Becoming a socialist.

[Distruzio]

What if he has one arm? What if he has a pacemaker? What if he is 98? What if he is 7? What if he has allergies? What if he is blind in one eye? What if he is color blind? What if he is deaf? What if he is legally retarded? What if he cannot lift more than 25lbs? Etc etc etc.

Hence the welfare state?...

But then the factory could deny him his right to work b/c the gov't would pick up the slack. Is the unemployment line now considered employment?

[Sucrati]

Ah yes. Where Koreans in the North are several inches shorter than Koreans in the South. Because who needs to be tall when Dear Leader is only 4 feet tall?

Right, Juche has led to a poverty stricken populace that has a nutter as a leader, congrats, that's socialism for you.

Even accepting that a country with absolutely no worker ownership is socialist, that's an induction fallacy.[/quote]

I was responding to this post:

The best socialism is Juche. It means that our nation is stronger than anyone else's.

You could say I was being sarcastic at the comparison that Juche is Socialism, however, Juche was envisioned as a way to avoid being a 'Soviet' style state, instead of portraying itself as a revolutionary state all it's own.

[Trotskylvania]

While the Soviet Union wasn't kind to religious beliefs in general, and openly supressed the reactionary Orthodox Church, they didn't execute people based on religious belief, and they certainly didn't commit genocide.

Credible estimates of deaths due to the famine caused by collectivization, purges, and Gulags put the death toll around ten million. Compare that to the 11 milllion victims of the Holocaust, and the 35 million soviet civilians and soldiers killed by the Axis during World War 2, and it's pretty easy to see who was the bigger evil.

Incorrect post is incorrect....

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

I would ask where you found such nonsense?

Rummel is a political hack, and his statistics have about the same credibility as a holocaust denier's. Even Conquest revised his figures downwards after the Cold War, in light of actual evidence rather than keeping the same outright stupid propaganda. The god damn statistics of births and population change in the Soviet Union cannot be be squared with Rummel's figures.

Any sane person would conclude Rummel is full of crap and has a dishonest axe to grind.

Lying about numbers is bullshit of the highest caliber. Turning those killed by Stalin and his ilk into empty political tools does a disservice to their memory.

[Shaoyuan]

Surely the factory would be the government so the distinction is academic?...

[The Merchant Republics]

I think you misunderstand

I think what he means is everyone has the right to be able to have a job. Meaning, no one can get turned away at a factory so long as he is able to contribute towards production.

What if he has one arm? What if he has a pacemaker? What if he is 98? What if he is 7? What if he has allergies? What if he is blind in one eye? What if he is color blind? What if he is deaf? What if he is legally retarded? What if he cannot lift more than 25lbs? Etc etc etc.

You know what, he's right. There's no economic reason not to hire less productive people for jobs so long as you can pay them less in relation to their lesser productivity. Pay him $3 an hour, throw him a bone.

That makes good sense, the problem of course is that I can't pay him $3 an hour legally. So why bother, he isn't worth 7.50 so he isn't productive to me.

[Mongolian Khanate]

I like some parts of it, like Universial Health Care and Education. But the whole community owned thing is not something I like at all, everybody should have a right to own their own business. The best version is a mix of Capitialism and Socialism, free markets for the most part, just regulated up to wazoo and government funded saftey nets like health care, social security and free education.

Canada, anyone?

You're welcome to bust your ass throught our immigration system. Please, have a fine stay

[Sibirsky]

Canada, anyone?

You're welcome to bust your ass throught our immigration system. Please, have a fine stay

I know plenty of Russians up in Toronto. Some in Montreal. Not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable.

[Distruzio]

What if he has one arm? What if he has a pacemaker? What if he is 98? What if he is 7? What if he has allergies? What if he is blind in one eye? What if he is color blind? What if he is deaf? What if he is legally retarded? What if he cannot lift more than 25lbs? Etc etc etc.

You know what, he's right. There's no economic reason not to hire less productive people for jobs so long as you can pay them less in relation to their lesser productivity. Pay him $3 an hour, throw him a bone.

That makes good sense, the problem of course is that I can't pay him $3 an hour legally. So why bother, he isn't worth 7.50 so he isn't productive to me.

Assuming I could pay them less, then of course I would be in favor of hiring less productive workers. But as it stands at the moment, and knowing socialist fair wage initiatives... I made an assumption of perfect socialist order.

[Mongolian Khanate]

You're welcome to bust your ass throught our immigration system. Please, have a fine stay

I know plenty of Russians up in Toronto. Some in Montreal. Not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable.

If anyone wants to migrate, they should do it now. Because after this election, this is going to get a bit harder

[Sibirsky]

I know plenty of Russians up in Toronto. Some in Montreal. Not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable.

If anyone wants to migrate, they should do it now. Because after this election, this is going to get a bit harder

They're on their own. Took me a decade to get US citizenship. And since it was right after the collapse of the USSR, I spent that decade as a "stateless person."

[Kubra]

Concern. How is the public good defined? Can we presume that the public good for Siberia is the same as the public good for Equatorial Guinea?

For example, the differences in weather conditions. If we are to, as you presume, guide economic calculation based upon the rationale of catering to the public good, which public good to we cater to? The worldwide public good? How about the national public good? Sticking with the weather example for consistency, consider America. Can we say that those in Maine are subject to the same or even similar weather as those in Florida? Which public good do we consider when presuming to address the issue with weather preparedness? So the question remains, which public is benefited by catering to the public? Is it a good to maintain a single clothing producer for the entirety of Humanity when the clothing produced for those in Equatorial Guinea will not satisfy those living in Siberia?

Public good is simply that labour which may be converted into benefit towards the public, meaning the people the worker caters to.
If his labour is inane and produces nothing towards the public for which he is paid for (a prostitute, for example) then he does not work towards the public good.
We can assume them to be the same in definition, though perhaps not in practice. I doubt the Siberian people would have much use for say, sandals.

How is this considered irrational? Do you, does any single man, or any group of men, know all of the jobs that exist or can exist? Consider the internet. 20 years ago, it did not exist. No job could have been imagined to allocate resources in the way that the internet allows for the allocation of resources. Resources that enrich and sustain life in previously impoverished locations (former Soviet East Germany, for example). 15 years ago, the internet was run on phone lines alone. Could cable and satellite internet be conceived of by a single man, or a group of men who did not know that even the internet would exist? My question, is it irrational that not all jobs exist at the same time? Isn't it, rather, rational that jobs can come into existence to provide income for those best suited for those jobs when new markets, technology, and people come into existence?

As I said in an edit, we've developed large and efficient systems that ultimately do nothing but satisfy superficial demands. After, all, where there is demand providing a supply will make sales, will it not? A methodology, but no actual direction.

You raise the question of the internet. As you said, " No job could have been imagined to allocate resources in the way that the internet allows for the allocation of resources". And you're quite right. However, what have you proved by bringing such up? The internet has made our system of allocation both more convenient and more efficient. Surely, we can consider jobs that falls under the category of product administration (as I mentioned earlier) as essential jobs under my stated definition.

You're raising questions that have already been answered. So long as a job provides for the production AND administration of goods we may consider essential to modern life then said jobs may continue to exist.

Rather, it seems you're ignoring the cornucopia of jobs that do not do such. Prostitutes, Jewelsmiths, Bureaucrats, Valet's, jobs for which nothing concrete or of practical value is gained.

Although, I could perhaps interpret this as you saying I am ignoring jobs regarding the development of technology, for which you are absolutely right. It seems I did. Though, I would see no reason to exclude them as an essential jobs.

As a former salesman, I assure you that this is not how the auto-sales market works. The salesman exists to cater to the consumers preference. Had the consumer no preference, then the salesman would not exist. Eliminate preferences for trucks over cars, all-wheel drive over front wheel drive, automatic transmission over manual, fuel efficient over gas guzzler, hybrid over electric, etc etc.... eliminate all of that and then you can see the auto-sales market disappear. But then we'd all be driving black, gas guzzling SUV's b/c they are cheaper than the sleek, fuel efficient electric cars.

The salesman provides the income for those who work. Of what use is an automobile that sits idle in a lot. How does a consumer discern which automobile to purchase when the workers are busy building new cars?

You are absolutely right. I did mistake the ideal definition of a car salesman. They can certainly be concerned an essential job. However, we must acknowledge their dedication to being competitive compared to their corporate rivals (a Nissan salesman will advocate Nissan cars regardless of any advantages other cars will have over them, no?). Would we not find ourselves needing less salesman if they could speak for the advantages of all cars, rather than a few speaking of the select few under their umbrella?

Very true. The economy, and the world, becomes stabilized. Until the first infant is born. Where will the job for that infant come from?

It will require something of the sort, it is very true. As I said, I'm not opposed to being convinced. I just haven't found anyone who c

Er, did you end your sentence in the middle of it?
I mean, not really meaning anything by it, just asking. I'm guessing you went to hit preview and something fucked up.

But what makes the first infant any different from our displaced worker(who is no longer displaced, mind you)?

[Mongolian Khanate]

If anyone wants to migrate, they should do it now. Because after this election, this is going to get a bit harder

They're on their own. Took me a decade to get US citizenship. And since it was right after the collapse of the USSR, I spent that decade as a "stateless person."

Ah, there is an exception I believe when you have US citizenship. You're admissible to get your canadian one a lot faster, even if you write in funny cyrillic

[Kubra]

I think you misunderstand

I think what he means is everyone has the right to be able to have a job. Meaning, no one can get turned away at a factory so long as he is able to contribute towards production.

What if he has one arm? What if he has a pacemaker? What if he is 98? What if he is 7? What if he has allergies? What if he is blind in one eye? What if he is color blind? What if he is deaf? What if he is legally retarded? What if he cannot lift more than 25lbs? Etc etc etc.

Do not all states concerned with the welfare of the public provide for those who are physically unable?
Unless, of course, you are advocating the practice of eugenics among our populace.

[Distruzio]

Rummel is a political hack, and his statistics have about the same credibility as a holocaust denier's. Even Conquest revised his figures downwards after the Cold War, in light of actual evidence rather than keeping the same outright stupid propaganda. The god damn statistics of births and population change in the Soviet Union cannot be be squared with Rummel's figures.

Any sane person would conclude Rummel is full of crap and has a dishonest axe to grind.

Lying about numbers is bullshit of the highest caliber. Turning those killed by Stalin and his ilk into empty political tools does a disservice to their memory.

Well, as an Orthodox Christian, I do admit that I have an axe to grind. Although it is not dishonest intentionally. I have never seen numbers to support you claim. Not once. We celebrate the martyrdom of a great many saints every day at the monastery nearby. I would assume that my Church would have the correct numbers. The dozens of survivors that I know have spoken of the horrors of Soviet persecution. So if they are misinformed, then perhaps you can point me to the correct information? That way I can let my priest know that the hundreds of millions of Orthodox who pray for the intercessions of these saints are incorrect in their assumptions surrounding the Soviets.

I really would appreciate that info.

[Sibirsky]

They're on their own. Took me a decade to get US citizenship. And since it was right after the collapse of the USSR, I spent that decade as a "stateless person."

Ah, there is an exception I believe when you have US citizenship. You're admissible to get your canadian one a lot faster, even if you write in funny cyrillic

I'm banned from Canada. Meh, been there, done that. Not worried about it.

[Kubra]

It is generally assumed that right to an income implies job.

Pardon.

Then I'll redirect the point. Jobs are something earned not taken as birthright. You can't just pluck jobs like manna from heaven, they must be created. Saying everyone deserves a job is the practical equivalent of saying everyone deserves to be fit and healthy. Nice sentiment but a meaningless gesture. Unemployment isn't caused by something you can sue. It's a disparity in the market, too many smiths not enough shoe makers.

If there is a lack of job, you simply create one.

You are, of course, aware of Roosevelts programs to create jobs?

A society will never run out of ideas on what may be improved within it. Simply pay people to have it improved and you will have created jobs for the people who need them.

[Mongolian Khanate]

Ah, there is an exception I believe when you have US citizenship. You're admissible to get your canadian one a lot faster, even if you write in funny cyrillic

I'm banned from Canada. Meh, been there, done that. Not worried about it.

How the hell...?

[Kubra]

I'm banned from Canada. Meh, been there, done that. Not worried about it.

How the hell...?

It's easier than you'd think.

[Mongolian Khanate]

How the hell...?

It's easier than you'd think.

I thought only if you were haitian

[The Merchant Republics]

As a former salesman, I assure you that this is not how the auto-sales market works. The salesman exists to cater to the consumers preference. Had the consumer no preference, then the salesman would not exist. Eliminate preferences for trucks over cars, all-wheel drive over front wheel drive, automatic transmission over manual, fuel efficient over gas guzzler, hybrid over electric, etc etc.... eliminate all of that and then you can see the auto-sales market disappear. But then we'd all be driving black, gas guzzling SUV's b/c they are cheaper than the sleek, fuel efficient electric cars.

The salesman provides the income for those who work. Of what use is an automobile that sits idle in a lot. How does a consumer discern which automobile to purchase when the workers are busy building new cars?

You are absolutely right. I did mistake the ideal definition of a car salesman. They can certainly be concerned an essential job. However, we must acknowledge their dedication to being competitive compared to their corporate rivals (a Nissan salesman will advocate Nissan cars regardless of any advantages other cars will have over them, no?). Would we not find ourselves needing less salesman if they could speak for the advantages of all cars, rather than a few speaking of the select few under their umbrella?

They're called used car salesmen.

Frankly, it's not a matter of that. Different car businesses exist because competition allows for greater economic benefit.

[The Imperial Shard]

Rummel is a political hack, and his statistics have about the same credibility as a holocaust denier's. Even Conquest revised his figures downwards after the Cold War, in light of actual evidence rather than keeping the same outright stupid propaganda. The god damn statistics of births and population change in the Soviet Union cannot be be squared with Rummel's figures.

Any sane person would conclude Rummel is full of crap and has a dishonest axe to grind.

Lying about numbers is bullshit of the highest caliber. Turning those killed by Stalin and his ilk into empty political tools does a disservice to their memory.

Well, as an Orthodox Christian, I do admit that I have an axe to grind. Although it is not dishonest intentionally. I have never seen numbers to support you claim. Not once. We celebrate the martyrdom of a great many saints every day at the monastery nearby. I would assume that my Church would have the correct numbers. The dozens of survivors that I know have spoken of the horrors of Soviet persecution. So if they are misinformed, then perhaps you can point me to the correct information? That way I can let my priest know that the hundreds of millions of Orthodox who pray for the intercessions of these saints are incorrect in their assumptions surrounding the Soviets.

I really would appreciate that info.

I'm sorry, but as a kid who once studied the USSR to it's bone marrow, I fully support Distruzio on this one.

You'd have to be willfully blind to say that the USSR didn't kill people of faith.

[Sibirsky]

I'm banned from Canada. Meh, been there, done that. Not worried about it.

How the hell...?

I am banned for being an ultra-capitalist suspected of attempting to undermine the Canadian healthcare system in the late 90s on my visit there.

Actually it's a temporary ban for possession of marijuana. I can apply for a special exemption if I have a special reason to visit, or just wait until 2013 when they forget about it.

[Kubra]

You are absolutely right. I did mistake the ideal definition of a car salesman. They can certainly be concerned an essential job. However, we must acknowledge their dedication to being competitive compared to their corporate rivals (a Nissan salesman will advocate Nissan cars regardless of any advantages other cars will have over them, no?). Would we not find ourselves needing less salesman if they could speak for the advantages of all cars, rather than a few speaking of the select few under their umbrella?

They're called used car salesmen.

Frankly, it's not a matter of that. Different car businesses exist because competition allows for greater economic benefit.

Why yes, they are used car salesman. Now if we could extend their sales to cars that are brand new, we would have no need for the others!
We could divide the hours among them, and thus the car salesman would work less for the same amount!

Superficial benefit, at best. What could be better appropriated together is squandered.
Are you aware of tragedy of the commons?

[Mongolian Khanate]

How the hell...?

I am banned for being an ultra-capitalist suspected of attempting to undermine the Canadian healthcare system in the late 90s on my visit there.

Actually it's a temporary ban for possession of marijuana. I can apply for a special exemption if I have a special reason to visit, or just wait until 2013 when they forget about it.

Damn, if only we took political prisoners

[Kubra]

How the hell...?

I am banned for being an ultra-capitalist suspected of attempting to undermine the Canadian healthcare system in the late 90s on my visit there.

Actually it's a temporary ban for possession of marijuana. I can apply for a special exemption if I have a special reason to visit, or just wait until 2013 when they forget about it.

Man, someone actually busted you for that?
I mean, I can understand if it was a bag the size of my pillow, but I've been caught for having a few ounces loads of times. They don't care any more.