US Army Damages Wonder of the Ancient World

[Muravyets]

A quick look at an archeology website
suggest that they only found the foundations and bricks to the Ishtar gate in 1899.
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/baby ... te-faq.htm

Furthermore, encyclopedia Brittanica
Reveals the remnants of the gate are current housed in a museum in Germany.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... shtar-Gate

With this I must conclude the CNN article is mistake and the army has damaged the replica built by Saddam.

case closed CNN pulled a Fox.

I think you are assuming. Too early to close this case. Your sources are superficial and, probably for that reason, appear to contradict each other.

The first says that the gate was reconstructed and the reconstruction is in Germany. That would be a copy. It also says that only the original foundations were found intact in Iraq. It says nothing at all about the foundations having been moved out in the 30s.

The second link says the original parts of the gate were moved out in 30s, but does not specify whether they mean the discovered remains of the glazed bricks and figures, or the foundations.

UNESCO has the mission of preserving original artifacts of cultural history in their original sites. They are extremely zealous in this, even to a point that I criticize them for, because they do sometimes allow preserving today to get in the way of preventing greater damage tomorrow.

But they do know the difference between the real Camelot and one that's "only a model." I do not believe they would get this worked up over Saddam's Super Babylon Play Set. If UNESCO says there were original features there that have been damaged, I say there is a very good chance they are right.

[The South Islands]

dammit, you need to get a new hobby besides stabbing TSI

I have one, but your mom is already asleep in the other room.

She is? Because I swear she was flogging your father with an electric eel.

[Muravyets]

It seems generally accepted that the hanging gardens existed (past tense), what is not known is exactly what they looked like, and where exactly they were located. Then add to the fact the area has been ravaged by many wars inbetween the fall of the Babylonian Empire and the Iraqi war...

Did the actual Ishtar Gate ever get found? Or was it all Saddam's fake?

The article says nothing about this being the location of Saddam's copy.

No bu archeology websites say the original is in Germany and has been there since the 1930's.

No, the two archeology sites you linked to say contradictory things about what is in Germany. I will need to see more information before I'm ready to close this case.

[Greed and Death]

A quick look at an archeology website
suggest that they only found the foundations and bricks to the Ishtar gate in 1899.
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/baby ... te-faq.htm

Furthermore, encyclopedia Brittanica
Reveals the remnants of the gate are current housed in a museum in Germany.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... shtar-Gate

With this I must conclude the CNN article is mistake and the army has damaged the replica built by Saddam.

case closed CNN pulled a Fox.

I think you are assuming. Too early to close this case. Your sources are superficial and, probably for that reason, appear to contradict each other.

The first says that the gate was reconstructed and the reconstruction is in Germany. That would be a copy. It also says that only the original foundations were found intact in Iraq. It says nothing at all about the foundations having been moved out in the 30s.

The second link says the original parts of the gate were moved out in 30s, but does not specify whether they mean the discovered remains of the glazed bricks and figures, or the foundations.

UNESCO has the mission of preserving original artifacts of cultural history in their original sites. They are extremely zealous in this, even to a point that I criticize them for, because they do sometimes allow preserving today to get in the way of preventing greater damage tomorrow.

But they do know the difference between the real Camelot and one that's "only a model." I do not believe they would get this worked up over Saddam's Super Babylon Play Set. If UNESCO says there were original features there that have been damaged, I say there is a very good chance they are right.

According to "Archaeology: An Introduction" by Kevin Greene
Original features is a term used for accurate reproductions generally on or near the location of the original.
Seems more like CNN didn't know what UNESCO was complaining about.
Woohoo for keeping the book from a course I dropped the first week of college.

[Muravyets]

A quick look at an archeology website
suggest that they only found the foundations and bricks to the Ishtar gate in 1899.
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/baby ... te-faq.htm

Furthermore, encyclopedia Brittanica
Reveals the remnants of the gate are current housed in a museum in Germany.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... shtar-Gate

With this I must conclude the CNN article is mistake and the army has damaged the replica built by Saddam.

case closed CNN pulled a Fox.

I think you are assuming. Too early to close this case. Your sources are superficial and, probably for that reason, appear to contradict each other.

The first says that the gate was reconstructed and the reconstruction is in Germany. That would be a copy. It also says that only the original foundations were found intact in Iraq. It says nothing at all about the foundations having been moved out in the 30s.

The second link says the original parts of the gate were moved out in 30s, but does not specify whether they mean the discovered remains of the glazed bricks and figures, or the foundations.

UNESCO has the mission of preserving original artifacts of cultural history in their original sites. They are extremely zealous in this, even to a point that I criticize them for, because they do sometimes allow preserving today to get in the way of preventing greater damage tomorrow.

But they do know the difference between the real Camelot and one that's "only a model." I do not believe they would get this worked up over Saddam's Super Babylon Play Set. If UNESCO says there were original features there that have been damaged, I say there is a very good chance they are right.

According to "Archaeology: An Introduction" by Kevin Greene
Original features is a term used for accurate reproductions generally on or near the location of the original.
Seems more like CNN didn't know what UNESCO was complaining about.
Woohoo for keeping the book from a course I dropped the first week of college.

I am perfectly willing to accept that CNN is wrong, but I am less willing to accept that you might be right about something. I will await further word from UNESCO.

[The South Islands]

We're ignoring the main point here. It doesn't matter exactly what was there, it matters that there was something there. That something happened to be the remains of one of the most powerful empires the world has ever seen. We're missing the forest to see the trees. And now some of the information we could have gathered about ancient Babylon is now impossible to record because of the shortsighted actions of the US Army.

[Muravyets]

We're ignoring the main point here. It doesn't matter exactly what was there, it matters that there was something there. That something happened to be the remains of one of the most powerful empires the world has ever seen. We're missing the forest to see the trees. And now some of the information we could have gathered about ancient Babylon is now impossible to record because of the shortsighted actions of the US Army.

I'm not ignoring that main point at all, but there are some posters here who seem like they wish we would ignore it.

[Hawaii And Midway]

Your ignoring the part where it wasn't the Hanging Gardens it was a replica built twenty some years ago.

[Pope Joan]

I'm sure the god of the city of Babylon is mightily displeased.

Not to sound like a Philistine, but this is war.

At least they didn't wreck a precious mosque or something.

[The South Islands]

Your ignoring the part where it wasn't the Hanging Gardens it was a replica built twenty some years ago.

But it was still the sight of Ancient Babylon. CNN may have swung and missed with the title. but they still hit an RBI Double.

[The Naacal]

We're ignoring the main point here. It doesn't matter exactly what was there, it matters that there was something there. That something happened to be the remains of one of the most powerful empires the world has ever seen. We're missing the forest to see the trees. And now some of the information we could have gathered about ancient Babylon is now impossible to record because of the shortsighted actions of the US Army.

And of the actions of Saddam Hussein, and the actions of who knows how many conquerers and looters over the last 2000+ years

[Hawaii And Midway]

Every piece of Earth has history to it. My backyard has more history then a tourist trap...

What about any ancient city? Are we never to build anything in cities over a thousand years old? Many are modern day metropolises now...

[Greed and Death]

Your ignoring the part where it wasn't the Hanging Gardens it was a replica built twenty some years ago.

But it was still the sight of Ancient Babylon. CNN may have swung and missed with the title. but they still hit an RBI Double.

But the site was pretty much soiled from when the Germans though Archeology meant degree in grave robbing and when Saddam built a replica over the site.
While our soldiers should have been more careful I find the damage they did insignificant to what has been done before.

[The South Islands]

Every piece of Earth has history to it. My backyard has more history then a tourist trap...

What about any ancient city? Are we never to build anything in cities over a thousand years old? Many are modern day metropolises now...

...and he strikes out on the logical slider.

[Muravyets]

I'm sure the god of the city of Babylon is mightily displeased.

Not to sound like a Philistine, but this is war.

At least they didn't wreck a precious mosque or something.

Rather than excuse it on the "this is war" grounds because I don't accept fighting a war we started unnecessarily as an excuse for anything, I would rather take the attitude of the Dalai Lama when he was asked about the Taliban in Afghanistan dynamiting those big giant ancient Buddha statues in the mountains there. He reminded everybody that they were just objects, and while it would have been perhaps smarter of the Taliban to keep them as a tourist attraction, it really was not that much of a tragedy compared to other things in the world.

So in this context, although the site DOES matter, it has not been dynamited. Yes, some things which could have taught us about the past may have been destroyed. That pisses me off.

But it pisses me off a shitload less than the thousands upon thousands of human lives that have been damaged and destroyed by this criminal war of choice.

So, yeah, frankly, on the grounds that (a) I'm pissed off about everything having to do with Iraq to begin with, and (b) the US Army are not the fucking Taliban and should fucking know better, I am disinclined to let the Army off the hook for this, even though it is a very minor screw-up compared to THE WHOLE REST OF THE FUCKING WAR.

ahem.

[Post-Unity Terra]

HERP DERP DEY IS RUINS ALREADY IT' S OKAY TO SMASH DEM HURRR

Jesus christ people, ruins or not the stuff's of historical value. Just because it's broken up doesn't mean it's alright to grind what's left into powder.

[Greed and Death]

Found the UNESCO report.
Gate of Ishtar is a reproduction.
However the damaged Greek theater and several temples were not.
Though most of the damage seems to be from the restaurants, parking lots, and palace Saddam had in place.
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0018/0 ... 83134e.pdf
The museum was broken into and items stolen in 2003, though those were plaster replicas.

Why did CNN focus on the Gate of Ishtar that the report said simply needs maintenance I will never know..

[The South Islands]

Found the UNESCO report.
Gate of Ishtar is a reproduction.
However the damaged Greek theater and several temples were not.
Though most of the damage seems to be from the restaurants, parking lots, and palace Saddam had in place.
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0018/0 ... 83134e.pdf
The museum was broken into and items stolen in 2003, though those were plaster replicas.

Why did CNN focus on the Gate of Ishtar that the report said simply needs maintenance I will never know..

Because CNN was going for the Wow factor.

This doesn't change the fact, again, that US forces destroyed parts of a 3000 year old city.

[Pope Joan]

Maybe they were trying to erase all memory of one of the worst movie flops of all time?

"8. "Ishtar" (1987, Columbia)
Budget: $55 million
U.S. Box Office: $12.7 million

The Plot: Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffman insult the memory of the Bob Hope-Bing Crosby "Road" movies in this Elaine May-directed desert-set tale of two supremely untalented singer-songwriters who land a Moroccan gig but make a pit stop in the fictional kingdom of Ishtar. Soon, they're embroiled in an extremely volatile Middle East political situation, which, if possible, is even less funny now than it was then.

Turkey Trivia: Notorious perfectionist May spent months editing the film, reportedly turning in a print only when the studio threatened legal action.

What the Critics Said: "This movie is a long, dry slog. It's not funny, it's not smart and it's interesting only in the way a traffic accident is interesting." -- Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times

The Aftermath: The stars, who pocketed a then-impressive $5.5 million apiece, emerged relatively unscathed from what was billed as the most expensive comedy ever made. Hoffman won an Oscar the following year for "Rain Man," but May never directed again, preferring to stay behind the scenes as a writer (e.g., "Primary Colors," "The Birdcage"). The film's title is now synonymous with movie bombs: Kevin Costner's gill-filled "Waterworld" was infamously dubbed "Fishtar," although at least that movie eventually broke even."

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=131054

Yes, I am showing little respect. This was a tyrant's monument to himself, for heaven's sake.

[Greed and Death]

Found the UNESCO report.
Gate of Ishtar is a reproduction.
However the damaged Greek theater and several temples were not.
Though most of the damage seems to be from the restaurants, parking lots, and palace Saddam had in place.
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0018/0 ... 83134e.pdf
The museum was broken into and items stolen in 2003, though those were plaster replicas.

Why did CNN focus on the Gate of Ishtar that the report said simply needs maintenance I will never know..

Because CNN was going for the Wow factor.

This doesn't change the fact, again, that US forces destroyed parts of a 3000 year old city.

If they keep going for the wow factor i am going to lump them in with Fox.

[Ravea]

It was destroyed long before we were there...

Doesn't mean we have to obliterate what precious little is left of it.

[Greed and Death]

It was destroyed long before we were there...

Doesn't mean we have to obliterate what precious little is left of it.

There is stuff left. Just not the stuff CNN focused on.

[Post-Unity Terra]

It was destroyed long before we were there...

Doesn't mean we have to obliterate what precious little is left of it.

There is stuff left. Just not the stuff CNN focused on.

I guess that means it's okay they destroyed some of it. It's okay everyone, don't worry, they didn't obliterate the whole thing!

[Ravea]

You failed to mention France and the Great Sphinx. (Artillery practice.)

Please tell me you know that is not true.

[United Russian State]

America