Taxes on Churches?

[Underium]

Ok... So theya re taxing churches, which is not church and state seperate... What about the church refusing to legally marry two homosexual individuals, and if church and state are compeltely seperate then you cant arrest someone if they kill someone and say it was for church... Tax churches, of course, in my opinion, churches are just another bussiness.

[Cybach]

I think it is a good idea to put tax on churches. Just because the church consists of priests and nuns etc. that doesn't mean they shouldn't pay tax. If all CITIZENS must pay tax -- that means ALL citizens. I can't see the reason why the church shouldn't pay tax if us Christians/Atheists/Agnostics etc. should.

I don't think a priest or nun has an income which you can tax. They live on donations, everything in their possession is on loan.

Now if we're talking Protestant television Evangelist who books shows in megachurches and go on TV. They have a source of revenue which can and should be taxed since it is not based off donations/loans.

[Conserative Morality]

Sure, I don't mind my beloved Eastern Orthodox Church paying taxes. But, if that's the case; we are going to have a lobby as well, run priests for political office, and attempt to impose moral legislation which our particular church has been relatively silent about.

And if you try to do that, then I'll insist on forcing the Orthodox Church to perform same-sex marriages. After all, seperation of Church and State is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, blocking your little scheme, but entirely leaving the Church open to being treated as an EQUAL MEMBER of Society. After all, tax exemptions are Congress passing a law respecting an establishment of religion, I say we tear that down and treat the Church like any other organization.

And there's nothing you can do legally about that. So in any all-out fight between Secularism and Religion, Secularism wins in the US.

[Underium]

Sure, I don't mind my beloved Eastern Orthodox Church paying taxes. But, if that's the case; we are going to have a lobby as well, run priests for political office, and attempt to impose moral legislation which our particular church has been relatively silent about.

And if you try to do that, then I'll insist on forcing the Orthodox Church to perform same-sex marriages. After all, seperation of Church and State is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, blocking your little scheme, but entirely leaving the Church open to being treated as an EQUAL MEMBER of Society. After all, tax exemptions are Congress passing a law respecting an establishment of religion, I say we tear that down and treat the Church like any other organization.

And there's nothing you can do legally about that. So in any all-out fight between Secularism and Religion, Secularism wins in the US.

This^ I really cant add much onto that.

[Tekania]

Yep, there are three types of people:

1. Those who think that the separation of church and state means that government can't have a say in the church...
2. Those who think that the separation of church and state means that the church can't have a say in government...
and
3. Those who think the other two types had to have missed something in that phrase somewhere.

You missed the fourth type,

4. Those who think that the separation of church and state is mentioned in the Constitution.

It is, it's merely phrased as "respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

[Underium]

You missed the fourth type,

4. Those who think that the separation of church and state is mentioned in the Constitution.

It is, it's merely phrased as "respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

And respecting a establishent, does not mean not taxing it, churches get money, theya re not a non-profit organization, and dont claim they are because if that is so, where do they get the money to builkd new churches?

[Jesus Strippers]

You missed the fourth type,

4. Those who think that the separation of church and state is mentioned in the Constitution.

It is, it's merely phrased as "respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." Comes from the Bill of Rights, Amendment I. Either way, that's pretty clear cut.

[Underium]

It is, it's merely phrased as "respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." Comes from the Bill of Rights, Amendment I. Either way, that's pretty clear cut.

So you are saying no law affects church?

[Jesus Strippers]

It is, it's merely phrased as "respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

And respecting a establishent, does not mean not taxing it, churches get money, theya re not a non-profit organization, and dont claim they are because if that is so, where do they get the money to builkd new churches?

Non-profit - "an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals."

The church, in most cases, does not pocket any of the money.

[Jesus Strippers]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." Comes from the Bill of Rights, Amendment I. Either way, that's pretty clear cut.

So you are saying no law affects church?

No constitutional law directly affects churches.

[Underium]

So you are saying no law affects church?

No constitutional law directly affects churches.

Ok in that cas if i make my own church i can say that killing people is part of our worship and they couldnt do antyhing?

[Vecherd]

It shouldn't be taxes on churches!

..Not on anything else either of course.

[Jesus Strippers]

No constitutional law directly affects churches.

Ok in that cas if i make my own church i can say that killing people is part of our worship and they couldnt do antyhing?

Murder always has been, and always will be illegal.

[Underium]

It shouldn't be taxes on churches!

..Not on anything else either of course.

There should be!!! Anything that gets money from any source must be taxed, and as to churches being nonprofit then how do priests live with priest being their only job?

[New Palikir]

Considering America just gave out several hundred billion in tax cuts, still subsidizes oil companies, and has no emission fees, taxing non-profits seems like the best way to balance the budget.

[Jesus Strippers]

It shouldn't be taxes on churches!

..Not on anything else either of course.

There should be!!! Anything that gets money from any source must be taxed, and as to churches being nonprofit then how do priests live with priest being their only job?

In a non-profit organization, all of the workers get a paycheck. Then the remaining money, instead of being pocketed, is used to support the cause.

[Tekania]

It is, it's merely phrased as "respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

And respecting a establishent, does not mean not taxing it, churches get money, theya re not a non-profit organization, and dont claim they are because if that is so, where do they get the money to builkd new churches?

They get their money from donations, like most other non-profits.

[Pope Joan]

I was a local church pastor for 20 years.

I served nine churches I served (usually in yoked parishes) could have survived taxation, not even the huge one downtown that took up a whole city block.

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Tax my current local church and you destroy the thrift shop, the food pantry, the heating oil program, as well as organized relief crews for Haiti and Kenya.

No, these things will not continue after you kill us with taxation. And you will not pick up the slack, will you, with new tax-supported programs? Of course not.

Mayor Brian Stratton is already trying to tax churches in Schenectady NY, as well as fire companies and all other nonprofits.

May he rot in hell.

[Tekania]

And respecting a establishent, does not mean not taxing it, churches get money, theya re not a non-profit organization, and dont claim they are because if that is so, where do they get the money to builkd new churches?

Non-profit - "an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals."

The church, in most cases, does not pocket any of the money.

Indeed, like most non-profits, the money is used to build new buildings, donated to other organizations and to pay employees of the organization.... There is little practical difference between say PETA, the American Red Cross, the United Way and say the PCUSA other than the PCUSA as a religious organization enjoys an additional particular legal status due the special protection of religion enjoyed within our highest laws in the United States.

[Conserative Morality]

I was a local church pastor for 20 years.

I served nine churches I served (usually in yoked parishes) could have survived taxation, not even the huge one downtown that took up a whole city block.

The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Tax my current local church and you destroy the thrift shop, the food pantry, the heating oil program, as well as organized relief crews for Haiti and Kenya.

No, these things will not continue after you kill us with taxation. And you will not pick up the slack, will you, with new tax-supported programs? Of course not.

Mayor Brian Stratton is already trying to tax churches in Schenectady NY, as well as fire companies and all other nonprofits.

May he rot in hell.

Oh no, Churches are treated as equal members of society! How dare we not get exceptions from taxation and not have to factor such a variable into our budget just like anyone else! Please feel sorry for us!

[Tekania]

Oh no, Churches are treated as equal members of society! How dare we not get exceptions from taxation and not have to factor such a variable into our budget just like anyone else! Please feel sorry for us!

Everyone else doesn't have to factor such a variable into their budget. As such, your argument is tripe.

[Pope Joan]

To Tekania:
Right. Profit is not income or revenue, every organization whatsoever needs income or revenue.

Profit is revenue which is distributed to owners, such as partners or shareholders.

If revenue is put back into the operation and not distributed, it is not profit.

WE Americans are so hypnotized by the business model that we can no longer distinguish a nonprofit from a business.

Lester Salamon says a nonprofit uses volunteers, does not distribute income to owners, is organized, is independent of government or business, serves the good of the public, and does not unfairly enrich its managers.

I teach this stuff for a living.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... &q&f=false

http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Nonprofi ... 0879548010

David Hammack says that many if not most early nonprofits in the US were derived from churches and church related efforts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=slzyTX ... &q&f=false

[Conserative Morality]

Everyone else doesn't have to factor such a variable into their budget. As such, your argument is tripe.

Really? Please tell me what other organizations do not need to deal with taxation at all. Even Charities must deal with some taxes, though reduced.

[Tekania]

Everyone else doesn't have to factor such a variable into their budget. As such, your argument is tripe.

Really? Please tell me what other organizations do not need to deal with taxation at all. Even Charities must deal with some taxes, though reduced.

Churches do not "not need to deal with taxation at all". They merely do not have to pay taxes upon their "income" like most other charities. Most churches are in fact writing checks to the IRS and their state's Dept. of Taxation. So that's not much of an argument either.

[Conserative Morality]

Churches do not "not need to deal with taxation at all". They merely do not have to pay taxes upon their "income" like most other charities. Most churches are in fact writing checks to the IRS and their state's Dept. of Taxation.

Most organizations acquire 501(c)(3) tax exemption by filing IRS Form 1023. The form must be accompanied by a $850 filing fee if the yearly gross receipts for the organization are expected to average $10,000 or more.[12][13] If yearly gross receipts are expected to average less than $10,000, the filing fee is reduced to $400.[12][13] There are some classes of organizations that automatically are treated as tax exempt under 501(c)(3), without the need to file Form 1023:

Churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches[14]Organizations that are not private foundations and that have gross receipts that normally are not more than $5,000[15]