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Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should the dead have their day in court?

Yes. It is our duty to them and to our history.
8
13%
Maybe. Depends on the severity of the crime.
7
12%
No. It's silly and pointless.
42
70%
I don't like polls, so I'm going to post my own opinion in the thread.
3
5%
 
Total votes : 60

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Galloism
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Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Galloism » Thu May 21, 2009 10:33 am

Ok, in that other ridiculous thread there was a question about whether Hitler is innocent because he was never tried. (Yes, I Godwinned in the OP)

I responded that, in the eyes of the law, he is presumed innocent since he was never proven guilty in court. However, history tells a different story. The person I responded to then said that I said Hitler was innocent.

I have therefore decided to make a poll, because it's what I do. Should we let the dead have their day in court?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Dregruk
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Dregruk » Thu May 21, 2009 10:36 am

Galloism wrote:Ok, in that other ridiculous thread there was a question about whether Hitler is innocent because he was never tried. (Yes, I Godwinned in the OP)

I responded that, in the eyes of the law, he is presumed innocent since he was never proven guilty in court. However, history tells a different story. The person I responded to then said that I said Hitler was innocent.

I have therefore decided to make a poll, because it's what I do. Should we let the dead have their day in court?


Heh, we should create the world's most overworked court for just this purpose. Might take 50 years of cases before we could finally try Caligula!

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Sionis Prioratus
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Sionis Prioratus » Thu May 21, 2009 10:39 am

Galloism wrote:Ok, in that other ridiculous thread there was a question about whether Hitler is innocent because he was never tried. (Yes, I Godwinned in the OP)

I responded that, in the eyes of the law, he is presumed innocent since he was never proven guilty in court. However, history tells a different story. The person I responded to then said that I said Hitler was innocent.

I have therefore decided to make a poll, because it's what I do. Should we let the dead have their day in court?


Regarding Hitler, the death penalty (today) would be... difficult to enforce.
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Grays Harbor
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Grays Harbor » Thu May 21, 2009 10:43 am

Kinda pointless, trying dead folk, ya think? Besides it being a colossal waste of time, money and effort, I mean to say.

leave that sort of thing for high school civics class.
Last edited by Grays Harbor on Thu May 21, 2009 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Milks Empire
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Milks Empire » Thu May 21, 2009 10:46 am

He's dead. If Little Nicky is any indication, he's in Hell having Satan shove a pineapple sideways up his crack every afternoon at 4:00, all the while in a French maid's outfit. :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Milks Empire on Thu May 21, 2009 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Charlotte Ryberg
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Thu May 21, 2009 10:50 am

It doesn't seem logical. But I know that Oliver Cromwell was posthumously executed in 1661 when the monarchy was restored, which is similar to crime and punishment for the dead.

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Northwest Slobovia
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Thu May 21, 2009 10:50 am

Galloism wrote:OI responded that, in the eyes of the law, he is presumed innocent since he was never proven guilty in court. However, history tells a different story.

(emphasis added)

You hit the nail on the head the first time: free people want to be presumed innocent as a matter of law, to prevent the gov't from abusing its power. We don't use the same standards for other kinds of judgement. In any case, most free states have laws preventing trials in absentia -- good luck getting Hitler back from Hell! :)
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Galloism
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Galloism » Thu May 21, 2009 10:51 am

Charlotte Ryberg wrote:It doesn't seem logical. But I know that Oliver Cromwell was posthumously executed in 1661 when the monarchy was restored, which is similar to crime and punishment for the dead.


????

How does that work?
Last edited by Galloism on Thu May 21, 2009 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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DrunkenDove
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby DrunkenDove » Thu May 21, 2009 11:14 am

Depends on the applications that the potential results would have. It would be a waste of time to try and prove that Hitler was indeed a very naughty boy but not if the court started hearing cases that might set precedent. For example, I know (mainly from watching "The life of David Gale") that the anti-death crowd are very frustrated that they cannot conclusively prove that innocents are executed, because an appeal against a conviction cannot take place post-mortem.
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Ravea
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Ravea » Thu May 21, 2009 11:22 am

Hasn't this been done before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
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Big Jim P
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Big Jim P » Thu May 21, 2009 11:45 am

By some human created rules, Hitler is innocent. By realitys law, he was responsible for the death of 6 million Jews, plus the soldiers killed in the war.

Should the dead be tried? Why? The verdict will only affect how their memories are treated (and then only vis-a-vis human created law) and not change the reality of anything they may have done one whit.

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Galloism
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Galloism » Thu May 21, 2009 11:46 am

Ravea wrote:Hasn't this been done before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod


That was one of the funniest things I ever read. :lol:
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Kryozerkia
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Kryozerkia » Thu May 21, 2009 11:55 am

There is no real point to putting the dead on trial. If they were to be proven guilty in a court of law, they would be unable to appreciate the consequences of their actions.
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Grays Harbor
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Grays Harbor » Thu May 21, 2009 1:49 pm

Kryozerkia wrote:There is no real point to putting the dead on trial. If they were to be proven guilty in a court of law, they would be unable to appreciate the consequences of their actions.


I imagine any defense they would present would be somewhat less than lively as well
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Veblenia
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Veblenia » Thu May 21, 2009 8:58 pm

Considering that a key feature of a proper trial is the right of the defendant to appear in person and answer the charges, I don't see how any trial of a dead person could be considered legitimate. It's the ultimate trial in absentia, and I think it would lend itself to the creation of kangaroo courts to posthumously villify anyone inconvenient to the prevailing mood of the day.

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Valipac
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Valipac » Thu May 21, 2009 9:24 pm

Depends on the severity. Should we try someone for petty theft after their death? No, that is a waste of the states resources and further hurts a grieving family. Should we try Hitler for the crimes he committed? Most certainly yes.
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Bears Armed
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Bears Armed » Fri May 22, 2009 2:35 am

Ravea wrote:Hasn't this been done before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

Damn, you beat me to it...

Galloism wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:It doesn't seem logical. But I know that Oliver Cromwell was posthumously executed in 1661 when the monarchy was restored, which is similar to crime and punishment for the dead.


????

How does that work?

They dug up his corpse, and decapitated & quartered it as they would have done had he been convicted of regicide before his death.
(Also, I think, they did the same to the corpse of at least one of his colleagues: Ireton, perhaps?)

Kryozerkia wrote:There is no real point to putting the dead on trial. If they were to be proven guilty in a court of law, they would be unable to appreciate the consequences of their actions.

Depending on the circumstances, there might be some cases in which a conviction would allow the victims of their crimes to obtain financial compensation from their estates...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Fri May 22, 2009 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Der Teutoniker
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Der Teutoniker » Fri May 22, 2009 2:46 am

Sionis Prioratus wrote:
Galloism wrote:Ok, in that other ridiculous thread there was a question about whether Hitler is innocent because he was never tried. (Yes, I Godwinned in the OP)

I responded that, in the eyes of the law, he is presumed innocent since he was never proven guilty in court. However, history tells a different story. The person I responded to then said that I said Hitler was innocent.

I have therefore decided to make a poll, because it's what I do. Should we let the dead have their day in court?


Regarding Hitler, the death penalty (today) would be... difficult to enforce.


And whats worse is that you know Hitler would make a martyr of himself. We can't give him the exposure. :P

Seriously, though, no, it's stupid. Hitler can be technically innocent, it's not like it actually makes any real difference in his legacy (or at least, it hasn't much seemed to). Trials are great, but if they're dead the dispensation of justice seems rather hindered.
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Valipac
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Valipac » Fri May 22, 2009 3:25 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Galloism wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:It doesn't seem logical. But I know that Oliver Cromwell was posthumously executed in 1661 when the monarchy was restored, which is similar to crime and punishment for the dead.


????

How does that work?

They dug up his corpse, and decapitated & quartered it as they would have done had he been convicted of regicide before his death.
(Also, I think, they did the same to the corpse of at least one of his colleagues: Ireton, perhaps?)


Ireton and Bradshaw. They were going to do the same to Pride, but his body was too decayed.
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Denfil
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Denfil » Fri May 22, 2009 4:10 am

But how can hitler be innocent? I know he was never tried but he commited genocide. there were witnesses like his right hand men. If there is something i left out or if i am mistaken please correct me.
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Galloism
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Galloism » Fri May 22, 2009 4:51 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Galloism wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:It doesn't seem logical. But I know that Oliver Cromwell was posthumously executed in 1661 when the monarchy was restored, which is similar to crime and punishment for the dead.


????

How does that work?

They dug up his corpse, and decapitated & quartered it as they would have done had he been convicted of regicide before his death.
(Also, I think, they did the same to the corpse of at least one of his colleagues: Ireton, perhaps?)


Image

That's hilarious, and makes no sense to boot.
Last edited by Galloism on Fri May 22, 2009 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Bluth Corporation
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Bluth Corporation » Fri May 22, 2009 7:19 am

Valipac wrote:Should we try Hitler for the crimes he committed? Most certainly yes.


Absolutely not. Hitler is as entitled to the opportunity to defend himself as anyone else is. Trying him after his death completely denies him that opportunity.

It's the same (very very good) reason charges were dropped against Kenneth Lay after he died--he hadn't been tried yet, so he wouldn't have had the opportunity to defend himself.
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Bluth Corporation
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Bluth Corporation » Fri May 22, 2009 7:20 am

Denfil wrote:But how can hitler be innocent? I know he was never tried but he commited genocide. there were witnesses like his right hand men. If there is something i left out or if i am mistaken please correct me.
:D


The legal presumption of innocence is just that--a presumption that may or may not be true but is only relevant in court.

The rest of us are entitled to judge him however we wish for own private purposes.
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Cameroi
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby Cameroi » Fri May 22, 2009 2:50 pm

really depends on the context. although i think mostly its not individuals so much that needs closer examination, but popular conclusions inspired by apparent results of positions they had taken.

i'm not so sure a court system would be the best place to examine such questions either.

but again, in some cases there might be serious benefits, possibly where much needed, in considering the possibility.
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United human countries
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Re: Should We Have Trials for the Dead?

Postby United human countries » Fri May 22, 2009 2:54 pm

What're you going to do, hang a skeleton?
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