Taxes on Churches?

[Tekania]

Churches do not "not need to deal with taxation at all". They merely do not have to pay taxes upon their "income" like most other charities. Most churches are in fact writing checks to the IRS and their state's Dept. of Taxation.

Most organizations acquire 501(c)(3) tax exemption by filing IRS Form 1023. The form must be accompanied by a $850 filing fee if the yearly gross receipts for the organization are expected to average $10,000 or more.[12][13] If yearly gross receipts are expected to average less than $10,000, the filing fee is reduced to $400.[12][13] There are some classes of organizations that automatically are treated as tax exempt under 501(c)(3), without the need to file Form 1023:

Churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches[14]Organizations that are not private foundations and that have gross receipts that normally are not more than $5,000[15]

Yes, they enjoy automatic exemption status on their income... Doesn't seem to have any bearing on what I said. Merely because an organizations income is "exempt" doesn't mean it has no tax dealing with taxation, merely means that it's own income is exempt from general tax upon income. Is there some other random wikipedia article you would like to copy/paste spam from?

[Conserative Morality]

Yes, they enjoy automatic exemption status on their income... Doesn't seem to have any bearing on what I said. Merely because an organizations income is "exempt" doesn't mean it has no tax dealing with taxation, merely means that it's own income is exempt from general tax upon income. Is there some other random wikipedia article you would like to copy/paste spam from?

Yes, it's own income is exempt from income tax. And thus any attempts to attack this bill for taxing churches is absolutely ridiculous, as they already do so with taxes not related to income taxes (Though they certainly should pay). Thank you for proving my point.

[New York - New Jersey]

I was a local church pastor for 20 years.

I served nine churches I served (usually in yoked parishes) could have survived taxation, not even the huge one downtown that took up a whole city block.

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Tax my current local church and you destroy the thrift shop, the food pantry, the heating oil program, as well as organized relief crews for Haiti and Kenya.

No, these things will not continue after you kill us with taxation. And you will not pick up the slack, will you, with new tax-supported programs? Of course not.

Mayor Brian Stratton is already trying to tax churches in Schenectady NY, as well as fire companies and all other nonprofits.

May he rot in hell.

Where I live we have (volunteer & government) secular organisation's that do all of this, so yes these thing's will continue without the assistance of local churches and at least people of all faith's or lack thereof are assisted. Many (not all) of the local churches and synagogue's only help their own and do not extend their assistance to people who do not share their faith. I would much rather provide tax exempt status to a secular organisation that helps everyone without any pressure to share their beliefs then a group that helps only their own or provide service but expects you to learn about and share their religious beliefs in exchange.

[Tekania]

Yes, they enjoy automatic exemption status on their income... Doesn't seem to have any bearing on what I said. Merely because an organizations income is "exempt" doesn't mean it has no tax dealing with taxation, merely means that it's own income is exempt from general tax upon income. Is there some other random wikipedia article you would like to copy/paste spam from?

Yes, it's own income is exempt from income tax. And thus any attempts to attack this bill for taxing churches is absolutely ridiculous, as they already do so with taxes not related to income taxes (Though they certainly should pay). Thank you for proving my point.

No, I've proved my own point.

[Sarzonia]

If Churches make political contributions, they should be taxed like any non-profit.

[Intangelon]

If they're going to tell people how to vote, then tax the living fuck out of churches. Let them pay their admission like everyone else.

[Rolamec]

The legal mind is such a dull one.

Meh. Non-lawyers think accuracy about law is dull. They'd rather treat opinions as facts, when it is much more interesting -- although requires more effort -- to discuss opinions based on accurate facts.

Also, if law is so dull, don't argue about it or at least argue only about what it should be and not what it is. The "legal mind" is perfectly capable of distinguishing between the two and discussing either. It appears that other minds are the dull ones that confuse these categories and chase their own mental tails.

The law is cold and frigid, inflexible and unmoving. At times this can be a great thing, others it can be destructive. Arresting teenagers for sexting, the numerous age of consent issues (where say a 15 year old has sex with a 17 year old guy), throwing down heavy fines and oppressive jail sentences for those who download music illegally -who hasn't?

The point is when you're talking to people, or giving a speech, nobody cares about civil codes, technicalities, and dull nature of the law...Opinions and ideals, especially vague ones, are stronger and more meaningful. I am strangely reminded of something Chris Matthews pointed out during the 2004 campaign, John Kerry walks into a diner and greets a person sitting at a booth, he immediately begins to talk about the issues. George Bush walks into a diner, greets the person, and begins talking not about social security reform or the war in Iraq, but of them, their kid (Does he play baseball? How old? Etc.).

I seem to be going off track slightly. My point is NSG isn't a courtroom, the majority of us aren't lawyers, and whether you care to admit it or not, rhetoric, regardless of how opinionated, without facts or valid sources, is considerably stronger and always will be.

[Conserative Morality]

The law is cold and frigid, inflexible and unmoving. At times this can be a great thing, others it can be destructive. Arresting teenagers for sexting, the numerous age of consent issues (where say a 15 year old has sex with a 17 year old guy), throwing down heavy fines and oppressive jail sentences for those who download music illegally -who hasn't?

*raises hand slowly*

[Dusty Angels]

I think it is a good idea to put tax on churches. Just because the church consists of priests and nuns etc. that doesn't mean they shouldn't pay tax. If all CITIZENS must pay tax -- that means ALL citizens. I can't see the reason why the church shouldn't pay tax if us Christians/Atheists/Agnostics etc. should.

I don't think a priest or nun has an income which you can tax. They live on donations, everything in their possession is on loan.

Now if we're talking Protestant television Evangelist who books shows in megachurches and go on TV. They have a source of revenue which can and should be taxed since it is not based off donations/loans.

You're right they do live on donations pretty much, my mistake ^^

[Iuuvic]

I don't think a priest or nun has an income which you can tax. They live on donations, everything in their possession is on loan.

Now if we're talking Protestant television Evangelist who books shows in megachurches and go on TV. They have a source of revenue which can and should be taxed since it is not based off donations/loans.

You're right they do live on donations pretty much, my mistake ^^

Regardless, the orginization should be taxed based on how they spend their donations not how they get them. If they want to stay tax exempt its as easy as using to money only to help others and keep their churches afloat. Hosting political fundraisers and channeling money to lobbiests is not where a church should be spending its money.

[GeneralHaNor]

Actually I'm more annoyed by the existance of a driveway tax to begin with
How many times I use my own driveway is none of the states damm business, I sure as hell wouldn't pay 72 dollars a year just to park in front of my own house

Before you statists get on my nuts, is the state responsible for fixing my driveway?, no?
then they have no right to charge me for it's use.

The state is, however, responsible for ensuring that the road leading to/from your driveway is driveable, and I believe that driveway taxes are typically used to fund road maintenance. Given that a driveway tax is as reasonable a measure of road usage as any other I can think of (other than fuel excises, but those impinge on Big Oil and are therefore eeeeeeeeeebil according to the GOP), why not levy them to maintain the road networks?

Because I'll be dammed if you charge me a usage fee, to use my own driveway, if your gonna fund road maintenance, make it a road maintenance tax. if you need to measure road usage in general, start checking the odometer on cars every year they come in for new tags.

Actually, in my perspective all taxes are "eeeeeeeeeebil" possibly even more horrible an offense then purposely misspelling words to make your opponents position appear stupid.

Oh and the Fuel Excise....I already can't afford to drive to work as it currently sits. If fuel were taxed above and beyond what it currently is. I would have to sell my car, to pay for gas.....

[GeneralHaNor]

Actually I'm more annoyed by the existance of a driveway tax to begin with
How many times I use my own driveway is none of the states damm business, I sure as hell wouldn't pay 72 dollars a year just to park in front of my own house

Before you statists get on my nuts, is the state responsible for fixing my driveway?, no?
then they have no right to charge me for it's use.

I'm a "statist" or at least so I've been told and I agree with you 100%.

Then we have common ground.
and you might have uncommon ground, with other statists, but statists are pretty much a rainbow coalition anyways

[GeneralHaNor]

A sensible atheist on NSG? Quick kids, grab the camera!

Excuse me?

He's correct
Sensible Atheists are a rarity here. Bottle is the norm, not the exception.

[GeneralHaNor]

The law is cold and frigid, inflexible and unmoving. At times this can be a great thing, others it can be destructive. Arresting teenagers for sexting, the numerous age of consent issues (where say a 15 year old has sex with a 17 year old guy), throwing down heavy fines and oppressive jail sentences for those who download music illegally -who hasn't?

*raises hand slowly*

You are an exception, a fairly rare exception

It's said that the average person commits three federal felonies a day.

[Wamitoria]

*raises hand slowly*

You are an exception, a fairly rare exception

It's said that the average person commits three federal felonies a day.

Lemme guess; the crimes are arson, murder, and jaywalking.

[Iuuvic]

Excuse me?

He's correct
Sensible Atheists are a rarity here. Bottle is the norm, not the exception.

Most people here that claim to be just atheists are more of antitheists or antireligous really. However most the religous here tend to be extreme as well.

[Bottle]

Excuse me?

He's correct
Sensible Atheists are a rarity here. Bottle is the norm, not the exception.

On this much we agree:

Most of the atheists around this forum fit GeneralHaNor's definition of "sensible." I am proud to be an exception.

[Bottle]

I don't believe they should be treated with contempt. Why should they be treated with contempt?

That's a big hijack from this topic, to be honest, and I'd rather not do that. If you wanted to make a fresh thread to discuss whether religious beliefs should be viewed with contempt, that would be fine, I just don't want to tug this topic too far off.

Oppression includes preference of one kind of organization or people over another through unfair and burdensome taxes. Like the Ottoman Empire and their positions on Jews and Christians. A little oppression is still oppression, and I don't like oppression fueled on nothing but petty vengeance and disagreements in opinion.

Well, first off I definitely don't agree that unequal taxation is necessarily unfair. That's a whole section of economic debate, after all! Flat taxes, progressive taxes, tax breaks for people who are caring for children, tax breaks for people who give to charity, etc and so forth...there's forms of inequality in taxation that I think you would probably agree is fair, reasonable, productive, or generally good.

Second, I don't think that unequal taxation can always be equated to oppression. For instance, one might argue that it is unfair for a married couple who have five children to be getting tax breaks due to their marital status and their children, but I don't think anybody is going to buy it if you try to argue that unmarried, childless people are "oppressed" due to this inequality of taxation.

Third, I don't think it's reasonable to say that I want to tax religions based on "nothing but petty vengeance and disagreements in opinion." There are plenty of fact-based reasons why it would be good to tax religious organizations at or above the same rate as other organizations. (Revenue for the communities being the biggest, of course.) You may feel that those reasons aren't sufficient, but that doesn't mean they do not exist.

[Kobeanare]

He's correct
Sensible Atheists are a rarity here. Bottle is the norm, not the exception.

On this much we agree:

Most of the atheists around this forum fit GeneralHaNor's definition of "sensible." I am proud to be an exception.

That's actually the opposite of what he said.

[ElectTheDead]

I think Churches should be taxed as well. They do too much damage to be allowed to do it for free. Alcohol isn't free, neither should organized religion.

[Hydesland]

The first question is, what secular organisation performs exactly the same function as a church, and is taxed? If you cannot come up with an answer to this question, you cannot say that exempting churches from taxation is extending preferential treatment based on the fact that one institution is non secular.

[Pope Joan]

I was a local church pastor for 20 years.

I served nine churches I served (usually in yoked parishes) could have survived taxation, not even the huge one downtown that took up a whole city block.

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Tax my current local church and you destroy the thrift shop, the food pantry, the heating oil program, as well as organized relief crews for Haiti and Kenya.

No, these things will not continue after you kill us with taxation. And you will not pick up the slack, will you, with new tax-supported programs? Of course not.

Mayor Brian Stratton is already trying to tax churches in Schenectady NY, as well as fire companies and all other nonprofits.

May he rot in hell.

Where I live we have (volunteer & government) secular organisation's that do all of this, so yes these thing's will continue without the assistance of local churches and at least people of all faith's or lack thereof are assisted. Many (not all) of the local churches and synagogue's only help their own and do not extend their assistance to people who do not share their faith. I would much rather provide tax exempt status to a secular organisation that helps everyone without any pressure to share their beliefs then a group that helps only their own or provide service but expects you to learn about and share their religious beliefs in exchange.

We are not pressuring anybody, excluding anybody, or questioning anybody's belief system, "where i Live".

You seem seem smug and self satisfied with your own morality.

I doubt your good works will last without any historic roots to sustain them.

In the meantime, leave us and our efforts alone.

[ElectTheDead]

I was a local church pastor for 20 years.

I served nine churches I served (usually in yoked parishes) could have survived taxation, not even the huge one downtown that took up a whole city block.

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Tax my current local church and you destroy the thrift shop, the food pantry, the heating oil program, as well as organized relief crews for Haiti and Kenya.

No, these things will not continue after you kill us with taxation. And you will not pick up the slack, will you, with new tax-supported programs? Of course not.

Mayor Brian Stratton is already trying to tax churches in Schenectady NY, as well as fire companies and all other nonprofits.

May he rot in hell.

If churches can afford to have everything embossed in silver and gold, they can survive taxation and still keep up with all their other services. Religion is drifting away from being about faith. They deserve to be taxed.

[Hydesland]

I never claimed that my opinions are consistent with American law. I'm simply pointing out that, for me, taxing the income of religious organizations at MERELY the same rate as others would be a compromise. I think the ideal case would be one in which religious organizations were pushed out of business through a combination of broad social and cultural change and aggressive taxation and regulation. But, as I said, I know this won't happen, so I'm willing to compromise.

No person could ever claim to be liberal or progressive and wish to engage in frankly repugnant and aggressive coercion against what is overwhelmingly voluntary communal associations, which often one of the main facets of their social interaction and contributions to their overall happiness. This is social engineering, this is the antipathy of being a progressive.

[Pope Joan]

I was a local church pastor for 20 years.

I served nine churches I served (usually in yoked parishes) could have survived taxation, not even the huge one downtown that took up a whole city block.

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Tax my current local church and you destroy the thrift shop, the food pantry, the heating oil program, as well as organized relief crews for Haiti and Kenya.

No, these things will not continue after you kill us with taxation. And you will not pick up the slack, will you, with new tax-supported programs? Of course not.

Mayor Brian Stratton is already trying to tax churches in Schenectady NY, as well as fire companies and all other nonprofits.

May he rot in hell.

If churches can afford to have everything embossed in silver and gold, they can survive taxation and still keep up with all their other services. Religion is drifting away from being about faith. They deserve to be taxed.

Come to Rockwell Falls Presbyterian, please. You will find no silver or gold. Our poor imitations are mere plastic and brass. But you will find people willing to listen if you want to talk, pay your heating bill, give you the shirt off their backs (one deacon just did so at the scene of an accident, its on video, it was below freezing) and we have a nice coffee hour with soup and sandwiches and occasionally cake.

And we discuss world issues, such as relating to hostile nonbelievers in a loving way.