Taxes on Churches?

[Anglatura]

Churches should only be taxed if they make a profit. Those that do not are providing a legitimate service to their community and should be allowed to continue doing so without fear of the taxman's jackboot.

[The Rich Port]

Tax the lilly-livered religious institutes.

All of this "Christian" this and "Christian" that is making me ill.

Religion=/=Christianity. Similarly, all religions receive tax breaks from the government(s) in America.

Tax them too, then.

They want to do business in the U.S., they have to pay taxes like the rest of the businessmen.

[Parti Ouvrier]

Aw dangit TCT, why you always gotta destroy threads like this. *grumble grumble*

There is still plenty of room for everyone to argue what ought to be the law or ought to be reality. I just can't stand it when people are in clear denial or ignorance of what is the law or is reality.

Oh you mean bourgeois law. Of course Marxists have a problem with the bourgeois laws as they stand, (of course I am generalising here). For instance churches can get out of paying taxes. That is a fact that we do not agree with, but we are all for freedom of religion, but think churches should pay their way.

I don't know too much about law, so I won't comment that much about it. I will however offer a historical perspective.
Here is what Rosa Luxemburg said about religion regarding the non-payment of taxes, in fact historically speaking they have been tax consumers.
'Further, the allowance which the governments today make to the clergy come from the State Treasury, made up in the greater part from the taxes wrung from the popular masses.' And that 'everyone knows how the priests themselves make profit from the worker, extract money out of him on the occasion of marriage, baptism or burial.' [1] Of course this does not mean we Marxists are opposed to religious institutions or religion in general as

'the Social-Democracy in no way fights against religious beliefs. On the contrary, it demands complete freedom of conscience for every individual and the widest possible toleration for every faith and every opinion.' [2]

Notes

1)Socialism and the Churches - Rosa Luxemburg
http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxembu ... urches.htm
2) Ibid

[Caninope]

Religion=/=Christianity. Similarly, all religions receive tax breaks from the government(s) in America.

Tax them too, then.

They want to do business in the U.S., they have to pay taxes like the rest of the businessmen.

Churches are not businesses. They don't seek to make profits.

[Takaram]

Legalize taxing of churches and let them file for non-profit status. Right now, this is used by a cop-out from paying taxes by a rather large number of rather questionable groups (i.e. Scientology).

[Caninope]

Legalize taxing of churches and let them file for non-prophet status. Right now, this is used by a cop-out from paying taxes by a rather large number of rather questionable groups (i.e. Scientology).

That'll be hard.

[Takaram]

Legalize taxing of churches and let them file for non-prophet status. Right now, this is used by a cop-out from paying taxes by a rather large number of rather questionable groups (i.e. Scientology).

That'll be hard.

Yeah, that's for the atheist groups.

[The Rich Port]

Tax them too, then.

They want to do business in the U.S., they have to pay taxes like the rest of the businessmen.

Churches are not businesses. They don't seek to make profits.

Says who? Televangelists make a shit-ton of money for themselves while throwing chump change at "causes".

[Caninope]

That'll be hard.

Yeah, that's for the atheist groups.

So biased, you Muslim-Atheist-Commie-Nazi.

However, I am still opposed to this because it creates more entanglement between the church and the state.

[Takaram]

Yeah, that's for the atheist groups.

So biased, you Muslim-Atheist-Commie-Nazi.

However, I am still opposed to this because it creates more entanglement between the church and the state.

I'd say it'd create less. Instead of having a specific "religious organization" status, they can just file for normal 501c3 status, just like any other non-profit (Whoo!) organization.

[Caninope]

So biased, you Muslim-Atheist-Commie-Nazi.

However, I am still opposed to this because it creates more entanglement between the church and the state.

I'd say it'd create less. Instead of having a specific "religious organization" status, they can just file for normal 501c3 status, just like any other non-profit (Whoo!) organization.

But then their books would be open record for the IRS, creating more entanglement.

The Supreme Court has said taxing them (while not unconstitutional) does indeed create more entanglement.

[TheKanadian Federation]

We charge other organizations that bring in revenue, and churches should be no exception. If they want tax exemption, they can claim it for the charity work they supposedly do, and NOT for the robes the Pope only wears once (I kid you not. They burn them after he wears them.)

The Pope doesn't pay taxes in the US because he lives and works in the Vatican, several thousand miles outside the jurisdiction of the US, not because of his alleged wasteful behaviour towards clothing.

But a substantial number of his revenue streams are from the US (and nearly every other country in the world... sadly). Stop being a berk. I was making a point about the wastefulness of the Catholic Church in general.

[Bottle]

It is honestly pretty sickening to me that we still grant tax exemptions to churches in this day and age. I doubt my country (USA) will stop this practice any time soon, and it's such a shame.

[Occupied Deutschland]

It is honestly pretty sickening to me that we still grant tax exemptions to churches in this day and age. I doubt my country (USA) will stop this practice any time soon, and it's such a shame.

Why is that?
A churches tax-exempt status keeps it from having ANY kind of chance of being able to say "Hey, we pay taxes, we should get X..." It seems better for the government to keep churches removed from them as much as possible then it does for the government to snatch a portion of the money churches collect in offerings. I believe someone mentioned that they should have to fulfill the requirements of a NPO, that seems a bit more understandable then laying a blanket tax on churches just because they're churches.

[Bottle]

It is honestly pretty sickening to me that we still grant tax exemptions to churches in this day and age. I doubt my country (USA) will stop this practice any time soon, and it's such a shame.

Why is that?

In my lifetime, I have never known a single day when churches held up their end of the supposed bargain to warrant their tax-free status. If churches were actually non-profits which serve the community and refrain from pushing political candidates then I might be willing to consider granting them status similar to secular non-profits.

Although I do think religious organizations are inherently less beneficial than secular organizations so I'd probably still want to discourage them wherever possible, and they also owe several centuries of back taxes, so I wouldn't really be comfortable granting them tax exemption until they paid back their debt to society.

[Kobeanare]

It is honestly pretty sickening to me that we still grant tax exemptions to churches in this day and age. I doubt my country (USA) will stop this practice any time soon, and it's such a shame.

Why is that?
A churches tax-exempt status keeps it from having ANY kind of chance of being able to say "Hey, we pay taxes, we should get X..." It seems better for the government to keep churches removed from them as much as possible then it does for the government to snatch a portion of the money churches collect in offerings. I believe someone mentioned that they should have to fulfill the requirements of a NPO, that seems a bit more understandable then laying a blanket tax on churches just because they're churches.

Where did Bottle mention taxing churches just for being churches? That would be unconstitutional.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Why is that?

In my lifetime, I have never known a single day when churches held up their end of the supposed bargain to warrant their tax-free status. If churches were actually non-profits which serve the community and refrain from pushing political candidates then I might be willing to consider granting them status similar to secular non-profits.

Although I do think religious organizations are inherently less beneficial than secular organizations so I'd probably still want to discourage them wherever possible, and they also owe several centuries of back taxes, so I wouldn't really be comfortable granting them tax exemption until they paid back their debt to society.

Oh, so you want the religious institutions to be paying for their grandfathers...and their grandfather's grandfather's...
I guess the argument against (some) of this would be that the government shouldn't have any role in "encouraging" or "discouraging" churches, and taxes are a way to do exactly that. But...I don't know, I understand where you're coming from. God knows the government could use the money the Catholic Church used to build cathedrals throughout Europe...

[Vostelinde]

They should be taxed like everyone/everything else.

[Vragovia]

In my lifetime, I have never known a single day when churches held up their end of the supposed bargain to warrant their tax-free status. If churches were actually non-profits which serve the community and refrain from pushing political candidates then I might be willing to consider granting them status similar to secular non-profits.

Although I do think religious organizations are inherently less beneficial than secular organizations so I'd probably still want to discourage them wherever possible, and they also owe several centuries of back taxes, so I wouldn't really be comfortable granting them tax exemption until they paid back their debt to society.

Oh, so you want the religious institutions to be paying for their grandfathers...and their grandfather's grandfather's...
I guess the argument against (some) of this would be that the government shouldn't have any role in "encouraging" or "discouraging" churches, and taxes are a way to do exactly that. But...I don't know, I understand where you're coming from. God knows the government could use the money the Catholic Church used to build cathedrals throughout Europe...

that's a great idea, I like it. Maybe even signing a fake deal of some sort to make it funny and then terminating their existence in a perfectly timed surgical cut. The buildings themselves can be used for many different things, and the people that go down in the process will be missed. plus all those gold bars could build me a mini-empire like on the moon...

[Revolutopia]

A churches tax-exempt status keeps it from having ANY kind of chance of being able to say "Hey, we pay taxes, we should get X..." It seems better for the government to keep churches removed from them as much as possible then it does for the government to snatch a portion of the money churches collect in offerings. I believe someone mentioned that they should have to fulfill the requirements of a NPO, that seems a bit more understandable then laying a blanket tax on churches just because they're churches.

The problem is even through they don't paying taxes now many churches still hold the view that they deserve the right to dictate and influence government actions just as much tax-paying individuals, corporations, and unions all the while being immune to government pressures.

[Caninope]

A churches tax-exempt status keeps it from having ANY kind of chance of being able to say "Hey, we pay taxes, we should get X..." It seems better for the government to keep churches removed from them as much as possible then it does for the government to snatch a portion of the money churches collect in offerings. I believe someone mentioned that they should have to fulfill the requirements of a NPO, that seems a bit more understandable then laying a blanket tax on churches just because they're churches.

The problem is even through they don't paying taxes now many churches still hold the view that they deserve the right to dictate and influence government actions just as much tax-paying individuals, corporations, and unions all the while being immune to government pressures.

Except they are legally bound by law on the limits of their actions to keep from losing tax-exempt status.

[Dyakovo]

The problem is even through they don't paying taxes now many churches still hold the view that they deserve the right to dictate and influence government actions just as much tax-paying individuals, corporations, and unions all the while being immune to government pressures.

Except they are legally bound by law on the limits of their actions to keep from losing tax-exempt status.

Except the church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints is still tax exempt...

[Occupied Deutschland]

Except they are legally bound by law on the limits of their actions to keep from losing tax-exempt status.

Except the church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints is still tax exempt...

They were educating people about what Jesus thought about Gays getting married *nods*

(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

[Caninope]

Except they are legally bound by law on the limits of their actions to keep from losing tax-exempt status.

Except the church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints is still tax exempt...

The problem that many associate with the Church of LDS has nothing to do with that. The belief system of Mormon has led to certain voting tendencies, and there is a large group of Mormons who are politically active.

Strong Belief System + Large Group of Activists = Influence. It has little to do with the church contributing itself. Prop 8 (I believe that's the one) found a vast sum of money to the movement against it, not from the Church, but from it's members.

[Dyakovo]

Except the church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints is still tax exempt...

The problem that many associate with the Church of LDS has nothing to do with that. The belief system of Mormon has led to certain voting tendencies, and there is a large group of Mormons who are politically active.

Strong Belief System + Large Group of Activists = Influence. It has little to do with the church contributing itself. Prop 8 (I believe that's the one) found a vast sum of money to the movement against it, not from the Church, but from it's members.

I seem to recall the opposite being true... I admit I could be remembering incorrectly though...