[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

No. We aren't going to put women in the position of being charged with murder when they miscarry.

Who Said I supported charging women? It's nota always their fault. If a women gets raped or her life is in danger, we should do abortions. But other than that, we should help support these women though their pregnancy and helping to assist the Struggling and the unfournate.

Or if that doesn't work ... prosecute them.

Now I believe in a afterlife and God, and I don't know about you. But if you believe that god is fine with abortions (or heck if you don't believe in god) then I don't blame you for supporting abortion. Your life, your morals. But if you ask me I'm against in in almost all cases. I'm not gonna try to convince you and you don't try to convince me.

Uh, why are you here then? Your opposition to abortion is not just a religious matter, since you've expressed your opinion that it should be legally restricted.

There is a passage in the Bible (at least one) which deals with abortion. Would you like to quote it?

[The New California Republic]

No. We aren't going to put women in the position of being charged with murder when they miscarry.

Who Said I supported charging women? It's nota always their fault.

Come on man, you said that abortion should be considered murder, so it follows that if that was the case then women would be charged for murder if they get an abortion, or even when they miscarry.

If a women gets raped or her life is in danger, we should do abortions. But other than that, we should help support these women though their pregnancy and helping to assist the Struggling and the unfournate.

You can give a woman all the support you like, if she doesn't want to carry the fetus to term then no amount of help will change that.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

If a fetus is a person why doesn’t the census count them?

A significant percentage of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus for reasons unknown. If life begins with conception Wouldn’t that make any woman whose had more than one period a serial killer?

Does taking birth control make a woman a serial killer?

Should a stillborn be investigated for possible murder?

If the census doesn't count illegal immigrants, do illegal immigrants cease to be people?

Do people who lived before censuses or weren't for whatever reason counted in a census cease to be people?

It's not the best example, since the Census SHOULD count illegal immigrants, no measures are taken to avoid counting them, and yet they're undercounted because they don't trust Census not to leak to ICE.

[Garkland]

Who Said I supported charging women? It's nota always their fault. If a women gets raped or her life is in danger, we should do abortions. But other than that, we should help support these women though their pregnancy and helping to assist the Struggling and the unfournate.

Or if that doesn't work ... prosecute them.

Now I believe in a afterlife and God, and I don't know about you. But if you believe that god is fine with abortions (or heck if you don't believe in god) then I don't blame you for supporting abortion. Your life, your morals. But if you ask me I'm against in in almost all cases. I'm not gonna try to convince you and you don't try to convince me.

Uh, why are you here then? Your opposition to abortion is not just a religious matter, since you've expressed your opinion that it should be legally restricted.

There is a passage in the Bible (at least one) which deals with abortion. Would you like to quote it?

I'm not going to quote it because I know not everybody is gonna believe what I believe. End of story. It would be vastly different if this was say a Christian Thread. But it's not. I agree with conservatives that abortion should be illegal in most cases, however I agree with the left that we need more welfare and a bigger social net.

[Kexholm Karelia]

If a fetus is a person why doesn’t the census count them?

I’m sorry I really don’t understand this argument…? Are you saying that being counted on the government census is the ultimate arbiter of truth with regards to personhood?

A significant percentage of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus for reasons unknown. If life begins with conception Wouldn’t that make any woman whose had more than one period a serial killer?

No, a zygotę cannot undergo cell respiration, mitosis, and the potential to reproduce the way a fetus can

Does taking birth control make a woman a serial killer?

No

Should a stillborn be investigated for possible murder?

No, because no one intentionally killed it

[Kexholm Karelia]

Who Said I supported charging women? It's nota always their fault.

Come on man, you said that abortion should be considered murder, so it follows that if that was the case then women would be charged for murder if they get an abortion, or even when they miscarry.

If a women gets raped or her life is in danger, we should do abortions. But other than that, we should help support these women though their pregnancy and helping to assist the Struggling and the unfournate.

You can give a woman all the support you like, if she doesn't want to carry the fetus to term then no amount of help will change that.

What about the rights of the fetus?

[San Lumen]

If a fetus is a person why doesn’t the census count them?

I’m sorry I really don’t understand this argument…? Are you saying that being counted on the government census is the ultimate arbiter of truth with regards to personhood?

A significant percentage of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus for reasons unknown. If life begins with conception Wouldn’t that make any woman whose had more than one period a serial killer?

No, a zygotę cannot undergo cell respiration, mitosis, and the potential to reproduce the way a fetus can

Does taking birth control make a woman a serial killer?

No

Should a stillborn be investigated for possible murder?

No, because no one intentionally killed it

When does a fetus become a person then?

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want? What about that case in Paraguay of the 11 year old girl? That’s ok to you because a fetus has equal rights?

[The New California Republic]

Come on man, you said that abortion should be considered murder, so it follows that if that was the case then women would be charged for murder if they get an abortion, or even when they miscarry.


You can give a woman all the support you like, if she doesn't want to carry the fetus to term then no amount of help will change that.

What about the rights of the fetus?

You are gonna have to expand on this, as the comment doesn't seem related to a specific point that I was talking about, it seems like a generic comment.

[Atheris]

There is a passage in the Bible (at least one) which deals with abortion. Would you like to quote it?

If anyone's wondering, there actually isn't any specific quote about abortion. There are quotes about God's children being made in the womb, so I guess that could be a point in the pro-life side's favor, but nothing specifically about abortion outside from priest-mandated abortion for adultery seen below:

19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

[The New California Republic]

Should a stillborn be investigated for possible murder?

No, because no one intentionally killed it

But how do we know?

[Kexholm Karelia]

When does a fetus become a person then?

Pretty sure I already answered that in the post

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want? What about that case in Paraguay of the 11 year old girl? That’s ok to you because a fetus has equal rights?

You keep pointing towards extreme cases, when I have already given statistics showing that these cases are extremely rare. I have never argued for a total and absolute ban on abortions, in the extreme cases that you mentioned, for example, it is morally justified, but most cases are not nearly like that

[Esalia]

If the census doesn't count illegal immigrants, do illegal immigrants cease to be people?

Do people who lived before censuses or weren't for whatever reason counted in a census cease to be people?

It's not the best example, since the Census SHOULD count illegal immigrants, no measures are taken to avoid counting them, and yet they're undercounted because they don't trust Census not to leak to ICE.

My example is more that the census doesn't determine your personhood. Someone not counted in the census isn't inherently a non-person, otherwise people who moved to a country after a census, uncounted illegal immigrants, or anyone else not counted are no longer persons.

There are much better arguments against fetal personhood than them not being counted in censuses.

[San Lumen]

When does a fetus become a person then?

Pretty sure I already answered that in the post

Should a rape victim have to carry a child to term that they don’t want? What about that case in Paraguay of the 11 year old girl? That’s ok to you because a fetus has equal rights?

You keep pointing towards extreme cases, when I have already given statistics showing that these cases are extremely rare. I have never argued for a total and absolute ban on abortions, in the extreme cases that you mentioned, for example, it is morally justified, but most cases are not nearly like that

When should it be allowed?

[Kexholm Karelia]

Pretty sure I already answered that in the post

You keep pointing towards extreme cases, when I have already given statistics showing that these cases are extremely rare. I have never argued for a total and absolute ban on abortions, in the extreme cases that you mentioned, for example, it is morally justified, but most cases are not nearly like that

When should it be allowed?

Ideally only when the mother’s life is threatened, and in the cases of rape and incest. All of these combine are less than 11% of abortions, however

[Garkland]

It's not the best example, since the Census SHOULD count illegal immigrants, no measures are taken to avoid counting them, and yet they're undercounted because they don't trust Census not to leak to ICE.

My example is more that the census doesn't determine your personhood. Someone not counted in the census isn't inherently a non-person, otherwise people who moved to a country after a census, uncounted illegal immigrants, or anyone else not counted are no longer persons.

There are much better arguments against fetal personhood than them not being counted in censuses.

And anyways, animals have rights and there are not even people!! Because they are alive...

Now to be honest I don't think people who support abortion are these monsters (I hope you don't think that about me). I used to be pro life. But after analyzing myself and really thinking about it, it truly is a terrible thing. I would not be surprised that in the next 50 years it becomes socially and legally wrong .

[San Lumen]

When should it be allowed?

Ideally only when the mother’s life is threatened, and in the cases of rape and incest. All of these combine are less than 11% of abortions, however

At least your willing you make exceptions. I still don’t see where you get the right to make medical decisions for someone else

[San Lumen]

My example is more that the census doesn't determine your personhood. Someone not counted in the census isn't inherently a non-person, otherwise people who moved to a country after a census, uncounted illegal immigrants, or anyone else not counted are no longer persons.

There are much better arguments against fetal personhood than them not being counted in censuses.

And anyways, animals have rights and there are not even people!! Because they are alive...

Now to be honest I don't think people who support abortion are these monsters (I hope you don't think that about me). I used to be pro life. But after analyzing myself and really thinking about it, it truly is a terrible thing. I would not be surprised that in the next 50 years it becomes socially and legally wrong .

You say your not pro life except you want abortion banned in all circumstances with the sole exception of a toxic pregnancy. If that’s not pro life than tell me what is?

[The Marlborough]

There is no person in the world who is entitled to the use of our bodies without consent.

Conscription exists as does opt out organ donation.

[The New California Republic]

I used to be pro life. But after analyzing myself and really thinking about it, it truly is a terrible thing. I would not be surprised that in the next 50 years it becomes socially and legally wrong .

Being pro-life would be against the law? That's going too far.

And you are pro-choice? You certainly don't seem like it considering you want women who get abortions to be considered murderers...

[Kexholm Karelia]

Ideally only when the mother’s life is threatened, and in the cases of rape and incest. All of these combine are less than 11% of abortions, however

At least your willing you make exceptions. I still don’t see where you get the right to make medical decisions for someone else

Like the unborn human?

[San Lumen]

At least your willing you make exceptions. I still don’t see where you get the right to make medical decisions for someone else

Like the unborn human?

What right do you have to make a medical decision for someone else?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

When should it be allowed?

Ideally only when the mother’s life is threatened, and in the cases of rape and incest. All of these combine are less than 11% of abortions, however

See, that doesn't really make sense. How is it less "murder" to abort a fetus resulting from rape than it is to abort any other fetus?

[Kexholm Karelia]

Like the unborn human?

What right do you have to make a medical decision for someone else?

?

You just repeated the same thing

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

Or if that doesn't work ... prosecute them.



Uh, why are you here then? Your opposition to abortion is not just a religious matter, since you've expressed your opinion that it should be legally restricted.

There is a passage in the Bible (at least one) which deals with abortion. Would you like to quote it?

I'm not going to quote it because I know not everybody is gonna believe what I believe. End of story. It would be vastly different if this was say a Christian Thread. But it's not. I agree with conservatives that abortion should be illegal in most cases, however I agree with the left that we need more welfare and a bigger social net.

There are probably many more abortions nowadays, than are recorded. Early in pregnancy, Mifepristone is so safe and effective it doesn't need a specialist consultation. That is still desirable of course: more safe is better than safe enough. However legal abortions have become harder to get in some states and I'm sure some women are just buying the pill and taking the slight risk for themselves. Either to avoid being hassled by unpleasant people outside a clinic, or just to save the time and expense of travelling to the one clinic in the state. And we don't know about it, because why should they tell us? Republicans would just go after the drug itself, adding an entirely destructive "War on Drugs" aspect.

More welfare is totally correct, and relevant also is that poverty is 16.6% among children <18 (12% all ages) so more welfare should be directed at children. I think we should be double counting: giving parents enough support to lift themselves out of poverty, but even more than that to help their children.

When that's done, it might reveal some bad parents who spend all the money meant for their children, on themselves. I'd take away their power to spend online, which might be effective in itself (impulse buying has been hugely empowered by online shopping, idiots sometimes think they're "investing in collectibles" or something), but would also force them into public situations where they're more likely to feel shame about indulging themselves at the expense of their children. It's a bit lateral I know, but there have to be steps before "take the children away" which is enormously hurtful to them and their children.

One more thing about abortion though: the only common ground both sides have, is that preventing abortion is best done by the woman not getting pregnant in the first place. Do you support easy access to contraception? (subsidized or free, no questions asked, besides an initial doctor's consultation for women). How about instruction in schools, on the use of contraception?

[The Alma Mater]

There is a passage in the Bible (at least one) which deals with abortion. Would you like to quote it?

If anyone's wondering, there actually isn't any specific quote about abortion. There are quotes about God's children being made in the womb, so I guess that could be a point in the pro-life side's favor, but nothing specifically about abortion outside from priest-mandated abortion for adultery seen below:

19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

There is also one discussing what the appropiate punishment is if one accidentally causes a miscarriage.
However, here we see the problem of translation - some say the punishment is "an optional fine, if the husband desires it", others "kill the men responsible".
A small difference.