U.S. Senators looking into punishing Quaran burning.

[Kazomal]

Terry Jones is a knob, but two knobs don't make a...what's the opposite of knob, anyhow?

At any rate, while Jones was definitely being a jerkwad on purpose, that doesn't mean he's responsible for the fact that some people decided to commit murder over a book. It's like a few years back when PZ Myers desecrated a communion wafer and a bunch of Catholics flipped their shit and started calling for his head...it's all bullshit, whether it's the Christians or the Muslims or the Scientologists, it's always bullshit to allow symbols of your superstitious beliefs to have more value than human life.

I don't think it's so much a rational choice of "my beliefs are more important than human life" as it is a "I'm pissed off and want to kill you" thing, and when that's exactly the reaction you were going for, you can't honestly try to separate yourself from the results of that reaction.

Even if you don't believe in God, or respect others' beliefs, it's more than a book. It represents a part of their culture, a part of their identity. When you're pissing on the Koran, you're not just pissing on Allah, you're pissing on them. It's just a big "Fuck you!"

Obviously the people who committed the violence are responsible for their actions, but incited violence is still incited violence. Both parties can be wrong, and responsible for the violence. The mob for doing the violence, and "pastor" Jones for doing something hateful that he knew would incite violence.

Its like the burning of Jewish books in Nazi-Germany......

Yeah, that's the real issue here.

Yes yes, protected speech is protected speech, we're all in agreement that he shouldn't be prosecuted. But what about the implications for our society? Not that this guy is our society, but he's a part of our society, and the widespread malevolence and suspicion, legitimized on the mass media and TV news, towards a specific ethnic group is something that we should be concerned about. So, without resorting to prosecution of protected speech, how can we combat hate towards Muslims in America?


Come on NSG, I know we can do it!

[Bottle]

Terry Jones is a knob, but two knobs don't make a...what's the opposite of knob, anyhow?

At any rate, while Jones was definitely being a jerkwad on purpose, that doesn't mean he's responsible for the fact that some people decided to commit murder over a book. It's like a few years back when PZ Myers desecrated a communion wafer and a bunch of Catholics flipped their shit and started calling for his head...it's all bullshit, whether it's the Christians or the Muslims or the Scientologists, it's always bullshit to allow symbols of your superstitious beliefs to have more value than human life.

I don't think it's so much a rational choice of "my beliefs are more important than human life" as it is a "I'm pissed off and want to kill you" thing, and when that's exactly the reaction you were going for, you can't honestly try to separate yourself from the results of that reaction.

Even if you don't believe in God, or respect others' beliefs, it's more than a book. It represents a part of their culture, a part of their identity. When you're pissing on the Koran, you're not just pissing on Allah, you're pissing on them. It's just a big "Fuck you!"

Obviously the people who committed the violence are responsible for their actions, but incited violence is still incited violence. Both parties can be wrong, and responsible for the violence. The mob for doing the violence, and "pastor" Jones for doing something hateful that he knew would incite violence.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. I deal with people doing far worse to my beliefs EVERY SINGLE DAY and I've never tried to be violent or harm anybody else. Hell, the last two presidents of my country signed laws that specifically state that I, and people like me, are not full citizens of our country and deserve to be treated as lesser beings, yet I didn't riot. People like me didn't murder a single fucking soul over these injustices, even though these violations were actual REAL violations and not just symbolic fuck-yous.

[Genivaria]

I don't think it's so much a rational choice of "my beliefs are more important than human life" as it is a "I'm pissed off and want to kill you" thing, and when that's exactly the reaction you were going for, you can't honestly try to separate yourself from the results of that reaction.

Even if you don't believe in God, or respect others' beliefs, it's more than a book. It represents a part of their culture, a part of their identity. When you're pissing on the Koran, you're not just pissing on Allah, you're pissing on them. It's just a big "Fuck you!"

Obviously the people who committed the violence are responsible for their actions, but incited violence is still incited violence. Both parties can be wrong, and responsible for the violence. The mob for doing the violence, and "pastor" Jones for doing something hateful that he knew would incite violence.

Hell, the last two presidents of my country signed laws that specifically state that I, and people like me, are not full citizens of our country and deserve to be treated as lesser beings, yet I didn't riot.

Wait, what are you referring to?

[Katganistan]

The pastor is an asshat, but I do believe the First Amendment still applies.

[Galloism]

The pastor is an asshat, but I do believe the First Amendment still applies.

Silly Kat, rights only exist as far as your exercising them doesn't piss off other people to the extent that they start murdering third parties.

Btw, abortion is banned tomorrow in order to stem the tide of violence.

[Florin and Atlantis]

Terry Jones is a knob, but two knobs don't make a...what's the opposite of knob, anyhow?

At any rate, while Jones was definitely being a jerkwad on purpose, that doesn't mean he's responsible for the fact that some people decided to commit murder over a book. It's like a few years back when PZ Myers desecrated a communion wafer and a bunch of Catholics flipped their shit and started calling for his head...it's all bullshit, whether it's the Christians or the Muslims or the Scientologists, it's always bullshit to allow symbols of your superstitious beliefs to have more value than human life.

I don't think it's so much a rational choice of "my beliefs are more important than human life" as it is a "I'm pissed off and want to kill you" thing, and when that's exactly the reaction you were going for, you can't honestly try to separate yourself from the results of that reaction.

Even if you don't believe in God, or respect others' beliefs, it's more than a book. It represents a part of their culture, a part of their identity. When you're pissing on the Koran, you're not just pissing on Allah, you're pissing on them. It's just a big "Fuck you!"

Obviously the people who committed the violence are responsible for their actions, but incited violence is still incited violence. Both parties can be wrong, and responsible for the violence. The mob for doing the violence, and "pastor" Jones for doing something hateful that he knew would incite violence.

Its like the burning of Jewish books in Nazi-Germany......

Yeah, that's the real issue here.

Yes yes, protected speech is protected speech, we're all in agreement that he shouldn't be prosecuted. But what about the implications for our society? Not that this guy is our society, but he's a part of our society, and the widespread malevolence and suspicion, legitimized on the mass media and TV news, towards a specific ethnic group is something that we should be concerned about. So, without resorting to prosecution of protected speech, how can we combat hate towards Muslims in America?


Come on NSG, I know we can do it!

At the same time, you don't hear about them protesting when somebody kills innocent people in the name of Allah. Whereas in America, people protest about the War on Terror all the time.

[Qatarab]

Supposedly his church lost nearly all its parishoners due to death threats and he now carries a gun on himself. Of course the police are also supposedly going to protect them but now im just annoyed at hearing such a thing. Do you really think people want tax money to go to protect a pyscho who brought his fate upon himself? the cops have more important business to do and thats protect those who are harmed due to the actions of that retarded pastor,not the retarded pastor. If he wants protection then he should hire security services.
EDIT:I still don't see how burning a Quran is bad when in fact burning it is a way of "respectfully" disposing it. Hell i'll gather up some damaged Quran's and have them fedexed to this guy so he can start a bonfire and do the job for me.

Maybe we can then start a cult of the rednecks where he start bonfires and start burning "Moslem" books and chanting some strange language with an accent. Heck we'll even resurrect Hitler to lead us....

[SaintB]

People did get hurt...

The pastor didn't kill anyone.

If you want to say he's morally implicated in deaths, then fine. But he isn't legally responsible for other peoples' actions.

That's like saying a rape victim was responsible for her own rape because she dressed "inappropriately". It's ludicrous.

I do believe he is morally implicated because that was the result he wanted and expected, I know he didn't commit any actionable offense in the United States.

[Genivaria]

Supposedly his church lost nearly all its parishoners due to death threats and he now carries a gun on himself. Of course the police are also supposedly going to protect them but now im just annoyed at hearing such a thing. Do you really think people want tax money to go to protect a pyscho who brought his fate upon himself? the cops have more important business to do and thats protect those who are harmed due to the actions of that retarded pastor,not the retarded pastor. If he wants protection then he should hire security services.
EDIT:I still don't see how burning a Quran is bad when in fact burning it is a way of "respectfully" disposing it. Hell i'll gather up some damaged Quran's and have them fedexed to this guy so he can start a bonfire and do the job for me.

Maybe we can then start a cult of the rednecks where he start bonfires and start burning "Moslem" books and chanting some strange language with an accent. Heck we'll even resurrect Hitler to lead us....

I look at your flag and your comment and laugh.

[Minnysota]

Hmm, isn't the Quaran burning protected by the freedom of speech?

[Farnhamia]

Hmm, isn't the Quaran burning protected by the freedom of speech?

Yes, but you have to fill out an affidavit swearing you will never spell it that way again.

[Crumplarstan]

Free speech, US government can't do anything about it without creating a great contradiction of rights

[Minnysota]

Hmm, isn't the Quaran burning protected by the freedom of speech?

Yes, but you have to fill out an affidavit swearing you will never spell it that way again.

... er, what?

[Northwest Slobovia]

Reid: Probe of Quran Burning Considered
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says congressional lawmakers are discussing taking some action in response to the Koran burnings of a Tennessee pastor that led to killings at the U.N. facility in Afghanistan and sparked protests across the Middle East, Politico reports.
“Ten to 20 people have been killed," Reid said Sunday on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” “We’ll take a look at this of course. As to whether we need hearings or not, I don’t know.”
Sen. Lindsey Graham said Congress might need to explore the need to limit some forms of freedom of speech, in light of Tennessee pastor Terry Jones’ Quran burning, and how such actions result in enabling U.S. enemies.
"I wish we could find a way to hold people accountable. Free speech is a great idea, but we're in a war," Graham told CBS' Bob Schieffer on “Face the Nation” Sunday.

Typical FOX reporting. Lemme correct their mistakes:

Reid: Probe of Quran Burning Considered
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says congressional lawmakers are discussing posturing in response to the Koran burnings of a Tennessee pastor that led to killings at the U.N. facility in Afghanistan and sparked protests across the Middle East, Politico reports.
“Ten to 20 people have been killed," Reid said Sunday on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” “We’ll take a look at this of course. As to whether we need to pontificate in public or not, I don’t know.”
Sen. Lindsey Graham said Congress might need to blovate for public consumption, in light of Tennessee pastor Terry Jones’ Quran burning, and how such actions result in enabling U.S. enemies.
"I wish we could find a way to distract Americans from the more pressing matters that Congress should be attending to. Free speech is a great distractor, as is mentioning that we're in a war," Graham told CBS' Bob Schieffer on “Face the Nation” Sunday.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Two words: Hate crime.

That's the only way he could ever be prosecuted.

I really wish people would learn what a freaking hate crime is - and, more relevantly here, what it isn't. Most notably, something has to be a crime before it can be a hate crime, and the whole concept of hate crimes affects sentencing. Not arrest. Not prosecution. Not conviction. Sentencing. You cannot prosecute someone for a non-crime, no matter how hateful that non-crime was.

[Liuzzo]

It's free speech. He should be allowed to do it. I will remind you that there are things we can do but it doesn't mean we should. What point is this fucking jerkoff trying to make? Is it helpful to the discussion. It's says I'm an intolerant fuckwad der de der. It does nothing more to incite anger and put service men and women in danger. General Patreus said it amongst other leaders. It is terrible and if this fool thinks he is supporting America by doing this the troops says no thank you.

[Bluth Corporation]

Saying "he should be allowed to do it" implies that the freedom to engage in this act is a mere privilege that the government may revoke if it so desires. Clearly, that's not the case. Better language would be "he is entitled to do it," because that more accurately reflects the fact that it is an inherent right of his, rather than a mere boon granted by the ruler.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Two words: Hate crime.

Does not exist in the US. For it to be a hate crime, they have to actually kill or lynch a Muslim or two or call upon others to do so to kill maim or lynch Muslims. The burning of holy books whether the Bible Torah, Vedas, or Koran are protected by the first amendment. Even hate rallies are protected as is cross burning.

The goal has to be serious bodily injury to actual people. The Koran is not a person. It's a book written by flawed men thousands of years ago.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Two words: Hate crime.

Does not exist in the US. For it to be a hate crime, they have to actually kill or lynch a Muslim or two or call upon others to do so to kill maim or lynch Muslims. The burning of holy books whether the Bible Torah, Vedas, or Koran are protected by the first amendment. Even hate rallies are protected as is cross burning.

The goal has to be serious bodily injury to actual people. The Koran is not a person. It's a book written by flawed men thousands of years ago.

Not quite true - crimes other than murder, assault, battery, etc. can also be hate crimes. Vandalism and arson, for example, can absolutely be hate crimes. If I paint swastikas on a synagogue, there's a very decent chance that would be considered a hate crime. It's not that it has to be violent; it's simply that it has to be a crime, which burning one's own property simply isn't, however utterly dickish it is in this case.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Does not exist in the US. For it to be a hate crime, they have to actually kill or lynch a Muslim or two or call upon others to do so to kill maim or lynch Muslims. The burning of holy books whether the Bible Torah, Vedas, or Koran are protected by the first amendment. Even hate rallies are protected as is cross burning.

The goal has to be serious bodily injury to actual people. The Koran is not a person. It's a book written by flawed men thousands of years ago.

Not quite true - crimes other than murder, assault, battery, etc. can also be hate crimes. Vandalism and arson, for example, can absolutely be hate crimes. If I paint swastikas on a synagogue, there's a very decent chance that would be considered a hate crime. It's not that it has to be violent; it's simply that it has to be a crime, which burning one's own property simply isn't, however utterly dickish it is in this case.

That is correct. However I was referring to the burning of one's own property or even the burning of a cross or Koran at a protest event. Or the dipping of the Bible in feces. I consider the Bible a sacred book but people still have a right to burn it or dip it feces as long as it is one they own and not one they stole or borrowed without consent.
These days, you don't have to be antisemetic to graffiti a synagogue with swastikas. Some kids do it because they think its cool and makes them look macho. They are just trying to score points on the popularity scale. Many don't understand the import of what they are doing.

[Seperates]

These senators are reprehensible. Even hate mongering has some place in this society, as it is protected by freedom of speech. The Quran is no more holy than the Bible, which no more holy than The Hobbit (despite the Hobbit being a much bettter written book). And even the Hobbit can be burned, even at the revulsion of Tolkien fans everywhere. And the reaction to it is equally as reprehensible. What if Tolkien fans were to arm themselves and riot over the burning of The Hobbit? We would condemn them. But if it's a religious/cultural icon? Oh no, they have all the right in the world to kill 12 civilians... Absolute douchballery.

[Meryuma]

I don't think it's so much a rational choice of "my beliefs are more important than human life" as it is a "I'm pissed off and want to kill you" thing, and when that's exactly the reaction you were going for, you can't honestly try to separate yourself from the results of that reaction.

Even if you don't believe in God, or respect others' beliefs, it's more than a book. It represents a part of their culture, a part of their identity. When you're pissing on the Koran, you're not just pissing on Allah, you're pissing on them. It's just a big "Fuck you!"

Obviously the people who committed the violence are responsible for their actions, but incited violence is still incited violence. Both parties can be wrong, and responsible for the violence. The mob for doing the violence, and "pastor" Jones for doing something hateful that he knew would incite violence.



Yeah, that's the real issue here.

Yes yes, protected speech is protected speech, we're all in agreement that he shouldn't be prosecuted. But what about the implications for our society? Not that this guy is our society, but he's a part of our society, and the widespread malevolence and suspicion, legitimized on the mass media and TV news, towards a specific ethnic group is something that we should be concerned about. So, without resorting to prosecution of protected speech, how can we combat hate towards Muslims in America?


Come on NSG, I know we can do it!

At the same time, you don't hear about them protesting when somebody kills innocent people in the name of Allah. Whereas in America, people protest about the War on Terror all the time.

Allah means "the god" in Arabic. It's like talking about how Ancient Roman Christians worshipped Deus or something.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

A very good article on the American approach to free speech and why Koran burning is a constitutionally protected action.

EDIT: I forgot to post the link.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11254419

[Florin and Atlantis]

At the same time, you don't hear about them protesting when somebody kills innocent people in the name of Allah. Whereas in America, people protest about the War on Terror all the time.

Allah means "the god" in Arabic. It's like talking about how Ancient Roman Christians worshipped Deus or something.

I know that. I just like to say Allah since I've heard Muslim people I know call God that. I meant no disrespect.

[Sierra Lobo]

Muslims don't think the Qu'ran was written by God, they believe it is the direct, uncorrupted word of God, however.

Your point?