Does Israel have the right to exist?

[Vitaphone Racing]

Egypt was ages ago. There has not been one cease fire with Palestine where the terrorist groups have not continued to build tunnels and fire rockets from over the border. There is no point listening to the please of a cease fire from Hamas as Hamas still preaches the death of Israel. The Hamas charter still preaches an Islamic state over Israeli territory.

Hamas abided by the recent ceasefire. Hamas opponents in Gaza did not.

Yes, because Hamas is a peace loving political party with Israel's best interests at heart. You say Hamas isn't responsible? I don't buy it. Just because it's an affiliated party doesn't mean Hamas' hands are clean. Hamas, along with Syria and Iran, continue to preach hatred and violence against Israel.

[Set the Unbound]

I am assuming you are conveniently forgetting how Israel attacked and invaded Egypt, Syria and Jordan during the 6 Day War? And I suppose you are going to justify massacres of Palestinian refugees in camps under Israeli guard?

Do your homework. The Six Day War was initiated as a suprise attack on Israel by the Arab states and not the other way around.

Sources of those massacres would be swell.

He has done his homework.

The Six Day War began with Nasser posturing, but no Arab soldiers crossing the border. Israel struck "preemptively", in the jargon of the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

And massacres?



http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-fisk180903.htm

[Distruzio]

Hey NS was wondering about your opinion about the creation of Israel. Should we support it in its struggle against its psychotic neighbors? Or should we condemn it for its actions in the name of national security (Territorial expansion and so on)?

I personally am against the creation of the state of Israel. I think that if the Jewish people should get a homeland of their own, where is the homeland of Pantheists/Pagans? We were oppressed as much if not more then the Jews. (There are more Jews around today then Pagans). However i do see why Israel has been so militaristic because it must defend itself to simply survive. This could have hardened the Israeli people. You thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Israel does not have the right to exist. We should not support it in its struggle. Nor should we condemn it for the actions it has taken. America is the last nation on earth to present itself as possessing a moral barometer.

[St George of England]

I am assuming you are conveniently forgetting how Israel attacked and invaded Egypt, Syria and Jordan during the 6 Day War? And I suppose you are going to justify massacres of Palestinian refugees in camps under Israeli guard?

Do your homework. The Six Day War was initiated as a suprise attack on Israel by the Arab states and not the other way around.

Sources of those massacres would be swell.

Err, think you might be mistaking the 6 Day War with Yon Kippur. Either that or you've been listening to CAMERA.

And as for massacres, well:
Qibya Massacre Led by future Israeli leader Ariel Sharon.
Sabra and Shatila Massacre The one I was referring to in my post. Israeli Defence Force troops transport Christian Lebanese militia to the camps, and fire illumination flares as the militia goes on a murderous rampage, killing up to 3,500 civilians. Leader of the militia troops, Elie Hobeika later becomes a member of the Israeli Parliament, and eventually apart of Cabinet.

Hamas abided by the recent ceasefire. Hamas opponents in Gaza did not.

Yes, because Hamas is a peace loving political party with Israel's best interests at heart. You say Hamas isn't responsible? I don't buy it. Just because it's an affiliated party doesn't mean Hamas' hands are clean. Hamas, along with Syria and Iran, continue to preach hatred and violence against Israel.

As opposed to several Israeli political parties, and NGOs in the US and elsewhere which continue to preach hatred and violence against Palestine and Islam as a whole.

Do not think one side is any better than the other.

[Vecherd]

Of course Israel has a right to exist.

[Scientific socks]

Do your homework. The Six Day War was initiated as a suprise attack on Israel by the Arab states and not the other way around.

Sources of those massacres would be swell.

He has done his homework.

The Six Day War began with Nasser posturing, but no Arab soldiers crossing the border. Israel struck "preemptively", in the jargon of the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

And massacres?



http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-fisk180903.htm

Yes after many previous terrorist/army attacks. The move by Egpyt to put its troops at the border gave Israel two options.
1 fight in Israel
2 fight in Egypt

Later an Egyptian judge Salah al-Hadidi reviewed the situation and said
"I can state that Egypt's political leadership called Israel to war. It clearly provoked Israel and forced it into a confrontation" (Michael Oren, Six Days of War, 310-11).

When many Arab nations surround you with troops and your oil supply is cut of it is sensible to assume war is approaching and the decision to waste your oil supply waiting or attack quickly needs to be made.

[St George of England]

IGNORE.

[St George of England]

SS, the fact remains that it was Israel who attacked Egypt, not the other way around like Vitaphone claimed.

[Scientific socks]

SS, the fact remains that it was Israel who attacked Egypt, not the other way around like Vitaphone claimed.

So a country that is surrounded be foreign forces, blocked from transporting fuel and had already suffered serious terrorist attacks from countries that continues to compile their forces in strategic attacking positions should wait? They already suffered through one geonocide and your wish for them would have just created another!

[St George of England]

I never said that. I just disputed Vita's claim that Israel did not start the 6 Day War, which it did.

Note that I didn't say whether it was right or not.

[Asrynia]

Okay, A.) Israel does not need to "protect" itself from anyone, because the "rockets" that Hamas has shot into Israel have the equivalent power of a firecracker. It is the Palestinians that require assistance and protection, because the Israelis have killed THOUSANDS of their people and continue to blow up their schools and buildings, kill mothers in front of their children, and steal their land from beneath their feet. Oh yes, Palestine is the big threat here, poor, poor Israel. What a strain on them it must be to have to blockade Palestine and block its people from receiving necessary medical aid, supplies, and food. How hard for them it must be to watch the Palestinians die and to go shoot Palestinian children for sport. Oh, how exhausted they must be from creating parodies to the flotilla raid and the killing of passengers onboard. Oh yes, poor, poor Israel, my heart bleeds for you.

B.) No, Israel should not exist. It was bad enough in the first place that Palestinian land was taken and given to the Israelis, but the fact that they now continue to expand and encroach upon Palestinian land is completely and utterly appalling. Palestine can no longer even be called a country nor begin to form one from the damage that Israelhas caused and all the land that they have taken. i.e. map --->http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/IMG/jpg/two_state_solution_map.jpg
They have violated so many international laws, and yet what has anyone done to stop it? Everyone stands by and lets Israel provide weak reasoning as to how they have done nothing wrong at all and that it is Palestine that is the threat - and the world swallows it and moves on. Good job world, especially you America, bravo.

[St George of England]

Okay, A.) Israel does not need to "protect" itself from anyone, because the "rockets" that Hamas has shot into Israel have the equivalent power of a firecracker. It is the Palestinians that require assistance and protection, because the Israelis have killed THOUSANDS of their people and continue to blow up their schools and buildings, kill mothers in front of their children, and steal their land from beneath their feet. Oh yes, Palestine is the big threat here, poor, poor Israel. What a strain on them it must be to have to blockade Palestine and block its people from receiving necessary medical aid, supplies, and food. How hard for them it must be to watch the Palestinians die and to go shoot Palestinian children for sport. Oh, how exhausted they must be from creating parodies to the flotilla raid and the killing of passengers onboard. Oh yes, poor, poor Israel, my heart bleeds for you.

B.) No, Israel should not exist. It was bad enough in the first place that Palestinian land was taken and given to the Israelis, but the fact that they now continue to expand and encroach upon Palestinian land is completely and utterly appalling. Palestine can no longer even be called a country nor begin to form one from the damage that Israelhas caused and all the land that they have taken. i.e. map --->http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/IMG/jpg/two_state_solution_map.jpg
They have violated so many international laws, and yet what has anyone done to stop it? Everyone stands by and lets Israel provide weak reasoning as to how they have done nothing wrong at all and that it is Palestine that is the threat - and the world swallows it and moves on. Good job world, especially you America, bravo.

As much as I might support Palestine, your post is lacking, sadly, in facts.
1) The rockets do not, as you claim, "have the equivalent power of a firecracker". That would make fatalities much lower than they are.
2) The blockade was ended some time ago.
3) The raid on the blockade is still a source of debate and it still hasn't been definitively proven that the ship where people died on a) didn't have any weapons on and b) didn't fire first. It's disputed. I support the view that both were at fault.
4) Israel should exist. That is a fact. International law, which you invoke to criticise Israel whilst not mentioning that anti-Israel states also break it, states that Israel is a sovereign nation. It exists, and should exist. Just as Palestine exists and should exist.

[Dododecapod]

Asrynia, you're not getting a very important point: Palestine has no friends.
It's got a bunch of nations around it that are USING Palestine and it's people to make Israel look bad. But no one who will stand up and say "stop hammering our buddy or we'll get involved".
Israel has friends. USA, UK, some of the other European states. They may get annoyed at Israel; may argue with them; may even yell at them in the UN from time to time. But when it all happens and somebody throws down, watch the weapons and dough roll in on US transports.
Righteousness means nothing. Being the victim, means nothing. Do you have big friends who have your back? That means EVERYTHING.

[Pafghanistan]

You mean Arab armies crossed the borders first in 1973. Israeli armies crossed the border first and attacked first in 1956, 1967, 1978, 1982 and 2006? 1948 was very mutual. And of course, innumerable border incidents were precipitated between the major wars by all sides.

Have you ever considered the fact that Israel is literally 40 miles wide (65km) and cant afford to wait for tank or bombs to cross the border? Compared to Syria, Jordan, and Egypt which are HUGE. People always forget that Israel and the Falsestinians do not exist in a vacuum.
http://www.bicom.org.uk/files/Israel%20and%20the%20surrounding%20region_large.PNG

I suppose you are going to justify Israel being used as a sniping platform by settlers

What sniping? The Arabs have the snipers. Constantly shooting at cars that are peacefully driving around or shooting into Jewish towns.

when half of Palestine was given to Israel as an appeasement?

There was no Palestine to give. There was a slab of Ottoman territory the British arbitrarily decided to call Palestine. They then cut off 77% to give to the Arabs. After that, they restricted Jewish immigration to the remaining 23% and allowed unlimited Arab immigration. Then, the remaining 23% was cut up again, roughly in half, to split between Arabs and Jews. The Jews received a smattering of land, half of which was desert. But the deal never went thru. People forget this. The partition was never accepted. Israel declared independence and after a war, an armistice was forced on the two parties and ridiculous, indefensible battle lines from 1949 are the borders today insisted by the morons of the world, who think the Arabs somehow need more land than they already have.

And why is that? Please explain.

Because they have one already, had a second opportunity, and lost their right to one with their incessant violence. They also have no interest in a state, only destroying another state.

You mean Hamas has no interest. That doesn't mean you go around claiming Palestinians are dangerous and fighting back.

[Asrynia]

Okay, A.) Israel does not need to "protect" itself from anyone, because the "rockets" that Hamas has shot into Israel have the equivalent power of a firecracker. It is the Palestinians that require assistance and protection, because the Israelis have killed THOUSANDS of their people and continue to blow up their schools and buildings, kill mothers in front of their children, and steal their land from beneath their feet. Oh yes, Palestine is the big threat here, poor, poor Israel. What a strain on them it must be to have to blockade Palestine and block its people from receiving necessary medical aid, supplies, and food. How hard for them it must be to watch the Palestinians die and to go shoot Palestinian children for sport. Oh, how exhausted they must be from creating parodies to the flotilla raid and the killing of passengers onboard. Oh yes, poor, poor Israel, my heart bleeds for you.

B.) No, Israel should not exist. It was bad enough in the first place that Palestinian land was taken and given to the Israelis, but the fact that they now continue to expand and encroach upon Palestinian land is completely and utterly appalling. Palestine can no longer even be called a country nor begin to form one from the damage that Israelhas caused and all the land that they have taken. i.e. map --->http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/IMG/jpg/two_state_solution_map.jpg
They have violated so many international laws, and yet what has anyone done to stop it? Everyone stands by and lets Israel provide weak reasoning as to how they have done nothing wrong at all and that it is Palestine that is the threat - and the world swallows it and moves on. Good job world, especially you America, bravo.

As much as I might support Palestine, your post is lacking, sadly, in facts.
1) The rockets do not, as you claim, "have the equivalent power of a firecracker". That would make fatalities much lower than they are.
2) The blockade was ended some time ago.
3) The raid on the blockade is still a source of debate and it still hasn't been definitively proven that the ship where people died on a) didn't have any weapons on and b) didn't fire first. It's disputed. I support the view that both were at fault.
4) Israel should exist. That is a fact. International law, which you invoke to criticise Israel whilst not mentioning that anti-Israel states also break it, states that Israel is a sovereign nation. It exists, and should exist. Just as Palestine exists and should exist.

As is yours my friend.
1) The fatalities on Israel's side are tantamount to nothing in comparison to what they claim to be suffering. The fatalities they suffer (which are few and far between) are typically a result of mobbing.
2) Wrong. If you are believing what Tony Blair has to say, then sure, everything is sunshine and daisies. If you had the first hand accounts of what is actually going on, through the political bullshit, you would know that no, in fact the blockades are very much still around Gaza and that they are still very much restricting the basic human rights of the Palestinians.
3) The flotilla was full of civilians. What is there to debate. Israel is out for its own gain and of course will keep saying until they are blue in the face that they had no other choice but to kill those civilians. And unless activists bringing aide to Gaza with the intent of solely assisting them and not getting involved with the Israelis causes them to be at fault for the Israeli-initiated attack, I would very much beg to differ.
4) By Israel not existing I more or less meant that it should not exist as it does now. I am a practising Jew, yet everything that the Israelis have done goes against Jewish law and the Torah. And Palestine does not exist any longer in the sense of a nation, because of what Israel has done to it. It can no longer even be a nation because of all the illegal settlements. So please tell me where its rights lie in regards to this, because as I see it, they have been stripped away.

@Dododecapod: Clearly, because if we were going by righteousness or anything at all using the basest of moral values, we would all be behind Palestine.

[Pafghanistan]

Okay, A.) Israel does not need to "protect" itself from anyone, because the "rockets" that Hamas has shot into Israel have the equivalent power of a firecracker. It is the Palestinians that require assistance and protection, because the Israelis have killed THOUSANDS of their people and continue to blow up their schools and buildings, kill mothers in front of their children, and steal their land from beneath their feet. Oh yes, Palestine is the big threat here, poor, poor Israel. What a strain on them it must be to have to blockade Palestine and block its people from receiving necessary medical aid, supplies, and food. How hard for them it must be to watch the Palestinians die and to go shoot Palestinian children for sport. Oh, how exhausted they must be from creating parodies to the flotilla raid and the killing of passengers onboard. Oh yes, poor, poor Israel, my heart bleeds for you.

B.) No, Israel should not exist. It was bad enough in the first place that Palestinian land was taken and given to the Israelis, but the fact that they now continue to expand and encroach upon Palestinian land is completely and utterly appalling. Palestine can no longer even be called a country nor begin to form one from the damage that Israelhas caused and all the land that they have taken. i.e. map --->http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/IMG/jpg/two_state_solution_map.jpg
They have violated so many international laws, and yet what has anyone done to stop it? Everyone stands by and lets Israel provide weak reasoning as to how they have done nothing wrong at all and that it is Palestine that is the threat - and the world swallows it and moves on. Good job world, especially you America, bravo.

As much as I might support Palestine, your post is lacking, sadly, in facts.
1) The rockets do not, as you claim, "have the equivalent power of a firecracker". That would make fatalities much lower than they are.
2) The blockade was ended some time ago.
3) The raid on the blockade is still a source of debate and it still hasn't been definitively proven that the ship where people died on a) didn't have any weapons on and b) didn't fire first. It's disputed. I support the view that both were at fault.
4) Israel should exist. That is a fact. International law, which you invoke to criticise Israel whilst not mentioning that anti-Israel states also break it, states that Israel is a sovereign nation. It exists, and should exist. Just as Palestine exists and should exist.

It was also proven that the Israeli Commandos on the ship were using special equipment which would be used for special operations. Why? Because the commandos were prepared to be attacked.

[Izarius]

Of course Israel has a right to exist.

(Image)

Please tell me that's not a real picture.

[Tmutarakhan]

The Six Day War began with Nasser posturing, but no Arab soldiers crossing the border.

Shelling ships in international waters was an act of war. Egypt was not, obviously, expecting such a massive response, but that was their bad.

[Terrasricas]

It wasn't created from "stolen" land at all. As mandate holder, Britain had the right to divide and apportion the land as they saw fit. They did. It was all quite legal under all applicable laws.

And as Palestine was created more recently there could be an argument that Palestine stole land. I guess Terrasricas is in favour of creating Jewish refuguees again in a similar scenario to the holocaust which many of Israels enemies deny. If Israel should be fired upon for existing at the moment there will never be any peace as long as a Jewish person exists in the middle east. Palestine was been quite successful in removing all Jews from its borders.

I'm not an antisemite, it just makes no sense to take someone's land and claim it as your own, regardless of your religion. If anything, there should be a Jewish homeland in Germany, where the Holocaust came from.

[Vecherd]

Of course Israel has a right to exist.

(Image)

Please tell me that's not a real picture.

It is, The link to the French EU page it came from is old and sadly doesnt work, but you can look it up.

[St George of England]

As much as I might support Palestine, your post is lacking, sadly, in facts.
1) The rockets do not, as you claim, "have the equivalent power of a firecracker". That would make fatalities much lower than they are.
2) The blockade was ended some time ago.
3) The raid on the blockade is still a source of debate and it still hasn't been definitively proven that the ship where people died on a) didn't have any weapons on and b) didn't fire first. It's disputed. I support the view that both were at fault.
4) Israel should exist. That is a fact. International law, which you invoke to criticise Israel whilst not mentioning that anti-Israel states also break it, states that Israel is a sovereign nation. It exists, and should exist. Just as Palestine exists and should exist.

As is yours my friend.
1) The fatalities on Israel's side are tantamount to nothing in comparison to what they claim to be suffering. The fatalities they suffer (which are few and far between) are typically a result of mobbing.
2) Wrong. If you are believing what Tony Blair has to say, then sure, everything is sunshine and daisies. If you had the first hand accounts of what is actually going on, through the political bullshit, you would know that no, in fact the blockades are very much still around Gaza and that they are still very much restricting the basic human rights of the Palestinians.
3) The flotilla was full of civilians. What is there to debate. Israel is out for its own gain and of course will keep saying until they are blue in the face that they had no other choice but to kill those civilians. And unless activists bringing aide to Gaza with the intent of solely assisting them and not getting involved with the Israelis causes them to be at fault for the Israeli-initiated attack, I would very much beg to differ.
4) By Israel not existing I more or less meant that it should not exist as it does now. I am a practising Jew, yet everything that the Israelis have done goes against Jewish law and the Torah. And Palestine does not exist any longer in the sense of a nation, because of what Israel has done to it. It can no longer even be a nation because of all the illegal settlements. So please tell me where its rights lie in regards to this, because as I see it, they have been stripped away.

@Dododecapod: Clearly, because if we were going by righteousness or anything at all using the basest of moral values, we would all be behind Palestine.

1) But it happens. You can't deny the attacks don't happen, and you can't deny that they don't kill.
2) Please, provide some first hand accounts. I will admit to have seeing reports that the blockade has ended, but a casual 5 minute search seems to suggest otherwise.
3) What there is to debate is whether the civilians on the third ship opened fire on the IDF. What there is to debate is why the third ship didn't surrender peacefully like the others. What there is to debate is whether reports of the third ship being full of weapons are true. Until all these questions are answered, then the disputed 'facts' remain that, disputed.
4) Palestine is legally considered a 'country' by the US and others. See here for the confusing PDF version, but I'll quote the wiki page entitled Political Status of West Bank and Gaza Strip:

In US legal parlance the term "Country" is used for any political entity known as a nation. The US granted a request from the Palestinian National Authority for recognition of the West Bank and Gaza as a Country in view of developments including the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements. In a letter dated January 13, 1997, the Department of State advised the other agencies of the Executive branch that it considered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to be one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes.

Furthermore, Israeli settlements inside the Gaza Strip were forcible evacuated by the IDF in 2005 under the Disengagement Plan proposed by, of all people, Ariel Sharon. Perhaps showing the same nuance that got him into office, Sharon, it seems, saw the need for 'Disengagement' from Gaza and WB. Note that this does not absolve him from crimes he may or may not have committed prior to taking office, and whilst in office. It is only since Hamas took power in Gaza (note that they had only won legislative elections, not executive, in Gaza) that Israel's belligerence towards the Gaza Strip has increased again.

The WB is another story, however, 42% of the West Bank is governed by the Fatah-led PLO. The rest, (quoting directly from the wiki article on the Status of West Bank and Gaza Strip) 'is administered directly by Israel'. This is because, partially, of the al-Aqsa Intifada that started in 2000, which derailed the 1999-started talks between the PLO and Israel on the permanent status of Gaza and the West Bank. Note that, throughout the 90s, a series of agreements was signed that transfered power, or provided for the transfer of power, from Israel, to the PLO for both the West Bank and Palestine.

Both sides have committed terrible crimes and done terrible acts in this conflict. Both sides have violated treaties, laws and ceasefires. And both sides need to recognise that they are in the proverbial glass house on this issue. Israel is no less guilty than Palestine. Palestine is no less guilty than Israel. And as soon as those who participate in the Israel-Palestine Debate both inside and outside the Levant accept this, the sooner progress towards a lasting peace agreement can be made.

This juvenile, childish finger-pointing and 'u ded dis' bullshit doesn't help anyone. And the longer it goes on, the more people die.

[Geniasis]

Yes, because Hamas is a peace loving political party with Israel's best interests at heart.

Giant fucking strawman.

No, I mean his argument. I know you're disappointed. If I saw two giant strawmen fucking, I'd probably watch too.

[Quavv]

People need to stop messing with Isreal. They have just as much of a right to exist as any other nation, probably more so sense they are God's chosen people.

[Set the Unbound]

As is yours my friend.
1) The fatalities on Israel's side are tantamount to nothing in comparison to what they claim to be suffering. The fatalities they suffer (which are few and far between) are typically a result of mobbing.
2) Wrong. If you are believing what Tony Blair has to say, then sure, everything is sunshine and daisies. If you had the first hand accounts of what is actually going on, through the political bullshit, you would know that no, in fact the blockades are very much still around Gaza and that they are still very much restricting the basic human rights of the Palestinians.
3) The flotilla was full of civilians. What is there to debate. Israel is out for its own gain and of course will keep saying until they are blue in the face that they had no other choice but to kill those civilians. And unless activists bringing aide to Gaza with the intent of solely assisting them and not getting involved with the Israelis causes them to be at fault for the Israeli-initiated attack, I would very much beg to differ.
4) By Israel not existing I more or less meant that it should not exist as it does now. I am a practising Jew, yet everything that the Israelis have done goes against Jewish law and the Torah. And Palestine does not exist any longer in the sense of a nation, because of what Israel has done to it. It can no longer even be a nation because of all the illegal settlements. So please tell me where its rights lie in regards to this, because as I see it, they have been stripped away.

@Dododecapod: Clearly, because if we were going by righteousness or anything at all using the basest of moral values, we would all be behind Palestine.

1) But it happens. You can't deny the attacks don't happen, and you can't deny that they don't kill.
2) Please, provide some first hand accounts. I will admit to have seeing reports that the blockade has ended, but a casual 5 minute search seems to suggest otherwise.
3) What there is to debate is whether the civilians on the third ship opened fire on the IDF. What there is to debate is why the third ship didn't surrender peacefully like the others. What there is to debate is whether reports of the third ship being full of weapons are true. Until all these questions are answered, then the disputed 'facts' remain that, disputed.
4) Palestine is legally considered a 'country' by the US and others. See here for the confusing PDF version, but I'll quote the wiki page entitled Political Status of West Bank and Gaza Strip:

In US legal parlance the term "Country" is used for any political entity known as a nation. The US granted a request from the Palestinian National Authority for recognition of the West Bank and Gaza as a Country in view of developments including the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements. In a letter dated January 13, 1997, the Department of State advised the other agencies of the Executive branch that it considered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to be one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes.

Furthermore, Israeli settlements inside the Gaza Strip were forcible evacuated by the IDF in 2005 under the Disengagement Plan proposed by, of all people, Ariel Sharon. Perhaps showing the same nuance that got him into office, Sharon, it seems, saw the need for 'Disengagement' from Gaza and WB. Note that this does not absolve him from crimes he may or may not have committed prior to taking office, and whilst in office. It is only since Hamas took power in Gaza (note that they had only won legislative elections, not executive, in Gaza) that Israel's belligerence towards the Gaza Strip has increased again.

The WB is another story, however, 42% of the West Bank is governed by the Fatah-led PLO. The rest, (quoting directly from the wiki article on the Status of West Bank and Gaza Strip) 'is administered directly by Israel'. This is because, partially, of the al-Aqsa Intifada that started in 2000, which derailed the 1999-started talks between the PLO and Israel on the permanent status of Gaza and the West Bank. Note that, throughout the 90s, a series of agreements was signed that transfered power, or provided for the transfer of power, from Israel, to the PLO for both the West Bank and Palestine.

Both sides have committed terrible crimes and done terrible acts in this conflict. Both sides have violated treaties, laws and ceasefires. And both sides need to recognise that they are in the proverbial glass house on this issue. Israel is no less guilty than Palestine. Palestine is no less guilty than Israel. And as soon as those who participate in the Israel-Palestine Debate both inside and outside the Levant accept this, the sooner progress towards a lasting peace agreement can be made.

This juvenile, childish finger-pointing and 'u ded dis' bullshit doesn't help anyone. And the longer it goes on, the more people die.

Agree on all points.

I think this thread has covered everything, and reached the age of retirement.

[Revolutionarily]

Yes.

i couldn't tell by the flag