and services to us. If everyone provides something that someone else needs, we all get everything we need all the time. There is no reason that we should collect colored, meaningless paper while others starve in the street because they weren't born into America's oil-igarchy.

What people don't realize, Jesus was a Socialist

Indeed.

[Sibirsky]

I don't even use cash anymore. I have direct deposit and use my debit card.

I got this chip in my cell phone
I move my cell phone by a scanner and it spends my money

Yeah, technology is cool.

[Sibirsky]

I never specified that I had to be provided housing. Merely that I have a right to it. Get your views fucking straight.

It's not like we would just be saying build me a house and feed me! We would each provide something back to the world, and they would all give their goods and services to us. If everyone provides something that someone else needs, we all get everything we need all the time. There is no reason that we should collect colored, meaningless paper while others starve in the street because they weren't born into America's oil-igarchy.

We (capitalists) do provide something back to the world. Goods and services. And we get what we need and want in return. I wasn't born into America's oil-igarchy. Hell, I wasn't even born in America and I am not starving. In fact, I am doing much better than I was when I lived in socialist nation.

What people don't realize, Jesus was a Socialist

Indeed.

So?

[Valtieres]

It is obvious Sibirsky is convinced on his Capitalist mindset. There is no effort in trying to convert him that could be otherwise named wasteful. I still retain my views and you have only succeeded in moderately annoying me.

I respect some of your opinions, but we still have some infinitely stark, contrasting views. That, and the Capitalist Butt-Buddy show is starting to arrive. To the Commie-Mobile!