NATION

PASSWORD

Taxes on Churches?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Caninope » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:12 am

New Chalcedon wrote:
Caninope wrote:At no point have the acknowledged that property taxes on churches are unconstitutional. I went so far as to state that in the first post you quoted, IIRC. However, I noted that they acknowledged some very good arguments against them.

Also, I wasn't referring to the Church and State as brothers, per se, I was trying to use an analogy that was good enough for you, me, and other laymen reading this thread.


1) Fair enough; I apologise for the misreading. However (and I apologise if you've done so earlier in this thread) could you please provide me with some links to cases in which they did so?
2) And I was trying to (indirectly) highlight the fatal flaw in your analogy: your 'brothers' analogy implied a degree of intrinsic connection between the two which is simply not permitted under a doctrine of separation of church and state.

1. The most notable case where the Supreme Court acknowledged reasons not to tax churches is, AFAIK, Walz v Tax Commission.
Determining that the legislative purpose of tax exemption is not aimed at establishing, sponsoring, or supporting religion does not end the inquiry, however. We must also be sure that the end result -- the effect -- is not an excessive government entanglement with religion. The test is inescapably one of degree. Either course, taxation of churches or exemption, occasions some degree of involvement with religion. Elimination of exemption would tend to expand the involvement of government by giving rise to tax valuation of church property, tax liens, tax foreclosures, and the direct confrontations and conflicts that follow in the train of those legal processes.

Granting tax exemptions to churches necessarily operates to afford an indirect economic benefit, and also gives rise to some, but yet a lesser, involvement than taxing [p675] them.

2. Religion and the State do have a connection, because both gain their influence from the people, many of whom vote consistently with their beliefs, and go to a church that seems consistent with their ideology. Regardless, the Supreme Court has allowed government and the state to interact.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
The Pope States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 755
Founded: Jan 07, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pope States » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:17 am

Uncivil

User avatar
Kobeanare
Minister
 
Posts: 2767
Founded: Nov 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Kobeanare » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:00 pm

Cybach wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:No, it wouldn't.



Yes it would. The Church lies outside of the State. The State lies outside of the Church. That is the general agreement. Neither considers itself the superior of the other. Give unto Caesar what is Caesars, the Church does not involve itself in the political State affairs and the State stays completely out of the Churchs affairs. Taxing Church would abolish the separation of Church and State, since it would mean the State considers itself the owner of the Church. Which means they're no longer two separate entities.

Not according to the SCOTUS.

User avatar
Kobeanare
Minister
 
Posts: 2767
Founded: Nov 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Kobeanare » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:01 pm

Chazicaria wrote:
Bottle wrote:Very big charity organizations which use "donations" to build and stock golden palaces for their leaders. :lol2:

Or homes in Haiti for the poor...
Or hospitals...
Or food...

How do you build food?

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Caninope » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:04 pm

Kobeanare wrote:
Chazicaria wrote:Or homes in Haiti for the poor...
Or hospitals...
Or food...

How do you build food?

Very carefully.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
Jesus Strippers
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Dec 16, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jesus Strippers » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:52 pm

Bottle wrote:
Chazicaria wrote:Only the "Church" of $cientology should be taxed. Other religions, unless they are obviously in it soley for money, shouldn't be taxed because many, like the Catholic church, are very big charity organizations.

Very big charity organizations which use "donations" to build and stock golden palaces for their leaders. :lol2:

Look at the picture of the church in Mission. Does that look like a "stocked golden palace" to you?
"The purpose of the journey is its goal, the purpose of an Xcursion is the process."
Economic Left/Right: 7.85
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.66

User avatar
Bottle
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14985
Founded: Dec 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bottle » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:53 pm

Jesus Strippers wrote:
Bottle wrote:Very big charity organizations which use "donations" to build and stock golden palaces for their leaders. :lol2:

Look at the picture of the church in Mission. Does that look like a "stocked golden palace" to you?

Pssst: that's kind of the point.
"Until evolution happens like in pokemon I'll never accept your 'evidence'!" -Ifreann
"Well, excuuuuuuse me, feminist." -Ende

User avatar
Jesus Strippers
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Dec 16, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jesus Strippers » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:58 pm

Bottle wrote:
Jesus Strippers wrote:Look at the picture of the church in Mission. Does that look like a "stocked golden palace" to you?

Pssst: that's kind of the point.

it looks like a pretty humble structure to me.
"The purpose of the journey is its goal, the purpose of an Xcursion is the process."
Economic Left/Right: 7.85
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.66

User avatar
Bottle
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14985
Founded: Dec 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bottle » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:58 pm

Jesus Strippers wrote:
Bottle wrote:Pssst: that's kind of the point.

it looks like a pretty humble structure to me.

Yes, yes it does.

Again, that's kind of the point.
"Until evolution happens like in pokemon I'll never accept your 'evidence'!" -Ifreann
"Well, excuuuuuuse me, feminist." -Ende

User avatar
Hetnet
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Mar 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Hetnet » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:00 pm

a pretty humble structure

User avatar
Jesus Strippers
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Dec 16, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jesus Strippers » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:05 pm

Bottle wrote:
Jesus Strippers wrote:
it looks like a pretty humble structure to me.

Yes, yes it does.

Again, that's kind of the point.

i apologize. that went straight over my head.
"The purpose of the journey is its goal, the purpose of an Xcursion is the process."
Economic Left/Right: 7.85
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.66

User avatar
Sociobiology
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18396
Founded: Aug 18, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sociobiology » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:19 pm

I think we risk becoming the best informed society that has ever died of ignorance. ~Reuben Blades

I got quite annoyed after the Haiti earthquake. A baby was taken from the wreckage and people said it was a miracle. It would have been a miracle had God stopped the earthquake. More wonderful was that a load of evolved monkeys got together to save the life of a child that wasn't theirs. ~Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Jesus Strippers
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Dec 16, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jesus Strippers » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:21 pm

Sociobiology wrote:http://www.vaticanbank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vatican-bank.jpg

http://www.hyperborea.org/photos/full/e ... atican.jpg

look well funded to me.

also, they don't look like they are located in a certain Mission, Kansas.
"The purpose of the journey is its goal, the purpose of an Xcursion is the process."
Economic Left/Right: 7.85
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.66

User avatar
Banold
Envoy
 
Posts: 241
Founded: May 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Banold » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:22 pm

I want the state out of my faith, and my faith out of the state.

No compromise.

Income earned by religious or faith based organizations & institutions have to do with conscience, not income.

Yes there are people, mainly the Church of Scientology, who are making millions off their parishioners. Don't believe me? Google scientology donation rates...

However, this is due to the ignorance of most scientologists.

Catholic priests and Buddhist monks both take similar vows of poverty and must have only limited possessions.

Both rely on the laity for food, clothing, housing etc.

It's a matter of conscience, not of income.
Moral Compass: Progressive Neoliberal
-1.5 on Moral Order
-6 on Moral Rules
Political Compass: Right Libertarian
Economic Left/Right: 6.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72
Moral Compass for a Post-Industrial World: (32,-20)
New Progressive
Center for a State-less Society:
3% Economic Rightist | 41% Anarchist | 64% Anti-Militarist | 67% Socio-Cultural Liberal | 60% Civil Libertarian
Political Test: Liberal
Cosmopolitan 6% | Secular 46% | Visonary 4% | Anarchistic 23% | Capitalistic 53% | Pacifist 7% | Anthropocentric 21%

Pronounced like a contraction of the 2 English words: "Ban" + "Old" = Banold

User avatar
Wamitoria
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18852
Founded: Jun 28, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Wamitoria » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:30 pm

Banold wrote:I want the state out of my faith, and my faith out of the state.

No compromise.

Income earned by religious or faith based organizations & institutions have to do with conscience, not income.

Yes there are people, mainly the Church of Scientology, who are making millions off their parishioners. Don't believe me? Google scientology donation rates...

However, this is due to the ignorance of most scientologists.

Catholic priests and Buddhist monks both take similar vows of poverty and must have only limited possessions.

Both rely on the laity for food, clothing, housing etc.

It's a matter of conscience, not of income.

And that doesn't matter at all.
Wonder where all the good posters went? Look no further!

Hurry, before the Summer Nazis show up again!

User avatar
Sociobiology
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18396
Founded: Aug 18, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sociobiology » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:52 pm

Jesus Strippers wrote:
Sociobiology wrote:http://www.vaticanbank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vatican-bank.jpg

http://www.hyperborea.org/photos/full/e ... atican.jpg

look well funded to me.

also, they don't look like they are located in a certain Mission, Kansas.


funded by them though.
I think we risk becoming the best informed society that has ever died of ignorance. ~Reuben Blades

I got quite annoyed after the Haiti earthquake. A baby was taken from the wreckage and people said it was a miracle. It would have been a miracle had God stopped the earthquake. More wonderful was that a load of evolved monkeys got together to save the life of a child that wasn't theirs. ~Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Sociobiology
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18396
Founded: Aug 18, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sociobiology » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:54 pm

Wamitoria wrote:
Banold wrote:I want the state out of my faith, and my faith out of the state.

No compromise.

Income earned by religious or faith based organizations & institutions have to do with conscience, not income.

Both rely on the laity for food, clothing, housing etc.

It's a matter of conscience, not of income.

And that doesn't matter at all.

the single largest source of income by the catholic church is property rentals, in other words they rent out land but dont' have to pay taxes on the rent they are paid.
Last edited by Sociobiology on Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think we risk becoming the best informed society that has ever died of ignorance. ~Reuben Blades

I got quite annoyed after the Haiti earthquake. A baby was taken from the wreckage and people said it was a miracle. It would have been a miracle had God stopped the earthquake. More wonderful was that a load of evolved monkeys got together to save the life of a child that wasn't theirs. ~Terry Pratchett

User avatar
New Chalcedon
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12226
Founded: Sep 20, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby New Chalcedon » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:17 pm

Banold wrote:I want the state out of my faith, and my faith out of the state.

No compromise.

Income earned by religious or faith based organizations & institutions have to do with conscience, not income.

Yes there are people, mainly the Church of Scientology, who are making millions off their parishioners. Don't believe me? Google scientology donation rates...

However, this is due to the ignorance of most scientologists.

Catholic priests and Buddhist monks both take similar vows of poverty and must have only limited possessions.

Both rely on the laity for food, clothing, housing etc.

It's a matter of conscience, not of income.


And? No-one is seriously proposing to tax the income of the churches....so talk about income and vows of poverty is irrelevant.
Fuck it all. Let the world burn - there's no way roaches could do a worse job of being decent than we have.

User avatar
Bottle
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14985
Founded: Dec 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bottle » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:32 pm

New Chalcedon wrote:
Banold wrote:I want the state out of my faith, and my faith out of the state.

No compromise.

Income earned by religious or faith based organizations & institutions have to do with conscience, not income.

Yes there are people, mainly the Church of Scientology, who are making millions off their parishioners. Don't believe me? Google scientology donation rates...

However, this is due to the ignorance of most scientologists.

Catholic priests and Buddhist monks both take similar vows of poverty and must have only limited possessions.

Both rely on the laity for food, clothing, housing etc.

It's a matter of conscience, not of income.


And? No-one is seriously proposing to tax the income of the churches....so talk about income and vows of poverty is irrelevant.

Not to be difficult, but I'm absolutely proposing that. I think religious organizations should pay at least 200% of their income in taxes.
"Until evolution happens like in pokemon I'll never accept your 'evidence'!" -Ifreann
"Well, excuuuuuuse me, feminist." -Ende

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:39 pm

Bottle wrote:Not to be difficult, but I'm absolutely proposing that. I think religious organizations should pay at least 200% of their income in taxes.

I think you added an extra zero there.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Bottle
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14985
Founded: Dec 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bottle » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:39 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bottle wrote:Not to be difficult, but I'm absolutely proposing that. I think religious organizations should pay at least 200% of their income in taxes.

I think you added an extra zero there.

Nope. :)
"Until evolution happens like in pokemon I'll never accept your 'evidence'!" -Ifreann
"Well, excuuuuuuse me, feminist." -Ende

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:41 pm

Bottle wrote:Nope. :)

I don't follow. How exactly is an organization expected to pay more than they make?
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Bottle
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14985
Founded: Dec 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bottle » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:42 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bottle wrote:Nope. :)

I don't follow. How exactly is an organization expected to pay more than they make?

In this case, hopefully by liquidating all their assets and going out of business. ;)
"Until evolution happens like in pokemon I'll never accept your 'evidence'!" -Ifreann
"Well, excuuuuuuse me, feminist." -Ende

User avatar
Lerro
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1335
Founded: Aug 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Lerro » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:42 pm

Sure. Everyone knows that churches are colloborating with mysterious puppet master corporations and the military to take over the world.

User avatar
Lerro
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1335
Founded: Aug 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Lerro » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:43 pm

Bottle wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:I don't follow. How exactly is an organization expected to pay more than they make?

In this case, hopefully by liquidating all their assets and going out of business. ;)



Then churches would just leave liberal states. Just like businesses and taxpayers.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Achan, Cappedore, Celritannia, Dimetrodon Empire, Dogmeat, Google [Bot], Grinning Dragon, Kingdom of Eldovia, The Jamesian Republic, Vassenor

Advertisement

Remove ads